How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

We're soeaking about infuiencing billions of people's daily lives thousands of years after They died. Only These Beings can claim to have achieved this if you look at past and present history.

Yes this is your belief. Beliefs are influenced by hundreds of people throughout history, not just 9 people. Marx, Tolstoy, Gandhi, Einstein, Plato, Aristotle, and several hundred more.

 

[Vinayaka]

Energy does not have 'Wisdom'.
Science does not define Energy, as a Person with Wisdom. It seems to me, this idea that god is energy is a product of imaginations. Is there anywhere in Hindu sources where a God, such as Shiva, says, he is Energy?

You're not a Hindu. Please don't suggest that you can understand how a Hindu perceives the world. It's insulting.

Here's one article. I hope you read it, but you probably won't.

Shakti - Wikipedia

In Saiva Hinduism, Shakti is God's energy. It's the dual unmanifest/manifest concept. A Hindu temple, and the presence of God as energy there is what bhakti is all about. Hindus can feel it. Non-Hindus often can't. What can I say? You are willing to deny another person's experience., which steps on very egocentric grounds.

 

[Vinayaka]

I do not believe anyone has really experienced God who does not accept His Manifestation.

And I believe the very idea of manifestations is total hogwash, but that's why we're here, having this debate. If it weren't for differing beliefs, there would be no debate, lol.

On one hand, you're saying a person can experience God, but on the other hand you're saying God is unknowable. Which is it? (Prediction, there will be avoidance of this topic, or an attempt to change the topic, part of 'the strategy', lol)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, i see what you say, and this is what I say:

In my view God is unknowable, and any god that any human imagines to exist, that god does not exist in reality, because that god would be the product of imagination.
But a number of persons had appeared in the history, who proclaimed that They were Messengers, or Manifestations of God, who had come with evidence as a proof that They are indeed Manifestations of the divinity.
Now, These beings, are no longer imaginations, because in reality They did appear in this World.
Some people choose to ignore Them, conviniently.
Bahais say, they believe in all of Them, as They came with clear evidences in their view.
To me, you choose to ignore Their divinity evidences. You have the right to do so do. But if we are discussing if They who had appeared are or are not Manifestation of divinity, we must have done a reasonable investigation, and be able to clearly point out why, the signs of divinity exist or does not exist in Them.
I have not seen this from you yet.

Let me ask.

If god is unknowable, how do you know he exists?

Prophets are human too. Going by what you said, if they described god, it would only be limited by their "imagination" just like you and a believer beside you.

Why do you (any person prophet and otherwise) need to describe virtues and attributes of god?

I know the Jews do not attempt to describe god. That makes more sense than him being a human, incarnation, or manifestation. If god is a mystery, by definition, we do not know god.

The only way I know if your god exists is if you explain him through your experiences and your own words. It's like my having Epilepsy and thinking of getting another surgery (which is on my mind now). I wouldn't go to a book of testimonies of people who had it. I wouldn't go to someone who did not have surgery but refer to a book of people who did.

I would go to a living human being who has gone through the surgery and tells me in his own words how the surgery helps him. Of course, I know such procedures exist but because of the personal nature of the conversation and relationship we can find similarities because we are both human and have things in common.

We cannot, by definition, do that with the "unknown." It is honestly like telling me attributes of an imaginary friend. Why would I not logically think it's in your head rather than outside yourself?

I mean, Hindu do not explain god outside themselves as defined by abrahamics. Everything is inward. I would consider it a mind thing from my perspective but it makes sense because they aren't look outside of themselves to look in.

If what you believe is a mystery, what exactly are you believing in that influences you so much to where your values and heart depend on what is unknowable than what is known?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In Saiva Hinduism, Shakti is God's energy.

.

Now that makes more sense. As you say here, God has energies. This is different than saying God IS Energy, which is what you said before.

 

[Vinayaka]

Now that makes more sense. As you say here, God has energies. This is different than saying God IS Energy, which is what you said before.

Siva/Shakti is God. You cannot have one without the other. Ardhinarisvara depicts Siva as half female. Siva is never separate from Shakti. Again, I implore you to do some basic reading before making false statements about my faith.

Yes, God is energy. In Hinduism, God is a lot of things. God isn't restricted to this or that. It's a whole bunch of concepts all tied together. In my sampradaya God is seen in three separate perfections. We don't put limits on what God is or isn't. In fact Siva is everything.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Let me ask.

If god is unknowable, how do you know he exists?

We can know God through His Manifestations.

Prophets are human too.

In Bahai View, Prophets who are Manifestation of God, has a twofold station. On one hand He has an individuality, and a natural body. Their natural body is like any other human. So, when you say, Prophets are human too, this is correct in this sense. They have a second station, which is their Spiritual Station. Their Spiritual Station differs from human beings, in a sense that Their Soul reflects signs of divinity. For instance, a sign of divinity is omniscience. Bahaullah showed this sign. He was all-knowing according to history.
Now, when I said previously you choose to ignore this, that is exactly what I mean. The invisible god is unknowable. But Bahaullah was not invisible. He came and lived among people. The Bahais would say, it is verifiable that Bahaullah was all-knowing if one chooses to investigate about Him.
Many simply choose not to even look into it, and when discussing it, try to find a way to scape. Everybody has the right to investigate, or choose not to. But, when discussing, it needs to be based on investigation and information.
For example if you choose not to investigate, it is totally your right. If choose to say, you do not believe in Bahaullah, you have the right. But if you want to make a meaningful discussion, showing why Bahaullah is not manifestation, or is a manifestation of God, you should provide reasonable information, based on historical information, or evidences such as writings of Bahaullah. For example, Bahaullah wrote about 17000 works. Bahaullah claims He is infallible. He has and had many enemies. They read all His works trying to find a mistake, yet to my knowledge they did not find any. A human being cannot write 17000 works, about topics he never studied before, while in prison and exile, and yet no one could find any mistake in them. So, here is an evidence.
So, if you say Bahaullah was not infallible, were are you evidences?

 

[DavidFirth]

413 pages and our atheists still haven't been able to explain the Great Being away?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I wanted to touch on this. This isn't a Hindu view; and, it's what I personally believe.

Energy does not have 'Wisdom'.

Science does not define Energy, as a Person with Wisdom.

It seems to me, this idea that god is energy is a product of imaginations.

Is there anywhere in Hindu sources where a God, such as Shiva, says, he is Energy?

Taking spirit-uality out, wisdom is a collection of experiences and knowledge we learn from throughout our lifetime. Those experiences are interpreted and translated by our thoughts and actions. Different types of energy help the body to function. Thoughts are the information that neurons collect for the brain to make sense out of. All of these things working together cannot run without heat and action. It cannot run without energy.

Energy is wisdom because it is the source behind how we live and how our interpretations and experiences come together through tangible physiological and psychological actions of the body. We collect wisdom and live wisdom when we take care of ourselves and pass on the collective information that the neurons brought throughout our lifetime, write memoirs, and live our life differently. Energy is the source of this and the action that makes all of this happen.

Energy is wisdom. Just it isn't put in those terms scientifically speaking.

-

Science defines energy as thought patterns you can see in an EEG. Doctors know that thought patterns in EEG come from living beings and animals. Whether you phrase it as "energy as a person" or doctors finding thoughts and say diagnosing seizures from sporadic energy that spaze the nerves and makes one seize are all a part of science.

I think you're hung up on terminology and phrases.

God/source/life is all types of energy from the sun to electrons in our batteries. There are no such things as "man-made" everything came from the earth. We cannot make up what we are not familiar with. We can distort say make an animal look like a dragon with two heads. We don't bring in what we don't already know. What we don't know that comes into our awareness was already there. Nothing is dependent on us to exist.

With that, energy-what sustains life-has always been here. God is said to be eternal; energy is eternal. We feel the rush of love but that's just blood flowing through our body and neurons spazzing through our brains but can't run without the source-energy (some call it the holy spirit). Energy creates the movement of a child being born. Energy gives you energy, no pun, that comes from the sun. You are depleted of energy when you are deheighdrated. You need energy/god to survive.

In spirituality, many spiritual paths tap into this energy they call god. Some find healing through the different energy zones that run through different areas of our bodies. God. Consciousness/mind/thoughts/neuronic patterns can be controlled and/or be noticed by focusing our minds and bodies on the energy within us. I am assuming that is what Chakras do and many techniques in many faiths.

Prayer is a form of connecting with yourself or to god. You aren't connecting to someone outside yourself-using your words, that's just your imagination-it comes from you externalized so you can relate to it. Some people can't relate to things they cannot see. Those who say "man-made" and belittle man belitle themselves and don't see the god/energy/life within themselves that the creator (the source) has given them. So they need something outside themselves to reflect who they are: human attributes.

Compassion. Love. Kindness. grattitude. are all human feelings not entity god feelings. God is religious word. Take away religion, you still have "god."

It makes sense. Once you externalize and personify it you can talk about interpretations for hours on end because that is what it is, interpretations and differences of opinions.

When it's internal, there is no need to talk.

I assume that is why Hindu don't talk about their experience.

God just is.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You missed the explaination I gave Loverofhumanity. Disagreeing doesn't mean it hasn't been explained. I'll find it. It was pretty recent.

413 pages and our atheists still haven't been able to explain the Great Being away?

 

[DavidFirth]

You missed the explaination I gave Loverofhumanity. Disagreeing doesn't mean it hasn't been explained. I'll find it. It was pretty recent.

Relax, Carlita, I was only joking.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We can know God through His Manifestations.

My point is, no we cannot. If god is unknowable, by definition, even his manifestations-actual people-would not know him. I mean, Moses couldn't look god in the face. Christians depict god as a human because the father cannot be seen. Jews don't describe god nor do Muslims.

You can use manifestations to relate to god since that's how you feel connected. By definition, though, if god is unknownable, he cannot be known at the same time.

So, if you say Bahaullah was not infallible, were are you evidences?

He is human.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In Bahai View, Prophets who are Manifestation of God, has a twofold station. On one hand He has an individuality, and a natural body. Their natural body is like any other human. So, when you say, Prophets are human too, this is correct in this sense. They have a second station, which is their Spiritual Station. Their Spiritual Station differs from human beings, in a sense that Their Soul reflects signs of divinity. For instance, a sign of divinity is omniscience. Bahaullah showed this sign. He was all-knowing according to history.

Unfortunately, you have two problems with this. Krishna is not man. Krishna is god. The Buddha is not god (nor any type of god or enlightenment of god or whatever). He says and is a man. The point of his enlightenment is that a man can achieve perfect wisdom of kamma.

Now, when I said previously you choose to ignore this, that is exactly what I mean. The invisible god is unknowable. But Bahaullah was not invisible. He came and lived among people. The Bahais would say, it is verifiable that Bahaullah was all-knowing if one chooses to investigate about Him.

You can't tell if I ignored something online. No assumptions.

Yes, this is similar to Christ. I do not agree in scripture Christ is god. So, I do not agree Bahaullah is any manifestation of god. I don't have time to read all of Bahaullah' writings. From what you guys posted and interpreted, no, it does not make sense because humans, by definition of abrahamic beliefs, cannot be equal to god. Christian and Bahai only makes this claim. There are many abrahamic faiths that do not.

Since your claim is like a Christians and Christ, I'll leave it with that. I understand the divinity you see in human beings but not to the point of idolism. Worship and "needing to believe" and submission are not values I take up.

Many simply choose not to even look into it, and when discussing it, try to find a way to scape. Everybody has the right to investigate, or choose not to. But, when discussing, it needs to be based on investigation and information.

That is false. If you are thinking "peace" maybe change your perspective. Many choose not to even look into it and they have a right without telling them they are escaping for what you believe is truth. It isn't for "everyone."

Unity among diversity cannot happen with this train of thought.

Investigation doesn't bring a person to religion. Their experience and first impressions do. Bahai goes strictly against my values just by reading your quotes and searching on my own. Unless you are not representing Bahaullah at all, it's safe to assume I have a justifiable reason to reject Bahaullah without feeling I lost out on something that is not part of my value system.

For example if you choose not to investigate, it is totally your right. If choose to say, you do not believe in Bahaullah, you have the right. But if you want to make a meaningful discussion, showing why Bahaullah is not manifestation, or is a manifestation of God, you should provide reasonable information, based on historical information, or evidences such as writings of Bahaullah. For example, Bahaullah wrote about 17000 works. Bahaullah claims He is infallible. He has and had many enemies. They read all His works trying to find a mistake, yet to my knowledge they did not find any. A human being cannot write 17000 works, about topics he never studied before, while in prison and exile, and yet no one could find any mistake in them. So, here is an evidence.

He is not because he is a human being. Once you make a human being equal to god, he is no longer a human. Abrahamic view is humans are limited. Once you make a prophet equal to god (and only trinitarian and bahai do this), they are no longer prophets. Abraham, Moses, etc were submissive to god. Muhammad the same. Krishna cannot be submissive because he is god himself. The Buddha cannot be submissive to a god that does not exist.

Nichiren Diashonin read all The Buddha's suttas. He was in prision during a Japanese war and they were about to behead him because he spoke against the Buddhist and Shinto practices in Japan. He put down Zen and other schools because they focused on worshiping The Buddha and not The Dhamma. As a result, they accidently missed his head; and, he felt it was a blessing from kamma (the laws of cause and affect) that he was fortunate enough. His disciples brought him clothing and food and wrote letters to him and he to them. He wrote on a scroll what he interpreted as The Ceremony in the Air on a scroll and summarize the message of Kamma as "I give my devotion to the laws of cause and effect." (to life-not god). He told his disciples to write them.

He also felt he was a votary and promised one that was prophesied from THe Buddha for him to spread the Dhamma for this age. He says, like Bahaullah, that the practices of other schools are only relevant for their day but the law of the Dhamma-Daimoku-is relevant for today.

The laws of cause and effect and Dhamma in general proves that everything we experience etc comes from our mind. Nichiren says that if mind is The Buddha and Buddha is the mind; how, therefore, the Mind be separate from the Dhamma.

Evidence of Dhamma without god is what I described to Lover (I think) about the evidences of no god. Bahaullah is a human therefore, I see no reason to believe he has knowledge of god since god is unknowable-as you said.

So, if you say Bahaullah was not infallible, were are you evidences?

He is human.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, this is your belief. Your ideas on facts go against any common definitions. Belief in God is a belief, not a fact. Yes we share that belief but it's still a belief. Your dogma makes your sense of it all much more rigid than mine, not open to other possibilities. Often this rises from insecurities and the need to keep convincing yourself. But its all good. Hinduism has far less dogma of that sort, so we're less rigid, more tolerant of other possibilities.

We Baha'is are all learning and still have a long way to go and although we do try as much as possible to be flexible and tolerant however we can't compromise on our basic laws or appease every fad that comes along just for the sake of popularity.

So for instance our laws are rigid and strict regarding things like homosexuality and same sex marriage because it is positively harmful for humanity even though they desire it.

Baha'u'llah's laws are meant to protect humanity from its own ignorance.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Another Baha'i' on this forum claimed that God is indeed knowable. At least he agreed with me when I said Hindus believe God is knowable. (Knowable in a mystical sense, not the external intellectual sense) .

This is the same as saying God is knowable in Attributes but not in Essence.

To which we agree.

Yes this is your belief. Beliefs are influenced by hundreds of people throughout history, not just 9 people. Marx, Tolstoy, Gandhi, Einstein, Plato, Aristotle, and several hundred more.

All people draw their knowledge from the Revelations given by the Manirestations of God.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

So, your question is, what is the Bahai view on Jesus teachings. The best answer, from the Bahai View is how Abdulbaha explained Christ:


Briefly, this Man, Who appeared lowly in the eyes of all, arose nonetheless with such power as to abrogate a fifteen-hundred-year-old Dispensation, notwithstanding that the least deviation from its laws would expose the offender to grave danger and bring about his death and annihilation.
Moreover, in the time of Christ the general morals and manners of the Israelites had become entirely confused and corrupted, and Israel had fallen into a state of utmost degradation, misery, and bondage. At one time they fell captive to the Chaldeans and the Persians; at another they were under the yoke of the Assyrian Empire. One day they became the subjects and vassals of the Greeks; another they were subjugated and humiliated by the Romans.
This young Man, Christ, through an extraordinary power abrogated the ancient Mosaic Law and undertook to reform the morals of the people. He once again laid the foundation of eternal honour for the Israelites—nay, He undertook to rehabilitate the fortunes of the entire human race—and spread abroad teachings that were not reserved for Israel alone but formed the basis for the universal happiness of human society.
The first to arise to destroy Him were the Israelites—His own people and kindred. And to outward seeming they indeed overcame Him and reduced Him to utter abasement, till at last they crowned Him with the crown of thorns and crucified Him. But this Man, while outwardly immersed in deepest affliction, proclaimed: “This Sun will rise, this Light will shine resplendent, My grace will encompass the world, and all Mine enemies will be confounded.” And even as He spoke, so it came to pass, for all the kings of the earth were unable to resist Him. Nay, all their standards were cast down, while the standard of that Wronged One was raised to the loftiest heights.
Is this at all possible in accordance with the rules of human reason? No, by God! Then it is clear and evident that this glorious Being was a true Educator of the world of humanity and that He was aided and assisted by a divine power."


There are just many evidences, the Bible writers and some early Christians had the same interpretations as Bahais have, on topics, such as 6 days creation, Return of Prophets, resurrection, Jesus Mirror of God, every religion has an end, so does Christianity...etc.

Here are some sources:

1. For the 6 days creation interpretation of early Christians ,and even Jews, see here:

Six Ages of the World - Wikipedia


2. As for the Return of Prophets, the Bible gives an example that, John the Baptist was return of Elijah.

3. Bahai Scriptures teach that resurrection of the dead is an allusion to coming of a divinely inspired, by which the (unbeliever), becomes alive (guided). These terms also are defined in Bible the same way. For instance Jesus said 'let the dead bury their dead'. It is obvious that Jesus was calling a man 'dead', because he was unbeliever. There are many other verses, that being alive or resurrected means, spiritually guided.

4. There are evidences that early Christians called Jesus, Morror of God. And that God is like the Sun. This is the exact analogy that Bahai Scriptures uses to explain the station of Manifestation of God. For an example of Christian source, see here:

"Through Him let us look steadfastly unto the heights of the heavens; through Him we behold as in a mirror His faultless and most excellent
visage...." 1Clem 36:2
Source: First Clement: Clement of Rome

Also:

the great theologian Origen (185-254 C.E.), citing the Book of Wisdom, called Christ 'the spotless mirror' of God's workings (Origen, On First Principles 26).
Source: Jesus the spotless mirror

St. Basil also explains the commandments that Jesus received by " the reflexion of an object in a mirror"
Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

5. Bahai scriptures teaches that Religion of God goes through seasons, like Spring, Summer...winter. There are verses of Bible that alludes to this. For instance in Chapter of Revelation, it is said the fruits of the tree falls, just as the stars fall. This is an allusion to the season of the Fall, when the tree has no more fruits. It is the end, and after that Spring comes (new revelation).

This was what I asked... "But why don't you tell me what the core beliefs of Christianity are to Baha'is?" Do you think you answered it? 'Cause that is not at all what I was looking for. So let ask you what do fundamental Christians have as their core beliefs? Then, why do Baha'is disagree?

 

[CG Didymus]

Catholics do not believe Peter was infallible interpreter of Word of God, and after Jesus, all must turn to him, and obey him, do they? Neither there is any verse in Bible saying all must obey the Catholics church as successors of Christ...

Where did I say Catholics believe Peter was the "infallible interpreter of Word of God"? I think they say he was the first Pope. However, Peter did write some things that are in the NT. Are those writings of Peter the infallible Word of God?

 

[CG Didymus]

For the first problem, I think its obvious that when you need something to prove your authenticity when none exists, the best way is to change the records.
For the second problem, I think we already knew that Baha'i is a product of Islam.


In Orthodox Judaism, no of course not. The Torah is replete with statements about G-d's Law being eternal. Instead we adopt modern times to the Law.
For non-Orthodox streams, then for one reason or another, yes they do seem to believe so.

It seems to me that whichever stream you follow, there doesn't seem to be a need for Baha'i.

Thanks, I'm so glad you're still responding to Baha'i posts on this thread. Like Christians, they take your Scriptures, out of context, and make them fit into their religions as proofs of prophecies fulfilled.

For a religion that calls for religious unity, and says that all religions are one, they find ways to push people from other religions away.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks, I'm so glad you're still responding to Baha'i posts on this thread. Like Christians, they take your Scriptures, out of context, and make them fit into their religions as proofs of prophecies fulfilled.

For a religion that calls for religious unity, and says that all religions are one, they find ways to push people from other religions away.

I see an open arms Invitation to Love the One God as one human race.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

...Man did not expect a flood they rejected the call of Noah... Regards Tony

Baha'is here have said the flood was symbolic, no real world-wide flood. Now you use it as if it was real. Which is it? Legend, myth, symbolic, real, local or world-wide? What do Baha'is believe about the flood story?