How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

That would be Baha'u'llah in His Laws. He gave Leave in Law, for peoples of the world to build the Temples;

"O people of the world! Build ye houses of worship throughout the lands in the name of Him Who is the Lord of all religions. Make them as perfect as is possible in the world of being, and adorn them with that which befitteth them, not with images and effigies. Then, with radiance and joy, celebrate therein the praise of your Lord, the Most Compassionate. Verily, by His remembrance the eye is cheered and the heart is filled with light. (The Kitab-i-Aqdas, pp. 29-30, para 31)

Regards Tony

So the obvious fact that a Hindu India gave safe haven to The Jewish people, various Christian sects, moderate Islam, Baha'i', and more is all due to Baha'u'llah, 200 years ago, not 5000 years ago.

The only reason there is a Baha'i' temple in India is because the Hindus are so incredibly tolerant.

Thus blind, 'all credit to Baha'u'llah thing simply doesn't give credit where credit is due.

Some Hindu temples in India are over 2000 years old, and many existed way before that. But it's all because of some modern day prophet?

 

[CG Didymus]

This is how Bahaullah explaining it:

"Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again.” Again He saith: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” The purport of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto “life” and “resurrection” and have entered into the “paradise” of the love of God. "



So, the man was not born of water and spirit, thus, he was born blind. We need to realize that the Scriptures uses the Terms, differently than how, we use those terms in the everyday conversation.
Thus, the bible has its own language. We need to learn its language, so, we may understand it. It is obvious, when Jesus was saying you must be born again of water, He does not mean they have to go into their Momma, and be born again. This is a different language. We need to understand what He means, from Scriptures, in other verses. In the same way, when the Scriptures says, the man was born blind, it is not talking about physical birth. These are spiritual reality, expressed in symbolic language. Look, we have to think, what is the purpose of the Author, of using these unusual ways of speaking.

Sorry, ain't buying it. It's one thing to say that when the gospel writer, in this case allegedly John, is allegedly quoting Jesus, then sure, the language is symbolic, allegorical, or whatever. But, when John is talking about them walking down the road and seeing a blind man, or a woman caught in adultery, or a person with leprosy and Jesus heals them or forgives them or whatever... it is the author describing an event.

For all I know, John is making it all up. The same with the other gospel writers. Maybe a few factual events. Maybe they embellished the story, but how can you say John was smart enough to be thinking, "Hey, this thing I'm writing is someday going to get added to the Bible. I better use "Scriptural" language." I don't think so. They were trying to report what they saw and heard to prove that Jesus was the Messiah.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There will be an answer, lol. There will be an answer. I've been in this debate long enough to know that.

This is information re the Messengers and Prophets of God - Prophets - Bahai9

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So the obvious fact that a Hindu India gave safe haven to The Jewish people, various Christian sects, moderate Islam, Baha'i', and more is all due to Baha'u'llah, 200 years ago, not 5000 years ago.

The only reason there is a Baha'i' temple in India is because the Hindus are so incredibly tolerant.

Thus blind, 'all credit to Baha'u'llah thing simply doesn't give credit where credit is due.

Some Hindu temples in India are over 2000 years old, and many existed way before that. But it's all because of some modern day prophet?

Yes we thank all Peoples that show the Love and Harmony of our one God and His Messengers and His Prophets.

All the Messengers are One, the Word we read is from them all. They are all connected. The Bible explains that they are all the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last the Beginning and the End. the Message is the same suited for the age it is given.

Yes they all tie into Baha'u'llah, Baha'u'llah is the Fulfillment of their Word and their Cause. Their Knowledge is timeless it is not of this world. They know the Beginning that has no beginning and they know the End that has no end.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sorry, ain't buying it. It's one thing to say that when the gospel writer, in this case allegedly John, is allegedly quoting Jesus, then sure, the language is symbolic, allegorical, or whatever. But, when John is talking about them walking down the road and seeing a blind man, or a woman caught in adultery, or a person with leprosy and Jesus heals them or forgives them or whatever... it is the author describing an event.

For all I know, John is making it all up. The same with the other gospel writers. Maybe a few factual events. Maybe they embellished the story, but how can you say John was smart enough to be thinking, "Hey, this thing I'm writing is someday going to get added to the Bible. I better use "Scriptural" language." I don't think so. They were trying to report what they saw and heard to prove that Jesus was the Messiah.

Consider it is never up for sale, it is always a gift

The Apostles were gifted by Christ great Spiritual Insight. They are very believable Spiritual Stories. Many of these stories repeated at the time of the Message of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

I was Blind and now I see, I was deaf and I now do Hear, I was flightless I now do fly are words I can offer you from my heart. They are gifts of the Spirit and the Bible is full of those Gifts.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'u'llah has said many Prophets have been sent by God, records do not remain of many. There is really only 9 World Religions still active today. Many traces of Older Faiths do remain. Abdul'baha has said;

"The proof of the validity of a Manifestation of God is the penetration and potency of His Word, the cultivation of heavenly attributes in the hearts and lives of His followers and the bestowal of divine education upon the world of humanity. This is absolute proof. The world is a school in which there must be Teachers of the Word of God. The evidence of the ability of these Teachers is efficient education of the graduating classes."

"...We see, therefore that the proofs applicable to one Prophet are equally applicable to another..." Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 402-411

Regards Tony

Hey Tony, I haven't studied these things deeply, but I hope you get what I'm trying to say. I don't believe that some ancient people had very good religions. Lots of superstition. Lots of sacrificing people and animals to their gods. So take the Greeks and their religion, true or false? Where did their beliefs come from. I'm just guessing, but I'd say they made them up. Why? To explain the world around them. They came up with elaborate stories of gods and god/men. Do any of these things have to be true? Not to me. Can they contain some truth in them? Sure. Did a specific religion of a people ever work perfectly? What is strange, I'll bet some of the tribal people kept their societies and culture pretty well together until they got invaded by others.

Were those religions filled with weird practices and superstition? I think so. But, it worked. Does a religion like Christianity have some weird and superstitious beliefs? Could be. A evil spirit being roaming around the Earth that will be cast into a lake of fire. A god/man rising from the dead. But lots of Christians believe it's real and it gives them hope. The religion gives them rules to live by, so it works for them. Is any of it absolutely true? Maybe, maybe not.

So you, as a Baha'i, do you believe some religions were just man-made myth? Since what kind of god would need or want human or animal sacrifices, are those things man-made conceptions? Did some religious stories and practices of tribal people come from their view of the natural world around them and how they relate to it?

 

[CG Didymus]

...All the Messengers are One, the Word we read is from them all. They are all connected. The Bible explains that they are all the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last the Beginning and the End. the Message is the same suited for the age it is given...Regards Tony

Could you clarify: Where does "The Bible explains that they are all the Alpha and the Omega"? So I need Bible quotes that alludes to Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha and Muhammad as being equal to Moses. And then NT quotes that make all of them equal to the Christian Jesus.

 

[CG Didymus]

Consider it is never up for sale, it is always a gift

The Apostles were gifted by Christ great Spiritual Insight. They are very believable Spiritual Stories. Many of these stories repeated at the time of the Message of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

I was Blind and now I see, I was deaf and I now do Hear, I was flightless I now do fly are words I can offer you from my heart. They are gifts of the Spirit and the Bible is full of those Gifts.

Regards Tony

Tony, I ain't buying the explanation that Jesus and his clan were walking down the road and saw a "spiritually" blind man and not a "physically" blind man. If you say the man was both, I'll buy that. But not that John was telling a story of a symbolically blind man. It makes the whole gospel a symbolic fairy tale, none of it really happened. I'd also buy that the whole thing is mixed with true events that were embellished to make Jesus into a miracle performing God/man.

 

[CG Didymus]

Diluting one's faith by adding new ones that are in direct contradiction to the previous ones is not a win-win, unless you think confusion is a win-win, and I don't believe you do. How can trying to add not believing in reincarnation, a prophet where there was no previous need for one, burial instead of cremation, be a win win. The poor chap would just be one confused person not knowing which way to turn, like some poor guy stuck between his Mommy and his wife. No matter who eh sides with, he loses.

Right on. What do they expect "Bible-believing" Christians to do? They've been forgiven and saved from their sins. Jesus conquered death by rising from the dead. They're going to heaven to be with their Lord. The devil has been defeated. Or, become a Baha'i and learn that all of that was wrong teachings?

Now really Baha'is, how would those Christians keep their old teachings? Other than reincarnation, what other things in your spiritual path are incompatible with Baha'i teachings?

 

[CG Didymus]

Well a person wouldn't become a Bahá'í unless he agreed with the Baha'i reasoning and explanations of these topics.

On cremation we reason that the physical body gradually formed and came into existence according to natural law and so should, according to natural law, decompose. That if it were meant for the human body to be cremated upon death then nature would've caused it to naturally ignite. Also, creating a persons remains, we are told doesn't mean forgiveness is guaranteed. Firgiveness depends on God.

With reincarnation we believe we are reincarnated into other worlds of God in spiritual or other forms just not born into an earthly physical body again. So reincarnated with the same personality into another body in another world of God. The body takes on a heavenly form made up of elements of that particular world of God. So we will remember our life here and retain our individuality. So Hindus say we return to this world and we say we go to another world. We are brought to account for our lives here so Justice is also involved.

People who don't believe in a Prophet have had, in life, similar experiences, though not identical. We all have a mother and father, a teacher, a doctor, a guru or priest -man is not completely independent but relies heavily on others so the idea of relying on a Prophet for advice is not that far removed from relying on a doctor for ones health or an architect to build a house except the Prophet's expertise lies in spiritual matters.

"We are brought to account for our lives here so Justice is also involved." There is so much variation in people's lives. Where does a person go if they died at birth? What about a bully that gets run over by a bus at 10? What about a teenage gang member that kills and finally gets killed? But, one of his follow gang members "finds" Jesus and gets saved. Then, what about the kid that is born into a Baha'i family but is only a nominal Baha'i?

What justice? If they were bad here, how are they going to act in the next world? If they are still bad do they get sent to a spiritual prison? Since most people are just "ordinary", where do they go? Some crowded spiritual world with boring people doing boring things? I need to know this 'cause, I don't think so, but God might be thinking that of me.

 

[CG Didymus]

We have an unusual history in that the British government that colonised New Zealand made a treaty with the local Maoris in 1840. Maori Culture was tribal so there were often conflicts between the locals. There were a few of the tribes that weren't too happy and rebelled, but the weaponry of the British was superior. With colonisation came the introduction of diseases such as measles and smallpox so Maori populations were decimated.

Many Maoris converted to Christianity but there are some movements such as Ratana that is a synthesis of indigenous Maori beliefs and Christianity.

We have quite a high proportion of Maori in New Zealand (over 16%) so there is a quite a lot of effort put into race relations.

There are actually no more full blooded Maoris due to mixing with the Europeans and there is a large degree of assimilation.

What were the Maori religious beliefs?

 

[CG Didymus]

There will be an answer, lol. There will be an answer. I've been in this debate long enough to know that.

Ahh, I finally got caught up from about 10 pages back. What an ordeal. Then I get to the end and it's all questions from me.

 

[loverofhumanity]

"We are brought to account for our lives here so Justice is also involved." There is so much variation in people's lives. Where does a person go if they died at birth? What about a bully that gets run over by a bus at 10? What about a teenage gang member that kills and finally gets killed? But, one of his follow gang members "finds" Jesus and gets saved. Then, what about the kid that is born into a Baha'i family but is only a nominal Baha'i?

What justice? If they were bad here, how are they going to act in the next world? If they are still bad do they get sent to a spiritual prison? Since most people are just "ordinary", where do they go? Some crowded spiritual world with boring people doing boring things? I need to know this 'cause, I don't think so, but God might be thinking that of me.

We are told by Baha'u'llah to bring ourselves to account each day as we will be brought to account for our deeds after we die. Things like babies born at death and such we are told that because they are innocent their blessings in the next world are very great.

Each individual case is judged on its merits by God. Baha'is don't belive in a geographic heaven. For instance we are not our body. We are connected to it and use it in this world but it is not us.so when we die we take on another form that is of the elements of that world. But we still remain ourselves.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hey Tony, I haven't studied these things deeply, but I hope you get what I'm trying to say. I don't believe that some ancient people had very good religions. Lots of superstition. Lots of sacrificing people and animals to their gods. So take the Greeks and their religion, true or false? Where did their beliefs come from. I'm just guessing, but I'd say they made them up. Why? To explain the world around them. They came up with elaborate stories of gods and god/men. Do any of these things have to be true? Not to me. Can they contain some truth in them? Sure. Did a specific religion of a people ever work perfectly? What is strange, I'll bet some of the tribal people kept their societies and culture pretty well together until they got invaded by others.

You have the right thoughts there, and no not all believed is Truth, in fact most of it is now from mans ideas and Not Gods.

This is why Baha'u'llah explains Gods Messages are Progressive and Renewed. this is one Passage that reflects upon those observations;

"...God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same 150 truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand. Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him...." Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 149-150

Were those religions filled with weird practices and superstition? I think so. But, it worked. Does a religion like Christianity have some weird and superstitious beliefs? Could be. A evil spirit being roaming around the Earth that will be cast into a lake of fire. A god/man rising from the dead. But lots of Christians believe it's real and it gives them hope. The religion gives them rules to live by, so it works for them. Is any of it absolutely true? Maybe, maybe not.

All the Books of God are for Spiritual Guidance, they do contain some Material Laws that are suited for the age. An example is Christ Rising from the Dead, Abdul'Baha has given a sound explanation of this Biblical story. As Christ says in the Bible, it is the Spirit that has Life the flesh amounts to not a thing. You may wish to read explanations of this event? - Jesus Christ, Resurrection of

So you, as a Baha'i, do you believe some religions were just man-made myth? Since what kind of god would need or want human or animal sacrifices, are those things man-made conceptions? Did some religious stories and practices of tribal people come from their view of the natural world around them and how they relate to it?

Yes many are man made religions. But as man made we are created in Gods Image and thus Gods Word as given by the messengers is part of our being. As such if the Motivation is the Love of God then this advice has also been given

"...Man must be a lover of the light no matter from what day-spring it may appear. He must be a lover of the rose no matter in what soil it may be growing. He must be a seeker of the truth no matter from what source it come. Attachment to the lantern is not loving the light. Attachment to the earth is not befitting but enjoyment of the rose which develops from the soil is worthy. Devotion to the tree is profitless but partaking of the fruit is beneficial. Luscious fruits no matter upon what tree they grow or where they may be found must be enjoyed. The word of truth no matter which tongue utters it must be sanctioned. Absolute verities no matter in what book they be recorded must be accepted. If we harbor prejudice it will be the cause of deprivation and ignorance. The strife between religions, nations and races arises from misunderstanding. If we investigate the religions to discover the principles underlying their foundations we will find they agree, for the fundamental reality of them is one and not multiple. By this means the religionists of the world will reach their point of unity and reconciliation. They will ascertain the truth that the purpose of religion is the acquisition of praiseworthy virtues, betterment of morals, spiritual development of mankind, the real life and divine bestowals...."

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Could you clarify: Where does "The Bible explains that they are all the Alpha and the Omega"? So I need Bible quotes that alludes to Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha and Muhammad as being equal to Moses. And then NT quotes that make all of them equal to the Christian Jesus.

There are a couple of Places in Revelation. The Deeper Understanding of these passages explained by Baha'u'llah

Revelation 22:12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each person according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

These passages are taking about Christs Return, Christ was the First Prophet and Christ will be the Last.

We do know the 'First' from the time of Adam was not Called Christ and We know the 'Last', who was Baha'u'llah, was not Called Christ. Thus we can know by Baha'u'llah's Writings and from that passage, that all Gods Messengers in between, though not Called Christ, were indeed the same Spirit.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, I ain't buying the explanation that Jesus and his clan were walking down the road and saw a "spiritually" blind man and not a "physically" blind man. If you say the man was both, I'll buy that. But not that John was telling a story of a symbolically blind man. It makes the whole gospel a symbolic fairy tale, none of it really happened. I'd also buy that the whole thing is mixed with true events that were embellished to make Jesus into a miracle performing God/man.

This is an essential subject that needs to be understood to understand the Holy Books, thus best I give you the talk as to why;

OUTWARD FORMS AND SYMBOLS MUST BE USED TO CONVEY INTELLECTUAL CONCEPTIONS - Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 83-86

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

So violent Islam is basically the same as peaceful faiths?

If none are superiour, why does it matter which one you are. If that were the case, a person could just jump around at will, being an adherent of Baha'i', Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, all simultaneously. Hmmm.. So there has to be some better explanation.

It's the social and some spiritual,teachings that each subsequent religion brings that is the reason we should accept each as they are revealed.

For instance. Jesus did not teach about community but primarily individual behaviour. Muhammad however taught Ummah, that is He brought about the National State amongst the Arabs giving them social laws and a constitution and teachings how to live together as a nation.

Baha'u'llah later came along, when the time was right, and taught about how to get along as a world which includes loving your country and each individual. So each was a social progressive step up from the previous Faith. As times changed and man matured somekaws also were abolished according to the times. So Baha'u'llah has abolished things like stoning, holy war, cutting off of hands and so on as we have corrective facilities but in past ages in the desert there were no prisons or courts of law or police and the innocent had to be protected.

So say today, when I am just believing in a previous religion. I will be using Teachings meant for maybe 1400 years ago. So today many Muslim countries still stone people. But because they do not accept the new Teachings from God they live according to laws meant for a thousand years ago and most humanity does not agree. Then today it is an international world yet none of the past religions taught about how to address international problems because there was no such thing as one world before. Now Baha'u'llah has come and taught that we need things like a world Parliament, a world court, a new system based on human rights and equality and that all the religions and people should see each other as equals.

So say in the future we make contact with beings from other planets and universes. The Teachings of Baha'u'llah, which were for world cooperation and world solidarity will not be enough.

So Baha'u'llah expanded on some spiritual laws. For instance He said that previously love of ones country was sufficient but now true Faith is only acceptable when we love all mankind unconditionally. Now loving all humanity includes loving ones country but it is an extension from the strait jacket of nationalism. A broader loyalty to humanity not just our Faith or our race and nationality. Humanity is finding this difficult to do so far.

Islam does not teach violence. It is misguided people who use the name of Islam and cherry pick from the Quran to commit atrocities. I am firmly convinced of this. And sometimes the wars of the Arabs have been purely politically motivated but they have used religion to rally the people misusing it for political,purposes.

If one goes deeply into these topics I believe e real truth will reveal,itself and it is not what it seems on the surface. People blindly follow religious leaders into wars when they have their own mind to question but they don't. That is their fault not the Quran or Muhammad's. If a Mulla says for Muslims to kill Hindus and the Quran forbids attacking innocent people and the Muslim doesn't check for himself what the Quran says then he is wrong not the Quran.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Right on. What do they expect "Bible-believing" Christians to do? They've been forgiven and saved from their sins. Jesus conquered death by rising from the dead. They're going to heaven to be with their Lord. The devil has been defeated. Or, become a Baha'i and learn that all of that was wrong teachings?

Now really Baha'is, how would those Christians keep their old teachings? Other than reincarnation, what other things in your spiritual path are incompatible with Baha'i teachings?

Yes this is so One only needs a slight change in "Frame of Reference" on each of the subjects that have become the doctrines of Christianity.

Forgiveness of Sins now fully explained in great detail in many ways.

Resurrection now fully explained in many ways and in great detail.

Evil now fully explained in many ways in great detail.

Thus one does not give up but comes to a fuller knowledge and Love of Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

What were the Maori religious beliefs?

It is essentially a polytheistic belief system with a father god, mother earth, and various other gods. There is a great deal of mythology that has been passed down through oral tradition as the Maori did not read or write. There is a world view that sees man as having a spirit (wairua) and there being certain sacred laws that can not be breached (tapu).

Māori religion - Wikipedia

Traditional Māori religion – ngā karakia a te Māori – Te Ara Encyclopedia of New Zealand

 

[Dawnofhope]

Our First Nations people live in slums, and are also proportionately high in prisons. It's sad. As for India, we still dealing with much greater populations. 300 million versus less than a million, I suppose.

I suspect its a similar story wherever colonisation has happened. Its important to recognise that one of the main motivating factors has been economic exploitation. Conversion of locals to the one true faith was probably a secondary concern.

Certainly they didn't understand Hinduism. Still don't. As I've mentioned many times the jump across the paradigm difference is immense. Many think they do, but they don't. Just via the Abrahamic lens. That's not true understanding.

Thank you for setting the record straight. I didn't know much about Hinduism before coming onto RF and still don't but its been really helpful to put aside the Abrahamic paradigm and recalibrate. I think the thread started by @Mandi was a result of such a misunderstanding.

The British didn't blindside India like the did to indigenous peoples of Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. India had already survived an attempted genocide by Islam.

Humanity's history has been brutal. How does Hinduism as a diverse faith community work towards promoting peace in the world?