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How are these Great Beings explained?

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Hindus will not associate any riff-raff with Krishna. Krishna will return after 425,000 years - that is clearly mentioned in our scriptures. All those who claim to be so are charlatans for us.Zoroaster was a renegade to the Indo-Iranian religion, a heretic, who believed in one God while there are many. He was the first to say that there is one God. He shares the responsibility for much of the blood-shed and sorrow in the world today. We do not have Angels, prophets or messengers in Hinduism.
The difficulties with discussing using Hindu Scriptures the time of Return of Krishna are at least two aspects. One is the authenticity of the Scriptures. Second is the correct interpretations.
As these Scriptures are from a very old time, and we do not have evidence they were written by Krishna Himself, we would have difficulty to know DIRECTLY if they are indeed authentic, and if they are which parts are authentic, and which part of the scriptures are perhaps changed either by the mistakes of others, or intentionally.
This is why I personally would prefer not to go though that discussion. Some Baha'is have.
But let's say that in fact in the Hindu Scriptures, there are verses saying that Krishna returns in 425000 years, and let's say it is indeed authentic.
In my view that does not contradict with Baha'i belief that Bahaullah is the Return of Krishna, because, there is a famous saying of Krishna, that Whenever, and Wherever the Religion needs to be established again, He, the Krishna descends Himself. In this sense, I believe He already descended Himself, and will again descend Himself many times again and again, including in 425000 years from now.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
My question is how do you know that there is a God? And why just one and why not many? .
I would say, if we want to ask this question, why not first ask, what evidence is there that there is even any God or Gods at all? Then after this we can go one step farther, and ask why One and not many!
If an Atheist ask you this, what would you answer? By the way I am not sure what your current belief is with regards to God or Gods.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
In my view that does not contradict with Baha'i belief that Bahaullah is the Return of Krishna, because, there is a famous saying of Krishna, that Whenever, and Wherever the Religion needs to be established again, He, the Krishna descends Himself.
At the moment, Hindu religion does not need any re-establishment. It is doing fine. There would be deterioration of 'dharma' at a future time and Krishna would come at that time - 425,000 years from now.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
If an Atheist ask you this, what would you answer? By the way I am not sure what your current belief is with regards to God or Gods.

I would say, if we want to ask this question, why not first ask, what evidence is there that there is even any God or Gods at all? Then after this we can go one step farther, and ask why One and not many!
I would say no evidence. Gods and Goddesses are characters in our mythology around whom our people weaved many stories to give direction to the society, just like there are Aesop's fables or the stories of Panchatantra in India. One checks the message that these stories give. Historicity is no consideration.

And what does historicity prove? Does it prove the existence of God? Does it prove that Jesus is/was the son of God (through ..)? Does it prove that this God sent message through Moses or Mohammad, or manfiested as Bahaullah. Does it prove that Joseph Smith was a prophet or that Mirza Ghul;am Ahmad was the Mahdi (another returning personage).

Yes. We must ask this question and remove the root from where all evil and falsehood springs. To say a nice, wise thing, one does not need to be a messenger or whatever of God. One can state one's views. Hindu sages have done that without claiming prophethood and Buddha too did the same.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
LOL. You have a single verse that says "we perused not the books which men possess" and hundreds of attestations to Baha'u'llah reading stuff. Instead of adjusting your reading of the first text in line with the evidence of your eyes, you say that in view of [your understanding of a translation of] the first text, the evidence need not be considered !
Well, you surely know there are many statements from the Bab and Bahaullah, that His knowledge is divine revelation. Abdulbaha explained the statement of Bahaullah:


"We come to the explanation of the words of Bahá’u’lláh when He says: “O King! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing.”[72] This is the station of divine revelation. It is not a sensible, but an intelligible reality. It is sanctified from and transcendent above past, present, and future. It is a comparison and an analogy—a metaphor and not a literal truth. It is not the condition that is commonly understood by the human mind when it is said that someone was asleep and then awoke, but signifies a passage from one state to another. For example, sleeping is the state of repose, and wakefulness is the state of motion. Sleeping is the state of silence, and wakefulness is the state of utterance. Sleeping is the state of concealment, and wakefulness is that of manifestation. For example, in Persian and Arabic it is said that the earth was asleep, spring came, and it awoke; or that the earth was dead, spring came, and it found life again. These expressions are comparisons, analogies, similes, and figurative interpretations in the realm of inner meaning.
Briefly, the Manifestations of God have ever been and will ever be luminous Realities, and no change or alteration ever takes place in Their essence. At most, before Their revelation They are still and silent, like one who is asleep, and after Their revelation They are eloquent and effulgent, like one who is awake."
Some answered Questions

And this is what Bahaullah is stating with regards to the Knowledge of the Manifestation of God:


"As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Daystars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self." Gleanings from the Writings of Bahaullah


Similar statements are seen from the Bab:


"God beareth Me witness, I was not a man of learning, for I was trained as a merchant. In the year sixty God graciously infused my soul with the conclusive evidences and weighty knowledge which characterize Him Who is the Testimony of God—may peace be upon Him—until finally in that year I proclaimed God’s hidden Cause and unveiled its well-guarded Pillar, in such wise that no one could refute it. “That he who should perish might perish with a clear proof before him and he who should live might live by clear proof.” Selection from the Writings of the Bab

And this what Bahaullah says with regards to the Bab, and generally the Manifestation of God:


"Therefore, should a person arise and bring forth a myriad verses, discourses, epistles, and prayers, none of which have been acquired through learning, what conceivable excuse could justify those that reject them, and deprive themselves of the potency of their grace? What answer could they give when once their soul hath ascended and departed from its gloomy temple? " Book of Certitude


And even before the Book Certitude was revealed, Bahaullah in another Tablet had made similar statements with regards to His own knowledge:


"Should it be My wish to recount all that hath been revealed in the past, I would most certainly be able to do so by virtue of that which God hath bestowed upon Me of the wonders of His knowledge and power. " Gems of divine mysteries - Bahaullah

And there are many more statements like these, as you are surely aware. The point is, Baha'is who believe Bahaullah was All-Knowing, are not exaggerating about Him in a sense that they do not attribute more knowledge to Bahaullah, more than Bahaullah attributed to Himself.

"Know thou moreover that thy letter reached Our presence and We perceived and perused its contents. We noted the questions thou hast asked and will readily answer thee...."
(Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 183)

"Numerous letters from thee have been presented before Our Throne. We have perused them..."
(Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 196)

"THIS Wronged One hath perused thy letter in the Most Great Prison..."
(Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 266)

"Thine epistle was received, thy question was noted, "
(Baha'u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 3)

"ince thy letter had not reached me then, I began with some words of reproach. Now, thy new missive hath dispelled that feeling..."
(Baha'u'llah, Four Valleys, p. 63)

"O thou wayfarer upon the paths of justice,... thy missive arrived. I was apprised thereby of thy question, " (Baha'u'llah, Jawahiru'l-Asrar)

"Your letter reached Us, and We have perused it, with all its allusions..."
(Baha'u'llah, Commentary on the Surah of the Sun - Cole 1994)

"I verily inhaled the pure fragrances of the garment of thy love, and " attained thy very meeting from perusing thy letter. And since I noted thy mention of thy death in God..." (Baha'u'llah, Seven Valleys, p. 2)

"Thy letter was received, and We perused it and heard thy call."
(Tabernacle_of_Unity Oct2014)

"When this wronged one was a child, he read about the subjugation of the Banu-Qurayza, in a book attributed to Mulla Baqir Majlisi, and immediately became so grieved and saddened that the Pen is unable to recount it,.." (Tablet of Banu Qurayza).

"Although We never felt disposed to peruse other peoples' writings, yet as some had questioned Us concerning him, We felt it necessary to refer to his books, in order that We might answer Our questioners with knowledge and understanding. [If he didn't read the book, he would not give a knowledgeable answer] His works, in the Arabic tongue, were, however, not available, until one day a certain man informed Us that one of his compositions, entitled Irshadu'l-'Avam, could be found in this city. ... We sent for the book, and kept it with Us a few days. It was probably referred to twice. The second time, We accidentally came upon the story of the "Mi'raj" of Muhammad, ... We gathered from his statements that unless a man be deeply versed in [20 sciences], he can never attain to a proper understanding "
(Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 184)

Yes, Bahaullah according to these statements appear to have said He read the letters He received.
But we also have accounts when Bahaullah knew what other people had said or prayed to God, without actually Bahaullah being present there. Even an account when a man who had never gone to school wanted to write a letter to Bahaullah and ask questions, but because he did not know writing, he just sent a blank paper, and when Bahullah received it, He was very pleased. He said that when a person’s heart is pure, there is no need for words. He knew what the old man wanted to say even though he had not written anything. Then Baha’u’llah wrote him a loving letter in reply, and answered all of his questions. (Stories of Baha'u'llah - Baha'i Blog)

And such stories are compatible with the Writings of Bahaullah. For example Bahaullah wrote:


"O Czar of Russia! .... We, verily, have heard the thing for which thou didst supplicate thy Lord, whilst secretly communing with Him. Wherefore, the breeze of My loving-kindness wafted forth, and the sea of My mercy surged, and We answered thee in truth. Thy Lord, verily, is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise." The summon of the Lord of the Host

"Thus have We informed thee of that which lieth concealed within the hearts of men. Verily, thy Lord is the Almighty, the All-Knowing." Bahaullah, Surrah of Fuad



So now the question is, if Bahaullah's knowledge is identical with God as He said, and He knows the secrets in the hearts of men, and we do have many historical accounts from the Bab and Bahaullah where they knew the question of people, before they ask, then why we still see in Bahaullah's writings He read the letters? Is it possible a person already knows a particular saying in a book from his memory, and still read it from a book, just because someone made a request? Or in the case of Bahaullah, is it possible He wrote that He read their letters, as a way to just inform them He is giving a reply to their questions?

Perhaps another option is, both the claims of Bahaullah, and all those accounts are false?

But if that is the case, what are we going to do with all those prophecies which are compatible with Manifestation of the Bab and Bahaullah? What are we going to do, with all the wise ideas Bahaullah wrote? These are false too? But, I think to declare them false we need to prove Him wrong. What are we going with the fact that, no body can actually find and prove there is any errors in the writings of Bahaullah, though He has about 17000 works. Could a man, write so many volumes of books from His own mind, yet, no body can prove errors in them?

Now I had spent quite sometime researching the Traditions Bahaullah referred to them in the Book of certitude, while using online libraries of Islamic Traditions as well as others having the text searching tools. I can tell, that those traditions are not from 1, 2 or 3 brief books. They are from at least 15 books of religious traditions. One of these books is a collection of 110 volumes of books, called Bihar alanwar. And these books are each from some hundreds to more than a thousands pages. It means, if Bahaullah was to refer to these traditions from these books by actually having to physically read, find and quote them, He had to go through tens of thousands to several hundreds thousands of pages to get the info, and put them together. This is because, the traditions Bahaullah is referring to, are well spread as pieces of information within all these books. So, the question is, why then among all the companions of Bahaullah, there is not even a single witness that Bahaullah had these books or He had written His Books, while having all these Books around Him to look up the traditions in them?

Now consider that, for instance when Shoghi Effendi wrote the book "God passes by" , which also has many historical and religious traditions, he had to actually gather 200 books around him in order to get the info he needs to put in his book, but with regards to Bahaullah and the Bab, all those who witness Them writing Books or Tablets, have said, They wrote their Books from their own mind?
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I can agree with that. Hinduism was a Religion established thousands years ago. I however believe we do need a new Religion for our new age, and I found Baha'i Faith to be the one.

I don't think the Baha'i faith is a new religion. It is a slightly altered version of previous Abrahamic religions. There isn't much new in it at all, other than a new prophet. Same old dogma though. It's far closer to a social reform movement, like Arya Samaj in India.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I don't think the Baha'i faith is a new religion. It is a slightly altered version of previous Abrahamic religions. There isn't much new in it at all, other than a new prophet. Same old dogma though. It's far closer to a social reform movement, like Arya Samaj in India.
As someone who grew up in a Muslim country, and lived among the Muslims, I have to tell you the Baha'i Faith is totally different.
I mean totally a new way of life, culture, Laws, interpretations and beliefs in comparison to what the Muslims do. Now other Abrahamic Religions are even older than Islam, and have a stronger flavour of older ages.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
As someone who grew up in a Muslim country, and lived among the Muslims, I have to tell you the Baha'i Faith is totally different.
I mean totally a new way of life, culture, Laws, interpretations and beliefs in comparison to what the Muslims do. Now other Abrahamic Religions are even older than Islam, and have a stronger flavour of older ages.

When you're close to Islam, I can see that you would see it as 'totally different'. That makes sense. A kid from Eastern Canada will move to the western provinces, and see life as being 'totally different'. But the nature of God has stayed the same, the morals haven't shifted much, it's still book based, there's still a need for a leader (prophet, manifestation, whatever), there's still a dismissal of all other faiths, perhaps not as overtly, but it's still there. It's still dualistic in nature and a proselytizing faith.

So, from an outsider's POV, it's really not that different. If you want really different, you have to move to atheism, or to dharmic faiths. Then it's truly really different. My faith, for example, has a very different concept of God, differing morals, it's not book based, there's no need for a prophet, and we don't dismiss other faiths as invalid, it's monistic, and we don't proselytize.

I'm not saying it's not different, I'm just debating that it's not as different as you might think, or wish it to be.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
For Hindus that force is God, so it's not dependent on God, much less men who claimed to be God.

That is good to know. Thank you.

As to the Great Beings, we see them as more than Men, "For physical things are signs and imprints of spiritual things; every lower thing is an image and counterpart of a higher thing."

To me they are the Image of God. Each was given One of Gods Names and though they had all the Attributes, Each revealed God to a given measure. They are all One with the Universal Attractive Force.

To me, the aim with Faith, is by our own free will give all in our physical life over to becoming part of this oneness.

We really have no way of knowing what this is, but it may be where we are no longer an individual Soul, we exist only in Oneness.

Maybe that is also your goal?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In my view, it was a trick to imply, 'Oh, we're just like you,' to get a foot in the door for follow-up conversion. The Christians in India have been using similar tactics for years. In the beginning stress the similarities, to gain confidence. Send the big guns in later. Few Hindus would fall for it, and those who do, we can do without.

Maybe not, if indeed it is all part of the Universal Attractive Force.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Extremely dualistic, good versus evil. Only two forces in the world. About as far away from Hindu thought as one can get. Overly simplistic.

It is bigger indeed. To me there is only the Positive force and then there is the lack of it.

Each Attribute is a Sun, lack of that Attribute is its darkness.

This is a thought written about 25 years ago I share on this idea.

Heartache, Happiness,
Agony, Ecstasy,
Sorrow, Joy.
Loneliness, Reunion.
Darkness, Light.
Concealed, Revealed.
Opposites attract,
negatives highlight positives.
Pain brings happiness,
tribulation brings Joy.
Oh God may this life be full of negatives,
so we can learn to appreciate the positives.

Tony Bristow-Stagg B.E. 148

After 25 years, I now see this thought as being but one on many many ways to look at it.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't think the Baha'i faith is a new religion. It is a slightly altered version of previous Abrahamic religions. There isn't much new in it at all, other than a new prophet. Same old dogma though. It's far closer to a social reform movement, like Arya Samaj in India.

The Oneness of God in all His Names and Faiths would suggest that this is indeed a New Day, a new thought not previously considered.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Haha. There is no end to what silly people can believe.

That is true. There is no end to what silly people believe in. But within each religion, including yours, there is a great deal of truth, wisdom, and practical advice for good living. But when religion becomes overtaken by superstition and prejudice and brings out the worst in people rather than the best, then its best to leave that religion altogether.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Indeed, most Hindus of India are quite happy to just live the life of the society. It's converts who do most of the thinking and debate. The same is probably true of the Catholics of South America, or Europe.

As for the list, I would put one of the Baha'i 'manifestations' on it as well ... Buddha. The rest seem to be in a completer different category altogether. Not so much about being God, but far more about making egocentric claims about it. Different paradigms.

My list was just a start. It was examples only, like naming a couple of villages in New Zealand, as examples.. There would be 10 000 more. Mahavira would be like Buddha, and there is no reason whatsoever he shouldn't be on your list as a founder of a major religion.

Ha ha. We are not going to have too much disagreement about adding Buddha to the list.

I think the claim that Krishna is God incarnate is egocentric along with those that make claims that their leader was His incarnation. But that's just my very biased POV.

It seems that all the people you listed come under the shadow of other great teachers. So belief in Krishna has endured for thousands of years and according to the link provided 55- 70% of Hindus have Krishna as a focal point for their devotions. Then if you have about 25% as Saivite Hindus like yourself, it doesn't leave room for too many other major movements. Buddha has a following that has endured two thousand five hundred years with a following of half a million people worldwide. Both Krishna and Buddha have sacred writings that allude to their life and teachings. The Saivites are the only movement in Hinduism that comes remotely close in regards to such a following that has endured over the centuries.

Mahavira - Wikipedia

Timeline of Jainism - Wikipedia

Mahavira has played a central role to the development of Jainism which is another important movement in India that has endured and does seem distinct from Hinduism. Interesting that he was around during the Buddha's time and I wonder if He was influenced by an outpouring of spiritual forces that had propelled Buddhism and so he was more a reformer of Hindu teachings along Buddhist lines.

I think Hinduism and many of their related Faiths are wonderful but the biggest problem I see is the disdain that many of their adherents express for the Abrahamic religions.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Bahai inconsistances are strictly between their faith's intrepretation of other faiths facts. Its a huge inconsistancy. It did not bother me that some believe in The Eucharist ans others do not. To me and to many humdum low key Catholics 'here', it really doesnt matter.

God religions by their nature has inconsistances. The abrahamic religions say that god is a mystery. We are limited. No man can get it right.

I see no such inconsistencies, but I can see why you think that.

My other question not answered. Bahai is such a new faith even to the point of one of the head people still lived in our century. 1921 or something he was born. Cant figure the name now. These guys were men. When did the divinity stop in the 18 to 19 hundreds to now?

In a sense it hasn't. Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God whose Divine mission was disclosed to Him while in prison in 1852. He passed away 1892 but left a will authorising Abdu'l-Baha to be the leader of the Baha'i Faith, authorised interpreter and expounder of His teachings, and the perfect exemplar of Baha'i teachings. Abdu'l-Baha passed away in 1921 and left a will authorising twin successors. First their was the appointment of his eldest grandson, Shoghi Effendi to be the leader of the Baha'i faith and authorised interpreter. Shoghi Effendi passed away in 1957. Second, Abdu'l-Baha also appointed the Universal House of Justice that would be the head of the Baha'i Faith and established in 1963. We see that this international elected body can be the recipient of Divine guidance, but not to provide a revelation like Baha'u'llah as they are under the shadow of is revelation. Our international governing body is authorised to resolve difficult matters that pertain to the Baha'i writings, and can enact laws and repeal those same laws depending on the exigencies of the time. They provide ongoing guidance to the international Baha'i community that is Divinely inspired.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
That is good to know. Thank you.

As to the Great Beings, we see them as more than Men, "For physical things are signs and imprints of spiritual things; every lower thing is an image and counterpart of a higher thing."

To me they are the Image of God. Each was given One of Gods Names and though they had all the Attributes, Each revealed God to a given measure. They are all One with the Universal Attractive Force.

Maybe that is also your goal?

My goal is moksha, as it its with all Hindus. Yes I know the Baha'i belief. There is no need to repeat it incessantly.
Maybe not, if indeed it is all part of the Universal Attractive Force.
I don't see how this relates at all to the point made.
The Oneness of God in all His Names and Faiths would suggest that this is indeed a New Day, a new thought not previously considered.

No it doesn't. The Baha'i belief doesn't suggest anything other than the Baha'i belief. It's nothing new. there were universalist sects before Baha'i, and Oneness existed as a concept. It's all been considered.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't think the Baha'i faith is a new religion. It is a slightly altered version of previous Abrahamic religions. There isn't much new in it at all, other than a new prophet. Same old dogma though. It's far closer to a social reform movement, like Arya Samaj in India.

Its entirely different from Christianity. But what do I know? I grew up with Christianity and was Christian. I then converted to the Baha'i Faith and have been a Baha'i for 27 years.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I think Hinduism and many of their related Faiths are wonderful but the biggest problem I see is the disdain that many of their adherents express for the Abrahamic religions.

I've seen disdain in all directions, from Hindu sect to Hindu sect, from Christian denomination to another Christian denomination, from Sunni to Shia to Ammadiyya, from Baha'i to everyone, and everyone to Baha'i, and many more, like theist atheist, and vice versa. It remains within the individual adherent, and isn't overwhelmingly specific to any religion. It's also is used as an accusation, as you just did. For example, when I've expressed a non-belief in a certain concept in a faith I'm not in, I've occasionally gotten the response, 'I see. So you hate us, do you?"

So, like other trigger words, I'd prefer to avoid it as much as possible. Sometimes that's admittedly difficult.
 
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