How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

Baha'u'llah was tortured, imprisoned, and exiled for forty years.
Now around 7 million people through most lands consider themselves Baha'is.

It seems to me that killing and persecution of anyone who believed differently than the majority in any one place was commonplace. Many founders of all kinds of sects were persecuted. Because this Christian sect is common where I live, it's just another example. I've looked into their beliefs a bit, l because they bought the land where I grew up.

Jacob Hutter - Wikipedia

Here's much much more: Religious persecution - Wikipedia

I don't think Baha'u'llah or the adherents of Baha'i' are at all unique in this regard. The entire idea of religious persecution seems so egocentric, inhumane, and instinctive to me.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How do feel about the Dalai Lama talking a Christian scripture and reinterpreting it in ways that some Christians would disagree with to find common ground?

You can discuss the differences with me. I won't develop an allergy. Promise!

LOL Thank you.

The version of scripture he chose I'm not familiar with but it has the same meaning. I only have a few I understand the best.

How do I say this, I honestly don't agree with finding commonalities among religious faiths. It isn't like finding what's in common in two friends personalities and interests. Religion is very individual at the core and when someone is likened to someone else outside of that religion at it's core insults the very religions that maintain its strength by their community or self-sustained.

I do agree that both Jesus and The Buddha says to put it simply humans "walk in darkness." What I disagree with is the nature of the darkness they walk in. The Dalai Lama, to me, simplifies darkness to make the two connect. By Buddhist sect, they don't connect at all.

For example,

Then Jesus cried out, "Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me.​

To buddhanise it, it would be:

Then The Buddha taught "Whosoever believes The Dhamma does not believe in me [as savior] but only of the teacher who taught the Dhamma. The one who is my student will knows The Dhamma. The one who is a student to himself, IS The Dhamma. ​

Very different context. In Christianity, salvation does not exist without Christ. In Buddhism, The Dhamma was there before The Buddha was born. In Christianity, Christians are give a new life. In Buddhism, The Buddha had lived many lives, but he wasn't given something new but realized something old.

But if anyone hears my words and disregards them, I am not his judge; I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for anyone who rejects me and does not accept my words; the word I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.​

But if anyone hears my words and disregards them, I am not the judge. I have come...to save the world. There is only one law of life which is kamma that one does not realize (rather than reject) but ignorant of. If you don't accept my words, your actions and illusions will make you fall into less healthy conditions than if you'd understand The Dhamma from a Buddha or Bodhisattva, than the Dhamma you receive is correct.

The isn't a judge so the authoritative nature behind followers motivations between the two religions are different. They build different karma. The Buddha saves lives by sacrificing attachments of the mind. Christ saves lives by telling Christians to sacrifice themselves-their flesh.

or I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."​

The Buddha isn't given words to say but he express words through dialogue rather than commands. He leads people to practice the teachings for themselves.

So, I think the Dalai Lama is building a surface level of similar virtues () that both Bahai and Buddhist believe all humans share. Buddhist do acknowledge the differences of religions but unlike Bahai, the similarities don't include god.

Jesus said that a prophet was without honour in His hometown.

One of the distinguishing features of the Manifestations of God is their enduring legacy in spite of opposition.

Nichiren Shonin,a Buddhist Monk, was imprisoned, tortured, and just got out of being beheaded when he found his "enlightenment" as a votary of The Lotus Sutra. He was imprisoned for spreading the The Buddha's teachings.

Interesting on that note, I was listening to a Dhamma talk earlier and the nun says that in Tibet, I think, and other countries in X year (have to go back and find it) could not pray any of The Buddha's prayers. They couldn't have buddhist books. If they spoke of The Buddha, the authorities imprisoned them.

This made me think of the validity of Nichiren Shonin's teachings. He was born in 1222. There was a Japanese war at that time and different Buddhist practitioners also had civil wars among themselves.

I'm sure a lot of people died in their faiths. I would think there'd be more than five manifestations if the whole world's religions where taken into consideration not the top five.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think Tibetan Buddhism might but I'm not sure.

Tibetan Buddhism: what is reincarnation?

The reason the Dalai Lama has visited my city on several occasions is we have a Buddhism community with a centre based on Tibetan Buddhism.

Maybe I should ask a Buddhist.

Any thoughts @Carlita ?

Zen Buddhism in Japan doesn't.

Quick note. The @Carlita doesn't work for me for some reason. I don't catch it unless surfing posts. I guess you can do an empty quote and see if it pages me.

I think you'd like these talks. This is a Tibetan view on rebirth. I don't follow the Tibetan tradition. I was initiated in the Zen tradition. Though, a lot of her talks seems like universal Buddhist teachings in regards to suffering and attachments.

Rebirth/Reincarnation

I know reincarnation/rebirth in Buddhism isn't the same as Hinduism because the goal isn't to achieve Moksha but to have understanding of life and death and actually die. I like the term rebirth and samsara better than reincarnation though.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Would that be the same for Bahaullah writings?

Yes. It’s the practice which is the most important.

 

[Dawnofhope]

LOL Thank you.

The version of scripture he chose I'm not familiar with but it has the same meaning. I only have a few I understand the best.

How do I say this, I honestly don't agree with finding commonalities among religious faiths. It isn't like finding what's in common in two friends personalities and interests. Religion is very individual at the core and when someone is likened to someone else outside of that religion at it's core insults the very religions that maintain its strength by their community or self-sustained.

I hear you.

I'm sure a lot of people died in their faiths. I would think there'd be more than five manifestations if the whole world's religions where taken into consideration not the top five.

I would be surprised too as there are many that we don't know about as well as a few more that we do. Then beyond that all the outstanding and inspired souls that have had an enormous influence throughout history.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Faith is a feeling. Faith is a hunch, really. It's a hunch that there is something bigger connecting it all... connecting us all together. And that feeling, that hunch, is God. And coming here tonight, on your Sunday evening... to connect with that feeling, that is an act of faith. And so all I have to do is look around the room at this packed church... to know that we're doing pretty well as a community." Keeping the Faith
It's a good movie and cute comedy romance.

I really enjoyed that movie with Ben Stiller and Edward Norton, The Catholic and the Rabbi and an old flame for both to stir up feelings of a different type.

I actually don't believe in Buddhism because there is no god. That's just a plus after hearing Dhamma talks and Buddhist telling me they don't rather than online commentaries and wisdom from online atheists. I just have more of a connection with life that Christianity doesn't give me. Whether christ is god really doesn't matter, though. I still believe the spirit of christ exists (I do believe in spirits) but now I know that everything is a product of the mind and the mind interprets and relates things it wants to externalize that's actual internal, I see it different now.

So, I can't click with belief in god. I love being in a community with Catholics. We just have to be on the same page for my to be Christian.

I can see that Buddhism would naturally resonate more with you than Catholicism.

I find it hard to imagine life without God, as its been such an integral part of my life for so long. It is an experience, heart and reality of life phenomenon, rather than something I've intellectualised. It is a precious gift and the few months I consciously choose atheism didn't go well.

I think what works for one person, doesn't for another. We are all different and no one can live our lives for us.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The problem in this thread is that the first definition has the word unity to bahai which by definition unity is the opposite. While we can work together for world peace, if christians want people to come to christ, bahai (as mentioned a,ready by bahai) want people to recognize manifestations, and say islam want people to come directly to god, this in some people head causes confusion not peace.

Another aspect of this thread for me has been about understanding the phenomenology of religion, not just the manifestations. How do we make sense of humanities religious experience?

It has also provided an opportunity to explore different perspective on history, religion, and culture. It has put the Baha'i Faith under the microscope too which has been both challenging and entertaining simultaneously. I've had to prayerfully consider some answers and recognise what I can't answer too. Questions have arisen such as:

Did these Manifestations really exist at all or was it mostly mythology?

What about paganism? How does that fit?

How do we reconcile contradictory belief systems?

Are the Baha'is not culturally misappropriating?

What about reconciling what the Baha'i faith says about religions and what faith adherents say about their own religion?

How do we know any of it has Divine origins and is not all simply man made?

This and many more.

Is it confusion? What confuses one person is clear as the noon day sun to another. That does not make it true of course. We are talking about faith after all and not discussing scientific proofs and facts.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I hear you.

Haha

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I find it hard to imagine life without God, as its been such an integral part of my life for so long. It is an experience, heart and reality of life phenomenon, rather than something I've intellectualised. It is a precious gift and the few months I consciously choose atheism didn't go well.

Yeah. I don't think many god-believers can think of life without gods. I only had the god-experience four years and a year departing myself from it. It the very core, I never questioned if anything created the earth and universe. Also, god centering around people sounds more ego (sorry) because Space is so vast that to say god focuses only on humans is really humans making god reflect the answers of their questions of their origin and destination.

RF made me intellectualize it It made sense once I saw people's connection and experience at Mass and general conversation. Then outside of religion, people still have that mindset of "there is something greater" or we need a good president; we need our parents; I need to listen to my boss; I can't take these shoes out of the store without being arrested.

When in reality, these views and beliefs are attachments. They don't exist. The president and your parents are people. You can walk out of your job. No one will zap you with a lazer gun. You can take shoes out of the store without someone chaining you just before you hit the door. The illusion is thinking we are imprisoned when in Buddhism, we get out of that illusion hopefully this life time and see we are free. That life and death doesn't have a hold on us because we understand the natural cycle of life and by that understanding, we die.

I was listening to Dhamma talk again yesterday (I try to every morning now) about what consciousness is. Buddhist believe the body actually does die but our consciousness is still "alive" and reincarnates until liberation. No one has yet to explain what consciousness (edit) after death. I assume it's similar to Hinduism so far I heard and read. Maybe @Vinayaka can give me an idea??

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Another aspect of this thread for me has been about understanding the phenomenology of religion, not just the manifestations. How do we make sense of humanities religious experience?

It has also provided an opportunity to explore different perspective on history, religion, and culture. It has put the Baha'i Faith under the microscope too which has been both challenging and entertaining simultaneously. I've had to prayerfully consider some answers and recognise what I can't answer too. Questions have arisen such as:

Did these Manifestations really exist at all or was it mostly mythology?

What about paganism? How does that fit?

How do we reconcile contradictory belief systems?

Are the Baha'is not culturally misappropriating?

What about reconciling what the Baha'i faith says about religions and what faith adherents say about their own religion?

How do we know any of it has Divine origins and is not all simply man made?

This and many more.

Is it confusion? What confuses one person is clear as the noon day sun to another. That does not make it true of course. We are talking about faith after all and not discussing scientific proofs and facts.

Eh. Everything is flooded with Bahai views one way or another it's hard to know anything else outside of it. I asked Vinayaka questions too but it's all based on experience. To me, unless it's private, I'll figure a way to explain my experiences because that helps me understand them more. That, and I like talking about what I believe. I mean, the only non abrahamics that talked to me where Nichiren Shoshu Buddhist. Their approach is highly political and more confrontational than christianity. So, I learned and left fast. SGI will talk about their faith. But religions based on culture usually are pretty private. I'm an artist. How can someone trap me from being me?

 

[Vinayaka]

I was listening to Dhamma talk again yesterday (I try to every morning now) about what consciousness is. Buddhist believe the body actually does die but our consciousness is still "alive" and reincarnates until liberation. No one has yet to explain what consciousness (edit) after death. I assume it's similar to Hinduism so far I heard and read. Maybe @Vinayaka can give me an idea??

Yes, Hindus believe this too. Physical death is like walking through a door. The ego/identity of this lifetime then wanes, while we (I mean the soul) look around for a new body. When the new body is found, the soul inhabits it, and slowly the new ego/identity develops.

People who have been pronounced medically dead by doctors have come back and talked about it. I wouldn't consider it a near death experience, but a death experience, at least by the current definition of death. (No more brain activity)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, Hindus believe this too. Physical death is like waling through a door. The ego/identity of this lifetime then wanes, while we (I mean the soul) look around for a new body. When the new body is found, the soul inhabits it, and slowly the new ego/identity develops.

People who have been pronounced medically dead by doctors have come back and talked about it. I wouldn't consider it a near death experience, but a death experience, at least by the current definition of death. (No more brain activity)

The closest I understand it is that when we physically die, our soul lives in the family members or people who remember us most. So, if no one remembers us, I'd assume our soul would not exist. The nun explains it consciousness as awareness. When our brains are functioning we are aware hence why many of us meditate. When we no longer have a brain, since it's part of the body, what is the awareness that lingers until reincarnated into another body?

 

[Vinayaka]

The closest I understand it is that when we physically die, our soul lives in the family members or people who remember us most. So, if no one remembers us, I'd assume our soul would not exist. The nun explains it consciousness as awareness. When our brains are functioning we are aware hence why many of us meditate. When we no longer have a brain, since it's part of the body, what is the awareness that lingers until reincarnated into another body?

Not the way I see it, but sure. Hindus believe the soul would exist independently. Even a person with nobody to remember him/her still is a soul. according to Hindu belief. On a more ultimate inner level.

The swami in the video I linked, (but since deleted since it seemed too much like proselytizing my belief) compared it to the myth of the sun coming up every day. We totally speak about, think of the sun rising to the east, yet if we look deeper we know it's the earth spinning that causes that illusion. So there is no death, just as the leaves of a tree falling off every year doesn't mean the tree is dead. Just taking a break. So the soul is taking a break.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not the way I see it, but sure. Hindus believe the soul would exist independently. Even a person with nobody to remember him/her still is a soul. according to Hindu belief. On a more ultimate inner level.

The swami in the video I linked, (but since deleted since it seemed too much like proselytizing my belief) compared it to the myth of the sun coming up every day. We totally speak about, think of the sun rising to the east, yet if we look deeper we know it's the earth spinning that causes that illusion. So there is no death, just as the leaves of a tree falling off every year doesn't mean the tree is dead. Just taking a break. So the soul is taking a break.

*cough* I don't know what to say about that. You can message me the link instead.

I remember seeing a spirit once and experienced a few a couple times growing up 'till twenties or so when I learned more of christianity. It was a family "common sense" belief but since christianized, I was never open to the experience sense. Don't know how to get it back.

Some use soul and spirit as interchangeable. So, if I relate to what you say, I'd say spirit. Spirit being the life and breathe of a person (how the soul lives). Soul being the character and definition of the person. The body being the shell. So, spirit makes the spirit alive. Soul is alive in the body. All three work together for us to reach wholeness and free spirited life.

I read the soul reincarnates, for lack of the right word, from elders to infants when people pass away in the Lukumi tradition. The closest to that is communicating with my grandparents and my mother with hers.

But I never described any of these as consciousness. I looked it up as awareness of the brain. Unless it's the word and not the concept, when the brain no longer exist, the awareness via the neurons and all that cannot bring awareness anymore.

I'd have to reflect on how consciousness can be a soul, and how souls can exist as awareness without the body until inhabiting a new body. Seeing a spirit is easier for me to comprehend because you have the full person. When it's abstract until the spirit becomes a soul, it's like making something abstract concrete and abstract at the same time.

I could never get over that hump hence why I never understood god. Always wanted to get over that without referring to common sacred scriptures.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Vinayaka

Hmmm. I haven't seen the whole thing yet; but, so far, that's like what the nun explained in Dhamma talk. She was talking about the definition of " I " and the illusion that there is an I but there isn't. I guess I won't post the video, unfortunately. Though, the riches and land is the "I/self" and what is the Self or nature of the person is the one with the Buddha/enlightened nature.

When one is enlightened, the Self realizes his nature is not the I but the Self constantly reborn. Once he understands that in full, he obtains liberation and no longer is reborn (given new property).

The Buddha does actually die after enlightenment. I don't know the nature of the death; but, I don't know if Dharmic religions actually ask that question.

Does that make sense?

 

[Vinayaka]

@Vinayaka

Hmmm. I haven't seen the whole thing yet; but, so far, that's like what the nun explained in Dhamma talk. She was talking about the definition of " I " and the illusion that there is an I but there isn't. I guess I won't post the video, unfortunately. Though, the riches and land is the "I/self" and what is the Self or nature of the person is the one with the Buddha/enlightened nature.

When one is enlightened, the Self realizes his nature is not the I but the Self constantly reborn. Once he understands that in full, he obtains liberation and no longer is reborn (given new property).

The Buddha does actually die after enlightenment. I don't know the nature of the death; but, I don't know if Dharmic religions actually ask that question.

Does that make sense?

Yes it makes sense, somewhat. The death of the ego/peronsality, so 'death' could well be the same as mokhsa, never having to come back. Not use though, as usual.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes it makes sense, somewhat. The death of the ego/peronsality, so 'death' could well be the same as mokhsa, never having to come back. Not use though, as usual.

Interesting. I like how the swami (?) uses some of The Buddha's words to explain it. I like how death is liberation of suffering. Hindu obtaining unity with god and Buddhism by liberation from suffering. Probably same pattern based on Indian cosmology. The videos I watched are Tibetan Buddhism so I don't know honestly. Not many teachers here.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It the very core, I never questioned if anything created the earth and universe. Also, god centering around people sounds more ego (sorry) because Space is so vast that to say god focuses only on humans is really humans making god reflect the answers of their questions of their origin and destination.

Baha'u'llah has given us more to consider. We are one of but many worlds of God, which number can not be computed, and but one being that can know and love God.

Baha'u'llah to me has given us the first glimpse of the Universal requirement of Unity, of knowledge.

Our next step is Unity of Mind as a Human Species. When we acheive this we will traverse time and space easily and swiftly and we will find other intelligence that knows and loves God. I am thinking We will have to bind our minds.

I like that science fiction picks up some of what the future will unfold. Avatar to me a great movie with lots of spiritual comparrisons.

The ego to me, is our own thoughts.

Yes, Hindus believe this too. Physical death is like walking through a door. The ego/identity of this lifetime then wanes

That is what a Baha'i also beleives.

Much has been revealled about the Soul and what happens in the Baha'i Writings. The difference is it does not come back to another life on this earth, but it can influence life on earth.

Death is our next birth and once birth has happened, it is not possible to be put back in the womb.

Regards to all Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes it makes sense, somewhat. The death of the ego/peronsality, so 'death' could well be the same as mokhsa, never having to come back. Not use though, as usual.

Interesting note. When I went to the Spiritualist Church, they refer to death as a transition to where death isn't a separation but a continuation of life. Thereby, we can commuicate and mediate with people because they have just transitioned not disappeared from existence.

I wonder if the idea of death is an abrahamic idea but not shared by many traditions not just Dharmic and eastern in nature.

 

[oldbadger]

I blooming missed the thousandth post again.

I'll get one!
I will!