How are these Great Beings explained?

[CG Didymus]

Fascinating. Despite the original reason for me entering this thread, and disputing that view, and you temporarily agreeing to it, now you've totally forgotten, and regressed to it. I wonder why, as soon a sth e Baha'i' start thinking outside the box, they get drawn right back to the party dogma. That shows either disdain or disinterest, I'm not sure which. Your statement makes no more sense than me talking to a Christian assuming he worships Baha'u'llah. Really out there.

Although obviously now, my words go uncognised, I'll repeat them. I don't worship Krishna. I'm A Saivite. I worship Siva. Krishna is not a 'manifestation', but an avatar, and He is God for Vaishnavites)

Krishna is not the giant among teachers. He's God. There is no one giant among Gods. Vishnu, Siva, Shakti, Mother Kali, depends on who is Supreme for each adherent.

Giants among teachers ... sure Adi Shankara, Sri Caitanya, Swami Chinmayanada, Sri Ramakrishna, Tirumular, Patanjali, Vivekenanda, Ramana Maharishi, and countless other enlightened sages that have temporarily inhabited physical bodies for the betterment of mankind.

But then, what do I know?

I wonder how much of the Krishna story Baha'is even believe? They believe in Jesus but say a lot of what is said about him isn't historical fact but symbolic. So what do they even believe is literal fact about what is written about Krishna? Was he real or mythical?

 

[CG Didymus]

You really need to do more comparative religion reading. I think. Zoroastrian philosophy is incredibly similar to Abrahamic thinking, and not at all close to the dharmic view. The dharmic religions are four: Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, and Jainism.

I thought Zoroastrians were dualistic. That they have a good and an evil god? But I'm sure Baha'is have a way to make them believe in the one true God.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is a wrong reminder, if we go back through this thread I know this has been referenced before, now I just say the following;

The Number of Manifestatioms listed in the Koran is 25

Prophets and messengers in Islam - Wikipedia

Baha'u'llah Lists some more and has said the number is many, many times more, but true records have been lost for many of them. They also go back a very long time,well before records existed.

That is only on this earth as well, as then we have a Universe of possibilities to consider.

Regards Tony

Do Baha'is agree with that list... Especially that Adam was the first manifestation? Oh, I forgot to check, was Krishna on the list?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Argubaly the resurrection narrative greatly contributed to the Christian concept of a life after death.

I ask why the Saints are not mentioned, as they were also resurrected. This to me explains Abdul'baha's explanation.

Matthew 27:52 "and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many."

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do Baha'is agree with that list... Especially that Adam was the first manifestation? Oh, I forgot to check, was Krishna on the list?

The Koran List, yes. There is no set List except for the Kitabi-i- quan, but quite a few have been mentioned through various writings of Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi.

Krishna is not mentioned in the Koran but the Koran gives guidance as to a Prophet and when reaearched some Muslims see Krishna as a Prophet.

Krishna is confirmed in the Baha'i Writings.

Consider it is hard enough for people to believe without adding pages of unproveable facts about unknown Manifestations.

This is a link to this question on Bahai Library Forum - List of Prophets - Baha'i Library Forum

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

I ask why the Saints are not mentioned, as they were also resurrected. This to me explains Abdul'baha's explanation.

Matthew 27:52 "and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many."

Regards Tony

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Yes, There were quite a few strange occurances going on after Jesus was resurrected! Others coming out of their graves and appearing in Jerusalem, an earthquake, rock being broken up. It was a great miracle indeed. Perhaps the greatest miracle of all is that it went completely unnoticed and wasn't mentioned in any history books of the time.

 

[oldbadger]

The Great Beings are the source of the Universal Attractive Force that hold the Universe in Harmony.

So Jesus knew how to hold the Universe in harmony?
He was a handworker turned healer, but yiou don't believe in healers..... !

"....Divine and all-encompassing Wisdom hath ordained that motion be an inseparable concomitant of existence, whether inherently or accidentally, spiritually or materially.

Spiritually inseparable concomitant? Spiritually?
And I don't get how Chaos can be inherent.

This movement must be governed by some check or rein, some regulator or director, otherwise order will be disrupted and the spheres and bodies will fall from the heavens.

No they won't. They'll be in 'the heavens' for the entire lifespan of our Universe.

For this reason God brought into being a universal attractive force between these bodies to hold sway over them and govern them, a force deriving from the firm ties, the mighty correspondence and affinity that exist between the realities of these limitless worlds.

We now can estimate how many galaxies exist within our Universe. They are limited.

By the operation of this attractive force those holy and resplendent suns, with their luminous worlds, satellites and planets, circling and orbiting in their heavens, at once exerted attraction and were subject to it, induced motion and were themselves moved, began orbiting and set into orbit other bodies, shone forth and caused others to shine....." Tablet of the Universe" Abdul'baha (Provisional translation)

Here was Abdul Baha's big chance to describe the planets as 'reflective' or 'reflecting their sun's radiance', he could even have popped the odd 'spiritual' in......... and he missed it, causing them all to be luminous.

Regards Tony[/QUOTE]

 

[oldbadger]

Consider it is hard enough for people to believe without adding pages of unproveable facts about unknown Manifestations.

You said it................

 

[oldbadger]

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Yes, There were quite a few strange occurances going on after Jesus was resurrected! Others coming out of their graves and appearing in Jerusalem, an earthquake, rock being broken up. It was a great miracle indeed. Perhaps the greatest miracle of all is that it went completely unnoticed and wasn't mentioned in any history books of the time.

Very good.
The edits and additions of truly 'love-struck' evangelists and faithful have been cemented into the Christian Creed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So Jesus knew how to hold the Universe in harmony?
He was a handworker turned healer, but yiou don't believe in healers....

Yes and I have never said anything about Material and Spiritual Healing.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Wasn't a belief in a physical resurrection part of the gospel that early Christians taught? So if the Baha'is are correct about the resurrection, then the Jews were right about rejecting Christianity.

Yes........ they were.

 

[oldbadger]

I wonder how much of the Krishna story Baha'is even believe? They believe in Jesus but say a lot of what is said about him isn't historical fact but symbolic. So what do they even believe is literal fact about what is written about Krishna? Was he real or mythical?

A Jesus who could not walk on water, heal miraculously, bring back the deceased or resurrect self from death ceases to be a Great Being, becomes just a Land-Displaced Peasant who carried on an uprising after its leader was arrested and later executed.

Oh well, they've got one thing right.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes and I have never said anything about Material and Spiritual Healing.

Regards Tony

Would you like to say something about Spiritual Healing now?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Would you like to say something about Spiritual Healing now?

The Great Beings can do as they wish. Their Greatest Gift and healing is Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

As I recall, the Baha'is were being accused of contradictions and inconsistencies. I was simply highlighting the obvious contradictions of Hinduism. One Hindu believes in many gods, another in one god providing it is not the God of Abraham, and yet another is an atheist. The reasons for those contradictions were explained by @Vinayaka as relating to Hinduism being an umbrella term for many religions and traditions. That's reasonable.

Hindus from what I can see make statements about respecting diversity, see their own faith as supreme, and don't believe in the God of Abraham. That is a generalisation, but its what I seem to be hearing from two Hindus currently on this thread and from my reading.

Both religions have inconsistances. Abrahamics seem the only ones concerned about it. I see it on t.v. "guess what! We found a peice of Noah's Arch" or "god exists" in this X science magazine "because the molocules of water line up perfectly"...prophecies have come true. Just look at our world today.

America is funny about its "we have proof" stories. I notice online Muslims do it too. Jews dont online. Mayhe academically in person in a formal debate but none defining god.

Bahai inconsistances are strictly between their faith's intrepretation of other faiths facts. Its a huge inconsistancy. It did not bother me that some believe in The Eucharist ans others do not. To me and to many humdum low key Catholics 'here', it really doesnt matter.

God religions by their nature has inconsistances. The abrahamic religions say that god is a mystery. We are limited. No man can get it right.

My other question not answered. Bahai is such a new faith even to the point of one of the head people still lived in our century. 1921 or something he was born. Cant figure the name now. These guys were men. When did the divinity stop in the 18 to 19 hundreds to now?

 

[Vinayaka]

Big Question and I would say Yes.

For Hindus that force is God, so it's not dependent on God, much less men who claimed to be God.

 

[Vinayaka]

Hinduism appears to be about traditions and customs and a way of life in India that has evolved over thousands of years. So I wonder if Hinduism for many people in India is about being Indian and born into Indian customs and traditions.

Adi Shankara - Wikipedia
Chinmayananda Saraswati - Wikipedia
Tirumular - Wikipedia
Patanjali - Wikipedia
Swami Vivekananda - Wikipedia
Ramana Maharshi - Wikipedia
Ramakrishna - Wikipedia
Chaitanya Mahaprabhu - Wikipedia

Should we really put any of these men in the same category as Krishna or Siva?

Indeed, most Hindus of India are quite happy to just live the life of the society. It's converts who do most of the thinking and debate. The same is probably true of the Catholics of South America, or Europe.

As for the list, I would put one of the Baha'i 'manifestations' on it as well ... Buddha. The rest seem to be in a completer different category altogether. Not so much about being God, but far more about making egocentric claims about it. Different paradigms.

My list was just a start. It was examples only, like naming a couple of villages in New Zealand, as examples.. There would be 10 000 more. Mahavira would be like Buddha, and there is no reason whatsoever he shouldn't be on your list as a founder of a major religion.

 

[Vinayaka]

I wonder how much of the Krishna story Baha'is even believe? They believe in Jesus but say a lot of what is said about him isn't historical fact but symbolic. So what do they even believe is literal fact about what is written about Krishna? Was he real or mythical?

In my view, it was a trick to imply, 'Oh, we're just like you,' to get a foot in the door for follow-up conversion. The Christians in India have been using similar tactics for years. In the beginning stress the similarities, to gain confidence. Send the big guns in later. Few Hindus would fall for it, and those who do, we can do without.

 

[Vinayaka]

I thought Zoroastrians were dualistic. That they have a good and an evil god? But I'm sure Baha'is have a way to make them believe in the one true God.

Extremely dualistic, good versus evil. Only two forces in the world. About as far away from Hindu thought as one can get. Overly simplistic.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What I like to encourage is the common base say between the Vedic and the Avestan. .. There's also the possible influence according to John Clifford Holt mention of the Maitreya legend influenced by the Saosyant soteriological beliefs so there's much more than meets the eye at first glance.

Nobody denies the language connection between Avestan and Sanskrit and many of the myths also, but Zoroaster severed he connection and went his own way. Maitrya is Buddhist idea and has nothing to do with Hinduism.

I wonder how much of the Krishna story Baha'is even believe? They believe in Jesus but say a lot of what is said about him isn't historical fact but symbolic. So what do they even believe is literal fact about what is written about Krishna? Was he real or mythical?

I wont bother about what Bahais say. Krishna is a folk myth, perhaps with two roots, one in Gujarat and the other in Mathura. A king in Gujarat and a cow-herder in Mathura. I believe Gita was written by a wise man with non-dualist views (Advaita) and the Vaishnavas added a lot of verses into it making Krishna into Super God. So, it satisfies both theists and atheists.

Perhaps the greatest miracle of all is that it went completely unnoticed and wasn't mentioned in any history books of the time.

Haha. There is no end to what silly people can believe.