Wow. I am very happy for you.
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Theists: How do you determine that God is not a malevolent being?
- Thread starter sayak83
- Start date
Makes sense, though i disagree with the notion of it being possibly malevolent, as all material possessions produce temporary happiness and can cause egoistic thoughts like greed. God does not force people to rid their possessions either, he always speaks in a recommendatory way
Also, worshipping God only for the reward is distasteful, all Vaisnavas worship the Lord through love, bhakti, not the promise of a better life Whether it is an illusion or not, the love devotees have for him is real The current cast system is a terrible shadow of it's true self. This one point in time will end, as all others will. It's a cycle; in the material world all good things don't last, as well as bad things
By the way, the Kali Yuga, where the caste system declines, is 432,000 years, not even a quarter of the Satya Yuga, which is 1.728 million years long. That should rule out any malevolence, especially when considering Lord Kalki will appear and end it
Check my last post.
Theists: How do you determine that God is not a malevolent being?
I got the idea of this thread by looking at arguments of theists about the problem of evil. Usually the free will defense is employed. It's weakness is that it can turned upside down. Consider this:-
A maximally malevolent being would like to create conditions where:-
People who start out with genuinely good intentions gets deluded by carefully inserted false beliefs and commit evil by their own free will (think of all bloody revolutions committed by sincere folks who thought they were creating a future utopia).
People gain goods that they value a lot before snatching these goods away from them thus maximizing suffering. (Gandhi who believed in non-violence saw the second world War and Hindus and Muslims butchering each other before getting assassinated by a country man for whose freedom he dedicated his life)
Thus a maximally malevolent being would have motive for creating conditions where some good and some hope exists so that suffering increases as these goods and hopes gets repeatedly frustrated.
US government is also lasting, and it's quite a stretch to say that the British monarchy has lasted considering what it was in 1800 S and what it is now. So this prophecy looks totally dubious.
Any Tom, Dick and Harry can proclaim remedies of peace (remove guns and missiles and nukes, consider all nations like your own etc.) That, by itself, signifies nothing at all.
I don't believe a word of the argument I'm about to use. This is how a Christian fundamentalist may think. Christian fundamentalists believe in a malevolent being Satan...I'm sure you know all this.
The malevalent being Satan is deep within you, deceiving you of you own true nature that is really fallen and wicked.
All part of Satan's elaborate delusion.
Satan's deceptive religion for the faithless Hindus.
Your assumptions have been proved false and wanting, but this has been revealed to you as I am a believer in the True God Jesus who has spoken to me and graciously aided me to assist you so you may know the truth.
ie Satan's web of deception is complete!
So what is your counter argument to this errant nonsense?
The malevalent being Satan is deep within you, deceiving you of you own true nature that is really fallen and wicked.
All part of Satan's elaborate delusion.
Satan's deceptive religion for the faithless Hindus.
Your assumptions have been proved false and wanting, but this has been revealed to you as I am a believer in the True God Jesus who has spoken to me and graciously aided me to assist you so you may know the truth.
ie Satan's web of deception is complete!
So what is your counter argument to this errant nonsense?
Your first point has merit. If one's quality of life is better with faith and moderation than without, then the skeptical claim is defeated.Makes sense, though i disagree with the notion of it being possibly malevolent, as all material possessions produce temporary happiness and can cause egoistic thoughts like greed. God does not force people to rid their possessions either, he always speaks in a recommendatory way
The current cast system is a terrible shadow of it's true self. This one point in time will end, as all others will. It's a cycle; in the material world all good things don't last, as well as bad things
Your second point requires a metaphysical belief in the yuga cycle. Skeptics would argue that actual history of the world does not support it, and this would be an example of a false belief about the past bolstered by faith... another example of a form of suffering.
If I am inherently evil and fallen, then I would enjoy being with Satan's true malevolent self and repulsed by goodness. There would be no need for Satan to deceive me at all. A deception requires that you falsely take on the character of the person you wish to deceive (wolf taking on sheep's clothing). If I am inherently wicked, Satan simply has to reveal his true nature to me and I would immediately accept his true evil Self as lord and Master as it would connect with my deepest nature.
I understandYour first point has merit. If one's quality of life is better with faith and moderation than without, then the skeptical claim is defeated.
Your second point requires a metaphysical belief in the yuga cycle. Skeptics would argue that actual history of the world does not support it, and this would be an example of a false belief about the past bolstered by faith... another example of a form of suffering.
It's a serious question. I am reading a book on philosophy of religion so the question cropped up. Clearly a sufficiently powerful malevolent being can deceive any theist into thinking he is a good God. So how do you verify that your good is not a powerful malevolent being? In fact how do you no that God himself is not a malevolent being? Evidence and arguments welcome.
Note:- This is a thread for those interested in discussing theological, metaphysical and philosophical arguments and evidence that justifies or negates various worldviews. If one is not interested in such things, that's perfectly fine and the thread is not for you.
I believe God gave us the capacity to make our own decisions. He's not in the background manipulating us like pawns. When people choose to do good things that's their choice and their merit, when they choose to do evil things it's also their choose and their responsibility. We can't do horrible things and say we did it because God is evil. That's the way of the cowards.
That sounds reasonable. I wasn't smart enough at the time to devise such a rational arguement when told I by a Christian minister of religion I was possessed. I intuitively believed it probably wasn't true and I stopped believing it. I become a Baha'i a few years later.
Having lived with a couple of philosophy graduates have realised the limits of logic and reason. I wonder if the best we can do is to read the reality of our own lives and each day take steps towards that which is good and true.
I see that in all faith adherents.
The limits we perceive of logic and reason may be no different from the limits we see in our capacity to love.. created by our as yet undeveloped character than anything inherently limiting in either reasoning or in loving. I expect both limits to continuously expand as successive generations evolve and develop both intellectually and spiritually over time.
Araceli Cianna
Active Member
You can't. When you take this question seriously there's no way to really know. Which is why I think putting 'God' into a box of perfectly good or perfectly evil (or two separately opposed divine beings!) doesn't work out. I prefer to think that any God has both, which makes you wonder why to worship such a God in the first place? So honestly, the idea of any supreme being (good, evil, mixed) is illogical.
The United States is Mentioned in the Writings in a positive way, I can not post all that was said
this is a forum post.This is one quote by Abdul'baha.
"The American nation is equipped and empowered to accomplish that which will adorn the pages of history, to become the envy of the world, and be blest in both the East and the West for the triumph of its people . . . The American continent gives signs and evidences of very great advancement. Its future is even more promising, for its influence and illumination are far-reaching. It will lead all nations spiritually."
From this link - Shoghi Effendi and the American Dream
"Amazingly, the Baha’i teachings had long foreseen these striking, world-embracing developments. When the UNCIO delegates met in 1945, few realized that Abdu’l-Baha had prophetically declared in San Francisco, a third of a century before, “May the first flag of international peace be upraised in this state.” And when the cornerstone of the United Nations’ permanent seat was laid in New York City in 1949, the Baha’is recalled Abdu’l-Baha’s visionary statement thirty-seven years earlier, declaring New York as the “City of the Covenant” and saying, in an address at the Astor Hotel to the New York Peace Society:
There is no doubt that … the banner of international agreement will be unfurled here to spread onward and outward among all the nations of the world. – The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 125."
The Baha’is, the United Nations and Universal Peace
Regards Tony
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
It's a serious question. I am reading a book on philosophy of religion so the question cropped up. Clearly a sufficiently powerful malevolent being can deceive any theist into thinking he is a good God. So how do you verify that your good is not a powerful malevolent being? In fact how do you no that God himself is not a malevolent being? Evidence and arguments welcome.
Note:- This is a thread for those interested in discussing theological, metaphysical and philosophical arguments and evidence that justifies or negates various worldviews. If one is not interested in such things, that's perfectly fine and the thread is not for you.
Why do you think that God is a malevolent being?
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
To me, it's quite simple.
What the gods do does both good and bad; the bad usually comes from our own hubris, though sometimes the "wrath" of the gods is unavoidable. But are they malicious? No. Have you ever heard the thunderstorm condemn anyone? Do the crops grow for one peoples, and not another? The gods do what is necessary for all - including the earth - without bias or discrimination.
What the gods do does both good and bad; the bad usually comes from our own hubris, though sometimes the "wrath" of the gods is unavoidable. But are they malicious? No. Have you ever heard the thunderstorm condemn anyone? Do the crops grow for one peoples, and not another? The gods do what is necessary for all - including the earth - without bias or discrimination.
The one thing I could never reconcile with the Christian idea of the Devil was this. If the Devil exists to entice sinful nature in people, why would he be an active participant in their punishment if they comply? He even seems to relish it in many depictions. I know the idea is that he's malevolent, but if he were a character his motivations would be confused to say the least.
Beings can either be good or evil or morally mixed. Following a morally evil beings makes a person complicit in that evil. Hence a good person needs to ensure that he is not following a morally evil being.
Does a world necessarily require hurricanes to exist and be hospitable to life? If not what is the moral justification for hurricanes?
But he won't punish. If one reads the revelation, it is God who torments the sinners and the devil with fire and hell and pestilence etc. There is nothing in it that says that devil punishes or torments anybody.