How are these Great Beings explained?

[Sundance]

I do not believe God said to Hindus, break free from cycle of birth and death. We would need to look into original scriptures from Krishna, for example. The accuracy and correct interpretations are important. You would need to quote from Krishna on this.

@InvestigateTruth, as someone who's been a Gaudiya Vaishnava previously, I can answer your question.

In The Gita, Looking out at the battlefield of Kurukshetra, Lord Krishna says to Arjuna,

“Never have I not existed, nor you, nor these kings, O Arjun, and never in the future shall we cease to exist.”

Here, Lord Krishna in plain language establishes the eternality of the soul, the True Self, Atman. The soul is eternal, not created nor able to be destroyed.

Bahá’ís do not believe this about the Soul, do they?

Later in Gita, Krishna says to Arjun (again, unambiguously),

“Many, many births both you and I have passed. I can remember all of them, but you cannot, O subduer of the enemy!”

The above quote clearly teaches reincarnation. Many births, many lives. We just can't remember them, but Lord Krishna does. Jai!

Some very helpful articles for you to explore, I've posted below.

Reincarnation

Understanding Reincarnation from Bhagavad-gita

Reincarnation

Check em out.

Before I forget, snce I'm putting Krishna's Words out here, the only proper ending:

HARE KRSNA, HARE KRSNA
KRSNA KRSNA, HARE HARE
HARE RAMA, HARE RAMA
RAMA RAMA, HARE HARE

Happy hunting, brother! Peace.

 

[Vinayaka]

Sometimes I think this whole Baha'i' thing has to be a parody, a precursor to the FSM church, and all of us have been hoodwinked by a few people making a lot of noise about some preposterous ideas, while sitting around in some pub laughing at all of us for being so gullible.

 

[RoaringSilence]

Sometimes I think this whole Baha'i' thing has to be a parody, a precursor to the FSM church, and all of us have been hoodwinked by a few people making a lot of noise about some preposterous ideas, while sitting around in some pub laughing at all of us for being so gullible.

i told you man they digging info to counter...every religion.. motive = law one rule their solution is uniformity ours is unity in diversity and colorful They have to live in india to understand how can chaos mean order lol. hard concept to grasp.. but you have to be pro lifer than a pro end of the worldist.

chaos can be order... don't believe that ? you know nothing then. uni polar= peace ..but that is distasteful. multi polar= anti totalitarian no one has enough power to make a difference beyond human capacity. why 330 million gods? PLURALISM multiparty for a diverse world. Subscribe for more lessons on simple vision vs sight . this is my humble opinion ... HUMBLE IN CAPS.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@InvestigateTruth, as someone who's been a Gaudiya Vaishnava previously, I can answer your question.

In The Gita, Looking out at the battlefield of Kurukshetra, Lord Krishna says to Arjuna,

“Never have I not existed, nor you, nor these kings, O Arjun, and never in the future shall we cease to exist.”

Here, Lord Krishna in plain language establishes the eternality of the soul, the True Self, Atman. The soul is eternal, not created nor able to be destroyed.

Bahá’ís do not believe this about the Soul, do they?

Later in Gita, Krishna says to Arjun (again, unambiguously),

“Many, many births both you and I have passed. I can remember all of them, but you cannot, O subduer of the enemy!”

The above quote clearly teaches reincarnation. Many births, many lives. We just can't remember them, but Lord Krishna does. Jai!

Some very helpful articles for you to explore, I've posted below.

Reincarnation

Understanding Reincarnation from Bhagavad-gita

Reincarnation

Check em out.

Before I forget, snce I'm putting Krishna's Words out here, the only proper ending:

HARE KRSNA, HARE KRSNA
KRSNA KRSNA, HARE HARE
HARE RAMA, HARE RAMA
RAMA RAMA, HARE HARE

Happy hunting, brother! Peace.

Hi Dj-xse,

Those quotes are in complete agreement with Bahai Scriptures. See, I quote similar islamic traditions, which Bahaullah confirms:


"Have not this people exemplified the mysteries of “rebirth” and “return”? Hath it not been witnessed that these same people, ere they were endued
with the new and wondrous grace of God, sought through innumerable devices to ensure the
protection of their lives against destruction?"

"Have they not heard the melody of that bird of Heaven, uttering this mystery: “A thousand Fáṭimihs I have espoused, all of whom were the daughters of Muḥammad, Son of ‘Abdu’lláh, the ‘Seal of the Prophets’”?
..strive thou to comprehend the meaning of the melody of that eternal beauty, Ḥusayn, son of ‘Alí, who, addressing Salmán, spoke words such as these: “I was with a thousand Adams, the interval between each and the next Adam was fifty thousand years, and to each one of these I declared the Successorship conferred upon my father.” He then recounteth certain details, until he saith: “I have fought one thousand battles in the path of God, the least and most insignificant of which was like the battle of Khaybar, in which battle my father fought and contended against the infidels.” Endeavor now to apprehend from these two traditions the mysteries of “end,” “return,” and
“creation without beginning or end.” "


"O brother, behold how the inner mysteries of “rebirth,” of “return,” and of “resurrection” have each, through these all-sufficing, these unanswerable, and conclusive utterances, been unveiled and unraveled before thine eyes. God grant that through His gracious and invisible assistance, thou mayest divest thy body and soul of the old garment, and array thyself with the new and imperishable attire.
Therefore, those who in every subsequent Dispensation preceded the rest of mankind in embracing the Faith of God, who quaffed the clear waters of knowledge at the hand of the divine Beauty, and attained the loftiest summits of faith and certitude, these can be regarded, in name, in
reality, in deeds, in words, and in rank, as the “return” of those who in a former Dispensation had achieved similar distinctions. For whatsoever the people of a former Dispensation have manifested, the same hath been shown by the people of this latter generation. Consider the rose: whether it
blossometh in the East or in the West, it is nonetheless a rose. For what mattereth in this respect is not the outward shape and form of the rose, but rather the smell and fragrance which it doth impart."


"O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me. Followers of the Gospel! If ye cherish the desire to slay Muḥammad, the Apostle of God, seize Me and put an end to My life, for I am He, and My Self is His Self. Do unto Me as ye like, for the deepest longing of Mine heart is to attain the presence of My Best-Beloved in His Kingdom of Glory. Such is the Divine decree, if ye know it. Followers of Muḥammad! If it be your wish to riddle with your shafts the breast of Him Who hath caused His Book the Bayán to be sent down unto you, lay hands on Me and persecute Me, for I am His Well-Beloved, the revelation of His own Self, though My name be not His name."

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hi Dj-xse,

Those quotes are in complete agreement with Bahai Scriptures. See, I quote similar islamic traditions, which Bahaullah confirms:


"Have not this people exemplified the mysteries of “rebirth” and “return”? Hath it not been witnessed that these same people, ere they were endued
with the new and wondrous grace of God, sought through innumerable devices to ensure the
protection of their lives against destruction?"

"Have they not heard the melody of that bird of Heaven, uttering this mystery: “A thousand Fáṭimihs I have espoused, all of whom were the daughters of Muḥammad, Son of ‘Abdu’lláh, the ‘Seal of the Prophets’”?
..strive thou to comprehend the meaning of the melody of that eternal beauty, Ḥusayn,
son of ‘Alí, who, addressing Salmán, spoke words such as these: “I was with a thousand Adams, the
interval between each and the next Adam was fifty thousand years, and to each one of these I
declared the Successorship conferred upon my father.” He then recounteth certain details, until he
saith: “I have fought one thousand battles in the path of God, the least and most insignificant of
which was like the battle of Khaybar, in which battle my father fought and contended against the infidels.” Endeavor now to apprehend from these two traditions the mysteries of “end,” “return,” and
“creation without beginning or end.” "


"O brother, behold how the inner mysteries of “rebirth,” of “return,” and of “resurrection” have
each, through these all-sufficing, these unanswerable, and conclusive utterances, been unveiled and unraveled before thine eyes. God grant that through His gracious and invisible assistance, thou mayest divest thy body and soul of the old garment, and array thyself with the new and imperishable attire.
Therefore, those who in every subsequent Dispensation preceded the rest of mankind in
embracing the Faith of God, who quaffed the clear waters of knowledge at the hand of the divine
Beauty, and attained the loftiest summits of faith and certitude, these can be regarded, in name, in
reality, in deeds, in words, and in rank, as the “return” of those who in a former Dispensation had achieved similar distinctions. For whatsoever the people of a former Dispensation have manifested,
the same hath been shown by the people of this latter generation. Consider the rose: whether it
blossometh in the East or in the West, it is nonetheless a rose. For what mattereth in this respect is not the outward shape and form of the rose, but rather the smell and fragrance which it doth impart."


O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me. Followers of the Gospel! If ye cherish the desire to slay Muḥammad, the Apostle of God, seize Me and put an end to My life, for I am He, and My Self is His Self. Do unto Me as ye like, for the deepest longing of Mine heart is to attain the presence of My Best-Beloved in His Kingdom of Glory. Such is the Divine decree, if ye know it. Followers of Muḥammad! If it be your wish to riddle with your shafts the breast of Him Who hath caused His Book the Bayán to be sent down unto you, lay hands on Me and persecute Me, for I am His Well-Beloved, the revelation of His own Self, though My name be not His name.

Investigator. I think you, Tony, and Lover have different interpretations of the Bahai faith. When I read Bahaullahs writings and about it I read it without bias because I have no background. Here is what I found:

-

(To an individual believer, April 1, 1946) Lights of Guidance

'The Bahá’í view of 'reincarnation' is essentially different from the Hindu conception. The Bahá’ís believe in the return of the attributes and qualities, but maintain that the essence or the reality of things cannot be made to return. Every being keeps its own individuality, but some of his qualities can be transmitted. The doctrine of metempsychosis upheld by the Hindus is fallacious.'

-

(To an individual believer, March 27, 1938)

'Evolution in the life of the individual starts with the formation of the human embryo and passes through various stages, and even continues after death in another form. The human spirit is capable of infinite development.

'Man's identity or rather his individuality is never lost. His reality as a person remains intact throughout the various states of his development. He does not preexist in any form before coming into this world.'

--

To: The Universal House of Justice
Date: 25 April 1995
From: Research Department

1. Reincarnation, the Soul and the Concept of "Return"

1.1 The Spiritual Assembly is correct that Bahá’ís do not believe in reincarnation. We have several references in the Bahá’í Writings which state that the concept of reincarnation is based on an incorrect view of the progress of the soul and life after death. For example,Reincarnation is a "man-made doctrine" [15, 16]. "No Revelation from God has ever taught reincarnation" [15]. Bahá’u’lláh would have mentioned it in His Teachings if it had any importance or reality [17].



Transmigration of Souls (Hinduism)

The idea of the transmigration of souls is also present in Hinduism. Generally speaking, a human soul evolves from incarnation to incarnation. Therefore, it is normal for a human soul to be born again and again only in human bodies until liberation. But there may be rare exceptions. In these exceptional cases a human soul may be born once or twice in a subhuman body to work out very bad Karma. When the bad Karma is worked out, the soul incarnates again in a human body and goes through the process of gradual spiritual evolution.

-

I will be honest. It does not matter would you believe. Your belief says X and their belief says Y. Everyone has a right to their beliefs and opinions.

No one has the right to present their beliefs of other religions and people as facts. Its like saying I have a red shirt and you insist that god told you I wear blue. If you believe in humanity and diversity, dont interpret other peoples religious system.

Yes, you are wrong. We know this. Thats not more the issue than correcting us and agreeing with us at the same time.

 

[Vinayaka]

I

Yes, you are wrong. We know this. Thats not more the issue than correcting us and agreeing with us at the same time.

Thank you for the research, although I think we've seen it before. But it begs the question: If you're nor listening and understanding what your own prophet, Guardian, or House of Justice is saying on a topic, just who are you listening to?

A really odd thing, to me, is that all the non-Baha'i' here feel it's fine to disagree. It's far more honest just to say, "That's fine, but it's not how we see it." The world is diverse. But instead, there's this almost zany insistence that we're all believing the same thing. The world can easily get along, just by respect alone. It doesn't need to be about 'I'm right and you're wrong." It's weird, this whole 'dig in deeper' approach. Not very conciliatory at all.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm being blunt.

Are you saying you know more than a Jew knows about his own faith?

Me, no not at all, I am mostly ignorant.

That is something you will have to ask of Baha'u'llah, it is Baha'u'llah's Message from God to all Humanity to those of all and no religion, to those with and without Faith.

I ask if this Message is true, then what?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Investigator. I think you, Tony, and Lover have different interpretations of the Bahai faith.

Carlita - We all have different levels of understanding but we are saying the same thing.

Yes we do not beleive in physical reincarnation. A person reading both sets of writings can understand they say the same thing in a different way.

What is being said is that Baha'u'llah has confirmed the returns talked about are a spiritual event and have deep spiritual meanings.

You need to read both sets of writings with no perconceived ideas and also consider what science says on the subject, Science can not be discarded.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Oh, that's so interesting, I'm sure.

It is so much more than interesting

Consider that one has to read and understand spiritual scriptures with spiritual eyes and understanding.

G-d bless you always.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Me, no not at all, I am mostly ignorant.

That is something you will have to ask of Baha'u'llah, it is Baha'u'llah's Message from God to all Humanity to those of all and no religion, to those with and without Faith.

I ask if this Message is true, then what?

Regards Tony

Well. The only people I know who are alive in spirit are my family member, christ, and spirit in general. I can ask you since you're alive but I don't know Bahaullah personally, by experience, nor through sacraments to say anything about him personally.

Though, what I posted to Investigator kind of got me with the reincarnation thing. It's one thing to be ignorant; nothing wrong with that. It's a whole 'nother for anyone to rebut something they do not know personally or even academically at best.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Carlita - We all have different levels of understanding but we are saying the same thing.

Yes we do not beleive in physical reincarnation. A person reading both sets of writings can understand they say the same thing in a different way.

What is being said is that Baha'u'llah has confirmed the returns talked about are a spiritual event and have deep spiritual meanings.

You need to read both sets of writings with no perconceived ideas and also consider what science says on the subject, Science can not be discarded.

Regards Tony

Actually, @InvestigateTruth does agree (as many Bahai do) with Hinduism and compared to to his belief by saying they matched. In other words, saying both definitions of reincarnation are the same.

Reincarnation is not the appropriate word to refer to the essence of someone coming back without referring to their physical bodies. The issue isn't what you teach, again, it's using the words and descriptions of other faiths to mirror (or agree) with your own when they do not.

The words Bahai use are inappropriate for describing their distinct beliefs. Agreeing with people's beliefs is inappropriate when you (third-person) are telling people scripture says X when they, as believers and practitioners say scripture says Y.

Your beliefs are different. As soon as you compare them to the core as if "reincarnation" in Bahai and HIndu are the same as Investigator did, it is no longer difference of beliefs. Now, it's open for either side to be corrected. The only people who have the right to correct the other are the people who practice the religion.


Also, you, Arthra, and Investigator have totally different views on Bahai that it's not interpretation it's just different beliefs all together. I cannot take away the bias unless I follow your faith.

Again, it's not about reading scripture, comparing science, and all of that. It's about practice-and practice only.

Not study but practice

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well. The only people I know who are alive in spirit are my family member, christ, and spirit in general.

This is how you find Baha'u'llah. The Messengers of God are the Spirit of Life. You can ask them a question anytime, all genuine heart felt questions are answered. You ask and then await the answer. It will come. Sometimes instant, sometimes after a lapse if time. It is all given to our need.

All Spirits that have walked this earth still exist.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Though, what I posted to Investigator kind of got me with the reincarnation thing. It's one thing to be ignorant; nothing wrong with that. It's a whole 'nother for anyone rebut something they do not know personally or even academically at best.

I understood what he was saying with the reply as would any oerson that has pursued the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

They are the key to understanding all the Holy Books of the past.

Can this be confirmed, yes but only by seing if it is so by ones own just search.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This is how you find Baha'u'llah. The Messengers of God are the Spirit of Life. You can ask them a question anytime, all genuine heart felt questions are answered. You ask and then await the answer. It will come. Sometimes instant, sometimes after a lapse if time. It is all given to our need.

All Spirits that have walked this earth still exist.

Regards Tony

Tony, I don't believe in messengers of god being intermediary's between the person and god. One should go to god alone or as a community not depend on someone you don't know both in person and in spirit. They are interconnected.

Also, I had a de ja vu. Catholics tell me this a lot. Well meaning, yes. Just both of you don't see the harm it does. Just Roses and Pedals.

Almost as if you can't see how people are harmed by believing in god period. I don't know how to express it. I mean, just because I receive protection, messages, and relationship with my family in spirit does not mean I would say the same thing to you and tell you to open up to it.

Why would you want to open up to my family members?

Spirituality is personal. Many people come to faith because they are drawn or so have you. However, not many people are drawn to faiths that already have an expectation of that person to follow. It's a form of coercion. Can't think of the right word right now.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Also, you, Arthra, and Investigator have totally different views on Bahai that it's not interpretation it's just different beliefs all together. I cannot take away the bias unless I follow your faith.

We all have different ways of delivering the same Truth, each from our own understanding and frame of Reference.

Investigate Truth said rightly that both Scriptures agree with each other. I also see this to be so.

It was not said that the current Hindu Interpretation was agreed to. It is others that see it this way.

Go read again knowing this.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I understood what he was saying with the reply as would any oerson that has pursued the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

They are the key to understanding all the Holy Books of the past.

Can this be confirmed, yes but only by seing if it is so by ones own just search.

Regards Tony

Do you understand why Hinduis, Jews, and Christians (and a Muslim) corrects you?

I could either say "but what I interpreted is correct. You believe whatever you wish" or I can say "Hmm. I will correct my belief so I learn something new and next time I talk about it, I will be in correct in my understanding of your faith."

That is all we are saying on this thread. Nothing more.

-

I do like to have Investigator comment on that post and Vinakaya's though. When you use the world reincarnation and agree and relate it to Hinduism, when us non-hindu and non-bahai read this, we think you are comparing your version of reincarnation with theirs. Reincarnation isn't the appropriate word for what you described. It shouldn't even be compared to reincarnation (as some did) but should be a separate entity or separate belief specific to Bahai only.

Not an agreement.
Not a similarity.

Just your belief. Then we understand it more as your belief and have respect for your belief because it's, well, yours. That is the beauty of looking at differences.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We all have different ways of delivering the same Truth, each from our own understanding and frame of Reference.

Investigate Truth said rightly that both Scriptures agree with each other. I also see this to be so.

It was not said that the current Hindu Interpretation was agreed to. It is others that see it this way.

Go read again knowing this.

Regards Tony

I think some of you (hate using All) agreed to just about everything Vanakya and I have said.

Lover and Investigator started the discussion on this thread, though. When you came in, you did the same thing... agreeing to pretty much everything we said. If you disagreed, it was indirect therefore, vague.

You are clear with what you agree with but not with what you disagree with.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You are clear with what you agree with but not with what you disagree with.

Ha ha I do not agree with that.

We have been clear that current interpretations of scriptures are flawed.

We offer a Different Frame of Reference.

A Frame others have not accepted or even considered.

Look up Frame of Reference.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ha ha I do not agree with that.

We have been clear that current interpretations of scriptures are flawed.

We offer a Different Frame of Reference.

A Frame others have not accepted or even considered.

Look up Frame of Reference.

Regards Tony

When you say "our religion says the same..."
"our religion teaches similar..."
"our religion is the same but different names..."

That is agreeing.

Where we disagree... gosh, that's like pulling food out of your teeth. I mean, you already said you chose not to look at differences [because they cause division]. Did you change your mind?

 

[Vinayaka]

I do like to have Investigator comment on that post and Vinakaya's though. When you use the world reincarnation and agree and relate it to Hinduism, when us non-hindu and non-bahai read this, we think you are comparing your version of reincarnation with theirs.

Carlita, even within Hinduism, there are various interpretations of reincarnation. Hindus will all agree to disagree, but maintain civility, and agree not to argue endlessly about it. For example, some sects believe that humans can be reincarnated as animals, while others like mine, just don't.

So it begs the question, which version of Hinduism's many versions of reincarnation do the Baha'i' feel is the same as theirs? It obviously can't be ALL of them. (As far as I know, it's none of them, but I'm not all that familiar with the other ones outside my sampradaya.)