How are these Great Beings explained?

[CG Didymus]

It's the social and some spiritual,teachings that each subsequent religion brings that is the reason we should accept each as they are revealed.

For instance. Jesus did not teach about community but primarily individual behaviour. Muhammad however taught Ummah, that is He brought about the National State amongst the Arabs giving them social laws and a constitution and teachings how to live together as a nation...

But, Moses came before both of them and had laws for the people of Israel. So that don't fit with your scheme of things.

Also, if Jesus taught about the individual. What did Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster and any others you consider manifestations teach? Especially, because there was great civilizations that existed prior to Islam bringing people the rules on how to become a nation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This passage allows for all other Gods sheep to be part of that Body, John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

This is what the Baha'i's see, that Christ has indeed offered this through Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

You cannot be part of the body of Christ if Bahaullah is a manifestation of god.

You can follow christ teachings, believe in the bible, and the whole nine yards. But the bible isn't about the progression of prophets outside of the OT and it's not about any religious prophet that did not live before the last apostle passed away. Nor is Bahaullah part of the Church nor is he in scripture explicitly.

I went over this with a couple other Bahai here, though. You can't be part of the body of Christ if you are a Bahai. Plain and simple.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This passage allows for all other Gods sheep to be part of that Body, John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

This is what the Baha'i's see, that Christ has indeed offered this through Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

You cannot be part of the body of Christ if Bahaullah is a manifestation of god.

You can follow christ teachings, believe in the bible, and the whole nine yards. But the bible isn't about the progression of prophets outside of the OT and it's not about any religious prophet that did not live before the last apostle passed away. Nor is Bahaullah part of the Church nor is he in scripture explicitly.

I went over this with a couple other Bahai here, though. You can't be part of the body of Christ if you are a Bahai. Plain and simple.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This passage allows for all other Gods sheep to be part of that Body, John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

This is what the Baha'i's see, that Christ has indeed offered this through Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

You cannot be part of the body of Christ if Bahaullah is a manifestation of god.

You can follow christ teachings, believe in the bible, and the whole nine yards. But the bible isn't about the progression of prophets outside of the OT and it's not about any religious prophet that did not live before the last apostle passed away. Nor is Bahaullah part of the Church nor is he in scripture explicitly.

I went over this with a couple other Bahai here, though. You can't be part of the body of Christ if you are a Bahai. Plain and simple.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes this is so One only needs a slight change in "Frame of Reference" on each of the subjects that have become the doctrines of Christianity.

Forgiveness of Sins now fully explained in great detail in many ways.

Resurrection now fully explained in many ways and in great detail.

Evil now fully explained in many ways in great detail.

Thus one does not give up but comes to a fuller knowledge and Love of Christ.

Regards Tony

What? A slight change? No, what kind of guidance about who God is and what he expects from his people, let's them believe in something that is totally wrong? Christians depend on the Bible as being the truth. They depend on the NT for telling the story of Jesus accurately. Baha'is make everything symbolic.

As I understand it, there were different groups of people that had more "spiritual" and "symbolic" interpretations. They were called heretics. Are you saying they were closer to the truth then the Roman Church, the Orthodox Church, and later, the Protestant Churches?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This passage allows for all other Gods sheep to be part of that Body, John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

This is what the Baha'i's see, that Christ has indeed offered this through Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

You cannot be part of the body of Christ if Bahaullah is a manifestation of god.

You can follow christ teachings, believe in the bible, and the whole nine yards. But the bible isn't about the progression of prophets outside of the OT and it's not about any religious prophet that did not live before the last apostle passed away. Nor is Bahaullah part of the Church nor is he in scripture explicitly.

I went over this with a couple other Bahai here, though. You can't be part of the body of Christ if you are a Bahai. Plain and simple.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This passage allows for all other Gods sheep to be part of that Body, John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

This is what the Baha'i's see, that Christ has indeed offered this through Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

You cannot be part of the body of Christ if Bahaullah is a manifestation of god.

You can follow christ teachings, believe in the bible, and the whole nine yards. But the bible isn't about the progression of prophets outside of the OT and it's not about any religious prophet that did not live before the last apostle passed away. Nor is Bahaullah part of the Church nor is he in scripture explicitly.

I went over this with a couple other Bahai here, though. You can't be part of the body of Christ if you are a Bahai. Plain and simple.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You cannot be part of the body of Christ if Bahaullah is a manifestation of god.

.

Yes, you can. Because when we talk about 'Christ', we are not talking about the individuality of Jesus, Son of Marry. We are talking about, the Spiritual Reality. Jesus was like a Mirror, reflecting the Image of God. Bahaullah was also like a Mirror, reflecting the image of God. Thus, In both of them the same image is manifested. Thus, Bahaullah and Jesus are One and the Same. It's just that, They appeared in two different Ages.

Do not Christians believe Jesus was the spotless Mirror of God?

Devotions to the holy infancy of our Lord Jesus Christ; or New month of Jesus, tr. by M.J. Piercy

"The document called 1 Clement, a letter from the Roman congregation to that at Corinth uses the language of the biblical book of Hebrews to portray Jesus as the reflection of God's splendor, the "mirror" of "God's... transcendent face"
Source: Jesus Mirror of God

"Through Him let us look steadfastly unto the heights of the heavens; through Him we behold as in a mirror His faultless and most excellent
visage...." 1Clem 36:2
Source: First Clement: Clement of Rome

Also:

the great theologian Origen (185-254 C.E.), citing the Book of Wisdom, called Christ 'the spotless mirror' of God's workings (Origen, On First Principles 26).
Source: Jesus the spotless mirror

St. Basil also explains the commandments that Jesus received by " the reflexion of an object in a mirror"
Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These early Christian got their belief from the verses of Bible that describe Jesus as a Mirror and as Image of God, such as 2 cori 3-18:

"and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."

 

[CG Didymus]

It is essentially a polytheistic belief system with a father god, mother earth, and various other gods. There is a great deal of mythology that has been passed down through oral tradition as the Maori did not read or write. There is a world view that sees man as having a spirit (wairua) and there being certain sacred laws that can not be breached (tapu).

Māori religion - Wikipedia

Traditional Māori religion – ngā karakia a te Māori – Te Ara Encyclopedia of New Zealand

Were they better off with their tribal beliefs and society, or with their situation today? Not that their religion was perfect, but it held them together and kept order. But how can you get from many gods to one God? I see a progression, but it's not like the Baha'i concept of "progressive" revelation. It's a more dominant culture that believes it's religion to be the only right one... telling the conquered people everything they believe in is false. And, I'm sure in most cases, the old ways were outlawed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, although it's John talking here, not Jesus, what he says is symbolic? So, when Jesus heals a crippled man or a person with leprosy, it's the same thing... symbolic? I don't get it. Four different gospel writers, supposedly telling the story of what Jesus said and did, and it's all symbolic? So, for you, Jesus never physically healed anyone? Boy, how wrong have Christians been. For two thousand years they've been saying Jesus can heal the physically lame and physically sick. So, for the tenth time I ask, therefore Christianity as taught and believed has been wrong from the beginning?

These are subjects that require many branches of Discussion. Thus no, Jesus could do both as could Muhammad the Bab and Baha'u'llah. But this was not their purpose. they came to bring us to the Love of God, to the great miracle of the change of heart.

This is the lesson given in this Bible Passage

Mark 1:40-45 Jesus Heals a Man with a Bad Skin Disease 40 A man came to Jesus with a bad skin disease. This man got down on his knees and begged Jesus, saying, “If You want to, You can heal me.” 41 Jesus put His hand on him with loving-pity. He said, “I want to. Be healed.” 42 At once the disease was gone and the man was healed. 43 Jesus spoke strong words to the man before He sent him away. 44 He said to him, “Tell no one about this. Go and let the religious leader of the Jews see you. Give the gifts Moses has told you to give when a man is healed of a disease. Let the leaders know you have been healed.” 45 But the man went out and talked about it everywhere. After this Jesus could not go to any town if people knew He was there. He had to stay in the desert. People came to Him from everywhere.

The healing Jesus wanted the Man to Spread was that of "Give the gifts Moses has told you to give when a man is healed of a disease".

If we look at Exodus15:26 we see that is; "And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee..." King James Bible : Exodus

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

In Hinduism there is a ton that's incompatible. The view about other religions, the belief in karma, cremation, temple worship, murthy worship, the need for a prophet, the belief in a prophet, femae gods, just a ton. But they just pick a few vague ideas that they are compatible with and pretend that's all there is to Hinduism. lol. It may work for them, but I really don't think very many people are fooled.

Well, like we've noticed. The Baha'is came out of an Islamic culture. Their world will be filled with laws like Judaism and Islam... except more liberal. Will they win over the world? That's the thing. The world is supposedly heading for some disastrous times. The people are going to see that the Baha'is have a system of government that works and will want the Baha'is to rule.

Christians says we're heading for disaster and then Jesus will come back and save the day. But, Christians also say that God is not the author of confusion... yeah right.

 

[CG Didymus]

A lot of it must be repetitive too. But I'm glad you're here.

Thanks, but it's you and Carlita doing all the work. I just come in and try and throw in a spiritual monkey wrench into the works. I think they're on to me, though. One of them is trying to pin me down to what I believe.

 

[arthra]

Actually the Bible itself is a good example in our view of what we call "progressive revelation"... this allows past dispensations who had regulations that pertained to their early circumstances such as the tribal conditions of the deserts of the middle east... Later as conditions changed Jesus brought the Sermon on the Mount... "You have heard it said... but I say unto you." Jesus disciples had other ways of religious life... Fasting in secret.. Praying in their closet, etc. So the religious laws and regulations alter from age to age suited to the circumstances people face.

The system of government recommended by Baha'u'llah is for the rulers themselves to have a representative world parliament with an international court of arbitration... It's up to them to set it up. Today we have the UN and an international court of arbitration... We Baha'is envision a future world civilization... but it's not just for Baha'is. Baha'is are non-partisan in all the countries where they live.. Not only that.. Baha'is cannot run for partisan office. Mere number alone are not what the world needs right now..

Look not at the small number; nay, rather seek the pure hearts. One holy soul is better than one thousand other souls. If a few souls gather together in a beloved meeting with the feelings of the Kingdom, with the divine attractions, with pure hearts and with absolute purity and holiness, to consort in spirit and fragrance, that gathering will have its effect upon all the world.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - p. 409)

 

[CG Didymus]

It is seen that the 9 are Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islám, Bab and Baha'u'llah and the religion of the Sabaeans. These religions are not the only true religions that have appeared in the world, but are the only ones still existing and practiced.

Of course these have many Divisions except for the Bab and Baha'u'llah which now remains and will remain Undivided.

Regards Tony

Undivided? Only because you don't recognize the break away group. They have their own Guardian and say you guys are wrong. The Christian Church could say the same thing. Any one of them could say that theirs is only one true Church and that all the others a fakes.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Lots of individual schools work on it. Sri Chinmoy's group has peace marches in New York City, and created the U Thant Peace Award. U Thant Peace Award - Wikipedia

Looks good. Interesting choice with Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe as recipient of a peace award in 1996. Otherwise its great that it has been awarded to peoples of different countries and of different faiths that would clearly be more universally recognised as promoters of peace.

Art of Living works on it. BAPS works on it. Because ahimsa is just such a core value to most Hindus, we're all working on it in one way or another. I'm sure your local Sai Center there does some sort of community service. We've also given safe refuge to leaders like the Dalai Lama. I would argue that the existence of the Baha'i' temple in India is partly due to Hindu tolerance and peace factors.

It is true that the Baha'is have relied on the hospitality and good will of host countries to have our temples and administrative centres established, but then it works the same way for all faiths. New Zealand hasn't put up too many barriers for Hindu temples and I'm sure most western countries are the same. Fundamentalist Islamic counties would be different and I'm sure if the fundamentalist Christians had their way, there would be some barriers from them as well.

One member of the Dunedin Sai baba community is a general practitioner like myself, so he set up a medical centre about 15 years ago to assist those on low income to access healthcare. I have chosen to work in with the Christians rather than go it alone.

But Hinduism as an overall religion is somewhat if not incredibly disorganised. Really its about 1000 religions rolled into one.

I imagine it must be hard coordinating such a diverse and perhaps disparate group. Are there any central administrative structures?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No you can't. Please please stop quote referencing and giving me links. I can't read all the links all at once, comment on them, and then rephrase my questions that haven't been answered in between the quotes and unrelated comments.

Yes, you can. Because when we talk about 'Christ', we are not talking about the individuality of Jesus, Son of Marry. We are talking about, the Spiritual Reality. Jesus was like a Mirror, reflecting the Image of God. Bahaullah was also like a Mirror, reflecting the image of God. Thus, In both of them the same image is manifested. Thus, Bahaullah and Jesus are One and the Same. It's just that, They appeared in two different Ages.

Bahaullah and jesus are not one and the same. Bahaullah was a gentile Indian (right?) and jesus was a jew. They had different covenants, different parts of the world, different time periods, with different teachings relevant for today.

Mainstream christianity, jesus is god. Non-mainstream, jesus shares in his father's divinity. Not even Abraham and Moses shared in god's divinity, so I don't see Bahaullah as part of this at all.

From a christian view not bahai and not mine.

Do not Christians believe Jesus was the spotless Mirror of God?

Mainstream christians believe jesus IS god.
I know some believe jesus is the father
Others believe jesus shares in god's divinity

All believe jesus is equal to his father some shape or form. Only jesus. No one else.

"The document called 1 Clement, a letter from the Roman congregation to that at Corinth uses the language of the biblical book of Hebrews to portray Jesus as the reflection of God's splendor, the "mirror" of "God's... transcendent face"

Christians say they get their teachings from Jesus. Jesus was a jew and got his teachings from the laws of his father (given by moses) not Rome. Maybe that's a Roman Catholic teaching, I don't know. The general consensus is that jesus was a jew and taught judaism and himself as a savior to the gentiles.

"Through Him let us look steadfastly unto the heights of the heavens; through Him we behold as in a mirror His faultless and most excellent

Why do you keep emphasising mirror? That does not change christian teachings. It also doesn't change that you need the sacraments in order to be devoted to the faith and call yourself christian because of it. You can't be bahai. You can't be muslim. You have to be christian. A follower of christ and christ only.

This is a christian point of view, not mine and not yours.

"and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."

Bahai can compare Bahaullah to jesus but that does not change christian scriptures and beliefs.

It is all bahai. Until you see it from a christian point of view, you won't get anywhere.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is ok, but Why would you feel, someone is trying to sell something?!

Any ways, to me it is quite clear.
Why did Jesus come to World, according to Scriptures?

Then Jesus said, "I have come into this world to judge it, so that those who are blind may see and so that those who see may become blind."


So, the work of Jesus was to cure the blind. Not to do any miracles:

But Jesus replied, "Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign; but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah.


So, if the Author of Bible wrote, no Miraculous sign will be given, why would then, they describe so many miracles?
I mean think about it. If the Writers of Bible, were trying to write myth about a person who has been doing so many Miracles, why then, they have written, Jesus said He would not do any Miracles? That would repudiate their nice story, doesn't it?

You think, the Authors of Bible wrote something to sell. They wanted to show, there was a Jesus who was doing Miracles. So, why they said, No Sign shall be given?

Cannot the Authors themselves answer that question? I feel they did:

He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables
so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"
Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?


So, how do you know, those other Miracles are not parables, and the Author is testing the reader?

Jesus said, " let the dead bury their dead".
The Author did not say, 'dead' is a parable for unbeliever and misguided. So, how do we know, when the blind was cured, 'blind' is not a parable? It is not like every time, it says, here is a parable, right?

The Bahais rely on Bahaullah. See, how He matches all the Prophecies? He said, He did not study, and did not have books, and did not go to school to learn the things He knew, and yet, the history, does not contradict His claim. The history confirms His claim. So, how Bahaullah knew the details so well, to convince others, or as you think, to sell? What was He after? Money? Power? Women? How would history answers these questions? Should we look into history for answers, or our fancy and imaginations?

That is hilarious. "I ain't buying it" That's symbolic language. You take things why too literal. You have to understand, if something I say doesn't make sense, it must have some esoteric, hidden meaning.

"So, how do you know, those other Miracles are not parables, and the Author is testing the reader?" So how many authors of the Bible are there? How many in the NT? None of them in the NT is the manifestation. Why is what they say even called the "Word of God"? It is only authoritative to Christians. And the early Christians had to weed out the books they didn't like. So why did they chose the ones they did? I'll bet you it was because it conveyed the message they thought was the truth.

And, what did they believe? They believed Jesus performed miracles... and spoke in parables... and used symbolic language. But the "authors" like Paul and Luke and John and all the rest, they were reporting what they thought were facts. They were not testing the reader. I can just imagine all the gospel writers coming up with the same resurrection story to "test" the reader. Now that's a miracle.

 

[Vaderecta]

Bahai can compare Bahaullah to jesus but that does not change christian scriptures and beliefs.

It is all bahai. Until you see it from a christian point of view, you won't get anywhere.

It is all Bahai? Is this an 1800 religion that somehow has figured out what all religions prior haven't? You might as well compare this to mormon or catholic belief. Many older religions exist that are now discarded but your particular belief is the one we need to focus on.

You've been tricked. It happens to the best of us. But once we know we've been tricked we don't keep pretending to be tricked. We pat them on the back and say good one and then figure out what it is we wanted to believe for and tell people that.

 

[CG Didymus]

It was explained in another post that there are Messages Direct from God and then there are Messages that are reflected from that source in One Way or Another. The Religions that received a direct message from God and still practiced have been mentioned. I also posted Links to Lists of what have been confirmed were other Messages directly and indirectly from God. Yes many of these Messages from Minor prophets or inspired People are still practiced.

It has also been said that we look for the Light no matter where it shines from.

I see what is Happening here is that only one part of the reply is being considered and the remainder of the thoughts given not considered in the next question asked. Do you see that in reverse?

Can it be considered, that why there appears to be conflict of the picture offered is that you Look out on the World through the Window of Saivite Hindu thought. A Baha'i attempts to look at the world by standing in the world and look from all directions.

Regards Tony

So now we have some religions "confirmed directly" and others "indirectly"? And then you say, "Yes many of these Messages from Minor prophets or inspired People are still practiced..."? Which post of yours has that link?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Were they better off with their tribal beliefs and society, or with their situation today?

Its a controversial question and always best to ask that of the Maoris themselves rather than having an outsider and person of European ancestry such as myself to answer the question. On the negative side we could take about loss of autonomy, land, introduction of disease, cultural assimilation, and cultural destruction. On the positive there has been access to the resources that come along with being colonised by the biggest empire on earth ever. Beyond that lets say that fools rush in, where angels dare to tread.

Not that their religion was perfect, but it held them together and kept order. But how can you get from many gods to one God?

Judeo-Christianity has a long history of associating with polytheistic cultures. I would imagine that many Maori recognised the Christian religion as better than their own, perhaps for the wrong reasons in some cases such as better technology and material resources (including weapons to assist with intertribal warfare).

I see a progression, but it's not like the Baha'i concept of "progressive" revelation. It's a more dominant culture that believes it's religion to be the only right one... telling the conquered people everything they believe in is false. And, I'm sure in most cases, the old ways were outlawed.

To be fair, there is the Ratana movement and a few others in Maoridom that have integrated traditional Maori beliefs with Christianity.

Rātana - Wikipedia