Thou shall not kill!

[BSM1]

This is only one meaning for the word, and I am not sure it's the most common.
Had the Shariac judges of Saudi Arabia continued on with their plan to flog Raif Badawi to death I would have considered that a heinous murder. I don't care how primitive the laws in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia are, it is a killing I personally disapprove of strongly. Murder.
Tom

Killing, no matter what you think of it, is not necessarily murder. There are people that oppose the death sentence in the US calling it murder. Obviously it is not or you would have to arrest the judges, prosecutors, warden, etc. for the crime. You shouldn't try to determine the legality of an action just because it offends your sensibilities. That's why we enact laws. Murder (not generalized killing) is one of those defined laws.

 

[columbus]

By definition murder can only be what the state defines because murder is a legal term.

Here's another anecdote.
Mary was living with Joe. Mary thought Joe ideal in every way, except that he wouldn't marry. So, she lied about birth control, confident that he would marry her if she was pregnant. He didn't, although he was thrilled to be a daddy.

She kept trying to get him to marry her until it was so late in the pregnancy she had to fly to another state to get an abortion. Then she did, because the baby wasn't going to get her what she wanted.
Legal, barely. Still a murder in my opinion.
Tom

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

you don't understand the emotional difference

 

[columbus]

Killing, no matter what you think of it, is not necessarily murder.

I agree, killing is not necessarily murder. But I don't feel particularly constrained (morally) by the humans around me.
Tom

 

[BSM1]

Here's another anecdote.
Mary was living with Joe. Mary thought Joe ideal in every way, except that he wouldn't marry. So, she lied about birth control, confident that he would marry her if she was pregnant. He didn't, although he was thrilled to be a daddy.

She kept trying to get him to marry her until it was so late in the pregnancy she had to fly to another state to get an abortion. Then she did, because the baby wasn't going to get her what she wanted.
Legal, barely. Still a murder in my opinion.
Tom

In your scenario the abortion was legal entirely, not barely (whatever that means). In the question of what is legal and what is not your opinion is completely irrelevant. Again, this is why we have written laws defining what is legal ans what is not. Murder is illegal by definition, killing is not. In your scenario suppose Joe found out that Mary lied about the birth control. Enraged Joe grabs a knife and maliciously attacks Mary. Now supposed the next door neighbor, hearing Mary's screams, grabs his baseball bat and runs next door. Seeing Joe slicing at Mary (and fearing for his own life as well) he whacks Joe between the eyes with the bat. Joe dies instantly from the blow. Do we prosecute the neighbor for murder?

 

[Thief]

I agree, killing is not necessarily murder. But I don't feel particularly constrained (morally) by the humans around me.
Tom

?????.....no constraint?

are you a candidate for mayhem?

 

[columbus]

?????.....no constraint?

are you a candidate for mayhem?

Quite the contrary.
I am more judgemental and constrained than most people in my culture.
Tom

 

[Thief]

In your scenario the abortion was legal entirely, not barely (whatever that means). In the question of what is legal and what is not your opinion is completely irrelevant. Again, this is why we have written laws defining what is legal ans what is not. Murder is illegal by definition, killing is not. In your scenario suppose Joe found out that Mary lied about the birth control. Enraged Joe grabs a knife and maliciously attacks Mary. Now supposed the next door neighbor, hearing Mary's screams, grabs his baseball bat and runs next door. Seeing Joe slicing at Mary (and fearing for his own life as well) he whacks Joe between the eyes with the bat. Joe dies instantly from the blow. Do we prosecute the neighbor for murder?

stopping voilence in progress is courage
in the eyes of most people
(circumstances leading to the event would not be known by the neighbor)

 

[Thief]

Quite the contrary.
I am more judgemental and constrained than most people in my culture.
Tom

ah yes.....peace first

and as a black belt ....
I have personal constraints greater than most

 

[columbus]

In the question of what is legal and what is not your opinion is completely irrelevant.

I can't help but notice, you didn't address Raif Badawi.
Do you think it is moral for the Wahabbists of Saudi Arabia to kill him in a violent and bloody way for advocating representative government?
If not, what would you call that death? I call it murder, but it's totally legal and approved of by the culture.
Are you OK with that?
Tom

 

[james dixon]

Genus Homo has been killing animals for food for at least two million years. That's two million years before Yahweh.

Your date is a bit off.

According to genetic and fossil evidence, archaic Homo sapiens evolved to anatomically modern humans solely in Africa, between 200,000 and 100,000 years ago, with members of one branch leaving Africa by 60,000 years ago and over time replacing earlier human populations such as Neanderthals and Homo erectus. More recently, in 2017, fossils found in Jebel Irhoud (Morocco) suggest that Homo sapiens may have evolved as early as 315,000 years ago,[8] and other evidence suggests that Homo sapiens may have migrated from Africa as early as 270,000 years ago.[9][10]\

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens

 

[BSM1]

I can't help but notice, you didn't address Raif Badawi.
Do you think it is moral for the Wahabbists of Saudi Arabia to kill him in a violent and bloody way for advocating representative government?
If not, what would you call that death? I call it murder, but it's totally legal and approved of by the culture.
Are you OK with that?
Tom

We are not talking about morality here, we are discussing legalities. Morals tend to be abstract where legalities are pretty much concrete. I would no more want to take another person's life then anyone else. I also would not want to have to go to the dentist for a root canal. Unfortunately we live in a world where realities trump fantasies.

 

[columbus]

We are not talking about morality here, we are discussing legalities.

Are you ok with the Saudis flogging Badawi to death?
If not, what would you call it?

If Gorsuch led Supreme Court decides that Constitutional law requires unborn humans to be protected to the full extent of the law, would you then agree that all abortions are murder?
Personally, my morality isn't as flexible as that. But then, I am not you.
Tom

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

If not, what would you call that death? I call it murder, but it's totally legal and approved of by the culture.

It means he's a dick, but unless you're the guy's lawyer and suggest there wasn't a legal reason the dude shouldn't be executed under their laws, it's still an execution.

If Gorsuch led Supreme Court decides that Constitutional law requires unborn humans to be protected to the full extent of the law, would you then agree that all abortions are murder?

If I were a lawyer, I would then ask zygotes and fetuses to have voting rights and other such things. Prolifers don't actually care about what they consider sentient beings (being "human" means nothing, because even human corpses have human DNA). It is like the personhood status for nonhumans. There are some species I could see getting it, but let's be honest ... we're not going to register them to vote or ask their opinions any time soon.

 

[BSM1]

Are you ok with the Saudis flogging Badawi to death?
If not, what would you call it?

If Gorsuch led Supreme Court decides that Constitutional law requires unborn humans to be protected to the full extent of the law, would you then agree that all abortions are murder?
Personally, my morality isn't as flexible as that. But then, I am not you.
Tom

Never said that, C. I am in favor of a sniper taking out the flogger with a high-powered rifle at 2000 yards if the case warranted such action. You're trying to put words in my mouth over a subject that is not even germane to the discussion. You are trying to evoke emotion rather than rather to defend your point, IMHO.

BTW, I am staunchly Pro-Choice for very specific reasons.

 

[columbus]

It means he's a dick, but unless you're the guy's lawyer and suggest there wasn't a legal reason the dude shouldn't be executed under their laws, it's still an execution.

Who is a dick? Badawi?
I think most executions are murder.
I am a hardcore Pro-Lifer. People choosing death for other people is wrong.
Murder, by my meaning of the word.
Tom

 

[columbus]

Never said that, C.

l know. You completely dodged the questions I asked.

I am in favor of a sniper taking out the flogger with a high-powered rifle at 2000 yards if the case warranted such action.

Why would you be ok with executing someone for a perfectly legal killing? Maybe your definition of murder is closer to mine than you will admit?

You're trying to put words in my mouth over a subject that is not even germane to the discussion. You are trying to evoke emotion rather than rather to defend your point, IMHO.

I am asking you questions that I believe illustrate the irrationality of your definition of murder.
Tom

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In your scenario the abortion was legal entirely, not barely (whatever that means). In the question of what is legal and what is not your opinion is completely irrelevant. Again, this is why we have written laws defining what is legal ans what is not. Murder is illegal by definition, killing is not. In your scenario suppose Joe found out that Mary lied about the birth control. Enraged Joe grabs a knife and maliciously attacks Mary. Now supposed the next door neighbor, hearing Mary's screams, grabs his baseball bat and runs next door. Seeing Joe slicing at Mary (and fearing for his own life as well) he whacks Joe between the eyes with the bat. Joe dies instantly from the blow. Do we prosecute the neighbor for murder?

I find under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law that such a neighbor could be considered as possibly guilty of 'manslaughter' but Not murder. That is why several ' cities of refuge ' were set up in ancient Israel as mentioned at Numbers 35:6. The degree of deliberately or intentionally killing/murdering should be taken in consideration - Numbers 35:19-24. Also, self-defence for oneself or another is Not murder or premeditated murder.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I think most executions are murder.
I am a hardcore Pro-Lifer. People choosing death for other people is wrong.
Murder, by my meaning of the word.
Tom

Executions are justice for the righteous. A murderer can be executed for the sake of justice.
That is why ' cities of refuge ' were set up in ancient Israel.
The 'executional words' from Jesus' mouth as per Revelation 19:14-16; Isaiah 11:3-4 is Not murder but justice.

 

[columbus]

Executions are justice for the righteous.

Killing someone who is not a threat to anybody qualifies as murder to me.
I guess I am just more ProLife than you and most Christians are.
Tom