How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

"He hath known God who hath known himself." (Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 178)

Regards Tony

I was going by this, Tony: God in the Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia

If Wiki has it wrong, then I apologize. So I'm not sure.

From the article: "He is described as "a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible,'

 

[InvestigateTruth]

1) Yes, I know. I'm a Hindu. You don't need to teach me about Hinduism. I'll try not to teach you about Baha'i'.
2) Nor does belief make anything true. It is just belief or disbelief, nothing else. The belief in God does not make it true.

The Sources of Religion teaches about that Religion.
Someone may pretend to be a Bahai, but yet have no knowledge or very shallow knowledge of Bahai Faith. A person may pretend to be Hindu, Christian....or Muslim, but only outwardly claiming to be Hindu or Christian or Muslim.
It is not very seemly or logical to accept that just because a person claims to be followers of a particular Religion, therefore he has true knowledge of it.
So, if I want to know about Islam, I read and investigate the Source of Islam myself. I read the Quran and recorded Traditions.
If I want to know about Hinduism, I would certainly read its Sources myself. I want to see things with my own eyes, not through the eyes of others.
Just because I claim to be a Bahai, it does not mean, I know or understand Bahai Faith better than someone who is not a Bahai. In the same way, just because a person is Hindu, it does not mean necessarily he knows Hinduism better than someone who is not Hindu. It all depends how much a person has investigated into it. How much he has looked into its sources, and more importantly how good he was able to understand it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

A strong solid BELIEF is different from a fact, no matter how you want to interpret it. You can claim your beliefs are facts, just like Christians and Islamists do, but non-Baha'i' etc. are not Buying it. I've never claimed reincarnation to be a fact, just a Hindu belief. That's a far more reasonable stance, in my view. But at this point, this thread isn't really about being reasonable, is it?

Any discussion needs to be reasonable.

 

[Vinayaka]

The Sources of Religion teaches about that Religion.
Someone may pretend to be a Bahai, but yet have no knowledge or very shallow knowledge of Bahai Faith. A person may pretend to be Hindu, Christian....or Muslim, but only outwardly claiming to be Hindu or Christian or Muslim.
It is not very seemly or logical to accept that just because a person claims to be followers of a particular Religion, therefore he has true knowledge of it.
So, if I want to know about Islam, I read and investogate the Source of Islam myslef. I read the Quran and recorded Traditions.
If I want to know about Homduism, I would certainly read its Sources myself. I want to see things with my own eye, not through the eyes of others.
Just because I claim to be a Bahai, it does not mean, I know or understand Bahai Faith better than someone who is not a Bahai. In the same way, just because a person is Hindu, it does not mean neccessarily he knows Hinduism better than someone who is not Hindu. It all depends how much a person has investivated into it. How much he has looked into its sources, and more importantly how good he was able to understand it.

What's Homduism?

Regarding Hinduism, Good luck with exploring it. The Vedas are massive texts, and most texts only are sectarian in nature so you`ll only get the view of one school. Think Bahaì times 1000. But first you`ll have to learn Sanskrit, the original language.

 

[Vinayaka]

Any discussion needs to be reasonable.

In my view, this one has bordered on the unreasonable at times. When it`s nothing but `this is the way it is because of the words of our infallible prophet`then there often isn`t much discussion at all, unless you thing quoting another`s words is discussion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In my view, this one has bordered on the unreasonable at times. When it`s nothing but `this is the way it is because of the words of our infallible prophet`then there often isn`t much discussion at all, unless you thing quoting another`s words is discussion.

You would need to realize that, if I want to express the Bahai View, I quote the particular writing.
Of course, you as someone who does not believe in Bahaullah, do not have to take the quote as truth. I quote the Bahai Writings as a proof that, I am presenting the Bahai View correctly.

 

[Mister Silver]

How do we explain these Great Beings: Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab & Bahaullah? They are somewhat unique and unparalleled in human history and were clearly not ordinary people.

There are famous people in history, famous artists, musicians and scientists but none can compare to the influence of the Educator, Teacher, Messiah or Prophet.

But Who were they? And why were they and still are so influential throughout history? Why did they inspire civilizations? Why have their scriptures become patterns of life followed daily by billions of people for thousands of years?

What gift did they possess to be able to be persecuted, oppressed, tortured, exiled and crucified by the most despotic and powerful leaders of their age with but a handful of followers and yet eventually triumph over adversity and establish Their Cause all over the world?

Statues, Churches, Temples, Pagodas, Mosques and Synagogues are built all over the world to pay tribute to these Great Souls.

Are they from another world? Did they pre exist? Without a special power how could they have accomplished what they did and who is their equal in influence?

And aren't we in dire need of another Great Spiritual Teacher to revive us spiritually?

Trump is inspiring a nation. I hardly doubt it takes much effort to know one's audience and how to rally support.

What about Hitler? He certainly had his share of major support.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What's Homduism?

Regarding Hinduism, Good luck with exploring it. The Vedas are massive texts, and most texts only are sectarian in nature so you`ll only get the view of one school. Think Bahaì times 1000. But first you`ll have to learn Sanskrit, the original language.

I have already looked into subject of reincarnation from Hindu Sources, and even from Original Language, using a word to word Translation. I was just curios to see if it actually says reincarnation. My investigation confirmed for me, that, reincarnation is only an interpretation of the Hinduism Sources. It is a way to see it, only if one chooses to interpret it that way.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Your thoughts have foundation in this passage;

"....To a supreme degree is this true of man, who, among all created things, hath been invested with the robe of such gifts, and hath been singled out for the glory of such distinction. For in him are potentially revealed all the attributes and names of God to a degree that no other created being hath excelled or surpassed. All these names and attributes are applicable to him. Even as He hath said: “Man is My mystery, and I am his mystery.” Manifold are the verses that have been repeatedly revealed in all the Heavenly Books and the Holy Scriptures, expressive of this most subtle and lofty theme. Even as He hath revealed: “We will surely show them Our signs in the world and within themselves.” Again He saith: “And also in your own selves: will ye not, then, behold the signs of God?” And yet again He revealeth: “And be ye not like those who forget God, and whom He hath therefore caused to forget their own selves.” In this connection, He Who is the eternal King—may the souls of all that dwell within the mystic Tabernacle be a sacrifice unto Him—hath spoken: “He hath known God who hath known himself.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 177-179

Regards Tony

If god to you is unknowable than as with the rest of my post you would conclude god does not exist. If this quote agrees with me, god would not exist.

This quote is assuming god exists and saying he that exists has attributes and unknownable.

I am saying god does not exist in addition to the rest of my post because you cant prove something invisible by adding adjectives to describe it. It has to exist and be knownable before you know anything characteristics about it.

So even though we are both saying in theory or in fact god js unknownable, Im saying god does not exist because you cant prove a negative. You are saying he does he just a mystery but to you that doesnt make him non existant given the attributes bahaullah describes tof Him.

You are going off his existence and discribing his attributes

I am going off his non existence and that is why he is unknownable. Not because he is god but there is nothi g there to describe as god.

We are coming from two different perspectives. Not right or wrong.

Different

 

[Vinayaka]

You would need to realize that, if I want to express the Bahai View, I quote the particular writing.
Of course, you as someone who does not believe in Bahaullah, do not have to take the quote as truth. I quote the Bahai Writings as a proof that, I am presenting the Bahai View correctly.

What do you mean by 'the particular writing'. Often in this thread we get quotes that are totally unrelated to the particular topic at hand. It seems that you open a random page, or use some other process. other than finding a quote that is related.

Yes you quote the Baha'i' view. Why would you quote any other view to support Baha'i' teachings?

 

[Vinayaka]

I have already looked into subject of reincarnation from Hindu Sources, and even from Original Language, using a word to word Translation. I was just curios to see if it actually says reincarnation. My investigation confirmed for me, that, reincarnation is only an interpretation of the Hinduism Sources. It is a way to see it, only if one chooses to interpret it that way.

I didn't realise you had studied Sanskrit. Sorry for the misunderstanding. So you read the entire Vedas? The entire Agamas? That's quite the accomplishment. The belief of reincarnation would be there in many many instances. Otherwise it wouldn't be a core belief of Hindus. But you claiming it is false is fine. After all your infallible prophet said it was false, so according to Baha'i', it must be false.

THE DOCTRINE OF REINCARNATION: What Hindu Scriptures reveal? - Welcome to SaveTemples.org! Mission to Protect and Preserve Hinduism and Hindu Temples Worldwide.

Obviously you haven't looked very far. Can you quote from your Hindu source for me where it totally denied reincarnation as a Hindu belief?

 

[Vinayaka]

Consider, for instance there was a time, people believed earth was flat. For them, this was an obvious fact.

They claimed it was a fact because, like the people of today who claim beliefs are facts, they simply didn't understand the term 'fact'. They were using the term incorrectly, just as many people of faith do today. It's really not that hard to understand. Again, it is the difference between a strongly held belief, and a fact. Believe it or not, there is a difference.

Writing@CSU

 

[Mister Silver]

They claimed it was a fact because, like the people of today who claim beliefs are facts, they simply didn't understand the term 'fact'. They were using the term incorrectly, just as many people of faith do today. It's really not that hard to understand. Again, it is the difference between a strongly held belief, and a fact. Believe it or not, there is a difference.

The semantic apologetic energy radiating from you speaks volumes.

The problem with people attempting to validate their beliefs with nonsense merely proves that what they believe is nonsense.

 

[Vinayaka]

The semantic apologetic energy radiating from you speaks volumes.

The problem with people attempting to validate their beliefs with nonsense merely proves that what they believe is nonsense.

Despite being 'theistic', Hinduism is closer to atheism than it is to Abrahamism or Baha'i'. It has to do with the nature of 'God'. As our other atheist here, Carlita, has opined, 'I'm good with 'energy'.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Actually, re-read the post. I'm saying since there is no abrahamic god (no outside spirit/entity defined by a sacred book). This is how I see god:

"I don't see god over man. If I defined god, god is what defines man (edit) not an outside person. God Is life rather than gives life. That's how I see god....God is the source/life of a person not a person with whom can give words of morality.

Yes, i see what you say, and this is what I say:

In my view God is unknowable, and any god that any human imagines to exist, that god does not exist in reality, because that god would be the product of imagination.
But a number of persons had appeared in the history, who proclaimed that They were Messengers, or Manifestations of God, who had come with evidence as a proof that They are indeed Manifestations of the divinity.
Now, These beings, are no longer imaginations, because in reality They did appear in this World.
Some people choose to ignore Them, conviniently.
Bahais say, they believe in all of Them, as They came with clear evidences in their view.
To me, you choose to ignore Their divinity evidences. You have the right to do so do. But if we are discussing if They who had appeared are or are not Manifestation of divinity, we must have done a reasonable investigation, and be able to clearly point out why, the signs of divinity exist or does not exist in Them.
I have not seen this from you yet.

 

[Vinayaka]

In my view God is unknowable,
But a number of persons had appeared in the history, who proclaimed that They were Messengers, or Manifestations of God, who had come with evidence as a proof that They are indeed Manifestations of the divinity.

Another Baha'i' on this forum claimed that God is indeed knowable. At least he agreed with me when I said Hindus believe God is knowable. (Knowable in a mystical sense, not the external intellectual sense) .

The only two Baha'i' manifestations that I believe existed, and have fairly decent documentation are Baha'u'llah and Muhammed, the two most recent ones. The others all fall into much earlier history, and are therefore more subject to debate. To state their existence as fact is just more folly.

See post 8219.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Nope, no contradiction there, lol. You seem to have a rather odd interpretation of the word 'facts' as compared to others.

Anything that comes from God i believe is reality, truth and fact. I think that its man who's society is in such a mess and who is so confused that hasn't got his facts right.

I do not believe anyone has really experienced God who does not accept His Manifestation.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Despite being 'theistic', Hinduism is closer to atheism than it is to Abrahamism or Baha'i'. It has to do with the nature of 'God'. As our other atheist here, Carlita, has opined, 'I'm good with 'energy'.

Energy does not have 'Wisdom'.
Science does not define Energy, as a Person with Wisdom. It seems to me, this idea that god is energy is a product of imaginations. Is there anywhere in Hindu sources where a God, such as Shiva, says, he is Energy?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Trump is inspiring a nation. I hardly doubt it takes much effort to know one's audience and how to rally support.

What about Hitler? He certainly had his share of major support.

We're soeaking about infuiencing billions of people's daily lives thousands of years after They died. Only These Beings can claim to have achieved this if you look at past and present history.

 

[Vinayaka]

Anything that comes from God i believe is reality, truth and fact. I think that its man who's society is in such a mess and who is so confused that hasn't got his facts right.

Yes, this is your belief. Your ideas on facts go against any common definitions. Belief in God is a belief, not a fact. Yes we share that belief but it's still a belief. Your dogma makes your sense of it all much more rigid than mine, not open to other possibilities. Often this rises from insecurities and the need to keep convincing yourself. But its all good. Hinduism has far less dogma of that sort, so we're less rigid, more tolerant of other possibilities.