Is God really THE god?

[Segev Moran]

TRUTH... I have to say that truth is the greatest source of knowing which God and why the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the only God.

Define what you mean by TRUTH here?

If you look at the Jews today and throughout History you see the promise of God to Abraham a reality.

You mean geography wise?

More descendants that you can count and through the Jews all nations of the earth have been blessed.

I Actually know too many who haven't (been blessed).
Well.. it depends what you mean by "blessed"

Every promise God made he kept.

Like?

By obeying his words they were prosperous and this caused jealousy and fear amongst
nations that they might take over the countries where they were prosperous.

Yet Israel had so many wars during it's short existence period. I doubt they all were all due to fear of Jews?

Speaking on a personal note I have to say that I believe in the ONE God who is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob because his promises are still shown to be true everywhere in
the world today. The only God who made himself known to his creation and remained there with them and all the world, ever since.

What do you mean by shown everywhere?

 

[Segev Moran]

First of all, God can not possibly be the source of the OT once you note all the illogical, nonsense in it. If you still have not noticed the nonsense, you can look it up here: 12 Craziest, Most Awful Things God Did in the Old Testament

I Believe I noted on my thread: "Lets assume the bible is true"
And there is much more to that book than you believe. (context wise)

As for the NT, it written by humans (each book has a human author - Mark, Matthew, Luke, John, Paul etc) - so God is not the source of the NT either.

Lets assume it is...

However, in the NT we have the words of Jesus (who does not claim to be God, just his Son) telling us about God, the Father. Nowhere does Jesus say that God, the Father is the only God.

Ok. And even if he did.. he is capable of lying.

So the question about believing the NT

I Did not ask such a question.

, is really whether you can trust the words of Jesus or not. I personally do trust the words of Jesus, but I don't think the Father that Jesus talks about is the ONLY God as Jesus never said such a thing. God, the Father that Jesus talks about in the NT is probably just the God of the Earth.

So you believe there is more than one God? or are Agnostic about the subject?.

 

[Segev Moran]

In this time based causal universe, the only way to truly know someone whether it is God or anyone is through their actions. Our actions speak not only to who we are but tells what we know and what we need to learn. Verbal communication isn't needed.

Sometimes.

Our understanding of others is also based on ourselves.

Can you elaborate on that?

People see what they want to see often judging in favor of what they want things to be.

I think the more secular and skeptic we become, this statement represents a wrong assumption.

Everybody wants to rule the world is an important factor.

disagreed. Most people I hang with probably want to rule their own lives, but only a few would really want to "rule the world".

Since there are multiple levels of intelligence in the universe,

Please explain?

lack of understanding of another's actions can lead to the wrong conclusions thus leading one away from the real truth.

I guess we can all relate to that

Yes, there are many curves in the road. On the other hand, as we grow in learning and intelligence, the picture will change. Our eyes will become open to that which we were blind to before. Our view, judgment and understanding of another can change dramatically through intelligence.

I Agree. I think they change dramatically countless of times.

Perhaps, it's all a test of intelligence. Who can see? Who wants to see? Who needs to see? How far can one advance in growth, learning, and knowledge in a lifetime? As I look at the Earth and back through the past history, Brains tend to win in the end over the long haul. Perhaps, we should all be working harder at becoming smarter rather than concentrating so much energy on feeling good. With intelligence comes easier, the feeling good will always be waiting there after we arrive.[/QUOTE]
So is there only One god?

 

[Segev Moran]

OK. I don't believe it.

Leshon Hakodesh - Wikipedia

There isn't any way to know that.

Agreed.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think you might be under estimating some people

If talking about the abrahamic god, no. As long as their is a "book" it's pretty much as simple as that. I can't speak for Pagan and Hindu gods though. I mean, I believe in spirits but they aren't dependant on my experiences and anything or person for them to exist. That's like saying a tree needs me to be here for it to exist.

Religions, by their nature, is wrapped around culture, tradition, and language. So that defines the god(s) one believes in. When you take all of that away, what is a god?

 

[soulsurvivor]

I Believe I noted on my thread: "Lets assume the bible is true"
And there is much more to that book than you believe. (context wise)

Lets assume it is...

That is my point. It is impossible to believe or assume that the OT is true because of this:
12 Craziest, Most Awful Things God Did in the Old Testament

Ok. And even if he did.. he is capable of lying.

I don't believe Jesus is capable of lying

I Did not ask such a question.

OK then, you already believe Jesus is not lying and that the NT is the truth

So you believe there is more than one God? or are Agnostic about the subject?.

I definitely believe there is more than one God. But they are all related. So the God of Earth is part of the God of the Solar System and the God of the solar system is part of the God of the Galaxy and so on - but they are all individuals in themselves. The Father Jesus talked about is the God of Earth.

 

[dianaiad]

How can you know?

Lets say the bible (OT, NT or whatever depiction of Mono-God there is) is true. that indeed these are the words of the one we call God.
Everything we know about God is based on God itself.

Maybe God is not really THE god? rather on of other gods?
Maybe he is actually an evil God and only pretends to be good?

What is one's source of knowing God without any scripture or information that doesn't come from the Entity itself?

My own personal opinion is that there is only one God. Doesn't much matter what all these different beliefs are about Him, there's still only One.

None of us are all right about Him.
None of us are all wrong.

Of course I believe that my own belief system has the most truth about Him: if I didn't, I'd go find the one that did, join it and THEN I'd believe that my religion had the most truth about Him.

Whatever you want to speculate is just that: speculation.

But as for your speculation about whether God is really evil only pretending to be good? ....well...I once heard a quote...tried finding it just now but could not. Perhaps one of you will know where it came from?

It was something about how, if the Devil ever found himself in charge of heaven, he'd have to act like God and 'be good?"

Something like that.

 

[EtuMalku]

nope

Then there isn't any other evidencing of a God other than using scripture.

 

[arthra]

How can you know?
Lets say the bible (OT, NT or whatever depiction of Mono-God there is) is true. that indeed these are the words of the one we call God.
Everything we know about God is based on God itself.
Maybe God is not really THE god? rather on of other gods?
Maybe he is actually an evil God and only pretends to be good?
What is one's source of knowing God without any scripture or information that doesn't come from the Entity itself?

Well a couple of things I'd recommend

one is exposing your self to a variety of Holy Books and scriptures and allow the variety of cultures to sink in ..

Along with that is to understand better the cultural context of these Writings

Study the historical records as well as what's described in the scriptures..

If you sincerely study the Holy Books.. understanding the cultural context and apprising yourself of the history of these stories and records I think you'll better appreciate how great advances have been made in human history in spiritual terms...

Here are few suggestions..

Read The Vedic Experience by Raimundo Panikkar

Read Leo Tolstoy's The Gospel in Brief

George Lamsa's books on the Bible... Light on the Gospel.. Light on the Old Testament

Read a copy of the Qur'an translated by Wahiduddin:

Tanzil - Quran Navigator | القرآن الكريم

Finally

Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era by Esslemont

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era

 

[Kartari]

Hi Segev,

How can you know?

We can't know. One can only believe, as far as I can tell.

Lets say the bible (OT, NT or whatever depiction of Mono-God there is) is true. that indeed these are the words of the one we call God.
Everything we know about God is based on God itself.

Maybe God is not really THE god? rather on of other gods?
Maybe he is actually an evil God and only pretends to be good?

What is one's source of knowing God without any scripture or information that doesn't come from the Entity itself?

All of your alternate explanations (and more) are equally plausible as far as we can tell.

As a fellow atheist though, I see that the universe as we know it works precisely as if no gods or a God existed. If one of these God concepts is real, it is not at all apparent to humanity as far as I can tell.

 

[RESOLUTION]

I must have missed this evidence . . . what evidence?

You have to widen your search. Should you really be discussing issues you have not learned about?
The truth is that you do not want to know because otherwise you would have seen the evidence surrounding you of a God who did what he said he would.
Hence you cannot play games or claim something to be so, if you never knew anything in the first instance.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Denial is not a river in Egypt that is De Nile.

I noted a few poster prefer to ignore obvious truths in order to remain in their comfort zone when searching for truth.
What they really mean is they are searching for truth to support their own theories or beliefs.
They are not looking for the TRUTH.

Segev Moran

RESOLUTION said: ↑
TRUTH... I have to say that truth is the greatest source of knowing which God and why the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
the only God.

Define what you mean by TRUTH here?

If, you had studied the history of God, Abraham and the Jews it would be self-explanatory.
Do you not think if you discuss the question " Is God really THE god?" You should have studied the subject for yourself
and know which God you are discussing? If we are talking about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob then that is because
there is no other in any religion which has actually had their words become evident in the world when they promise
something to a human. I am not sure why you feel qualified to question 'is God really THE god?' if you don't anything
about the God in question. Elementary why I wrote what I wrote to those in possession of the facts.

Segev Moran

RESOLUTION said:
If you look at the Jews today and throughout History you see the promise of God to Abraham a reality.

You mean geography wise?

How do you hope to debate a subject you do not know the basics about?
God promised Abraham many descendants and as we see there they are all over the world and still here.
It is basics.

Segev Moran

RESOLUTION said:
More descendants that you can count and through the Jews all nations of the earth have been blessed.

I Actually know too many who haven't (been blessed)
Well.. it depends what you mean by "blessed"

Well! when you have studied the OT especially the Torah you will know.

Segev Moran

RESOLUTION said:
Every promise God made he kept.

Like?

They are still here, the Jews that is, aren't they?

Segev Moran

RESOLUTION said:
By obeying his words they were prosperous and this caused jealousy and fear amongst
nations that they might take over the countries where they were prosperous.

Yet Israel had so many wars during it's short existence period. I doubt they all were all due to fear of Jews?

Israel still exists... do you know nothing about Jacob being called Israel or his 12 sons descendants being the tribes of
Israel.

King James Bible
And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel
shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
Being Gods people is not about a place or it's name or land given to them by YHWH.
Israel is a nation of people the decendants of Jacob whose name was changed to Israel. The twelve tribes of 'ISRAEL'
the 12 sons of Israel (Jacob).

Segev Moran

RESOLUTION said:
Speaking on a personal note I have to say that I believe in the ONE God who is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
because his promises are still shown to be true everywhere in
the world today. The only God who made himself known to his creation and remained there with them and all the world,
ever since.

What do you mean by shown everywhere?

Isn't it obvious?

 

[EtuMalku]

Well a couple of things I'd recommend

one is exposing your self to a variety of Holy Books and scriptures and allow the variety of cultures to sink in ..

Along with that is to understand better the cultural context of these Writings

Study the historical records as well as what's described in the scriptures..

If you sincerely study the Holy Books.. understanding the cultural context and apprising yourself of the history of these stories and records I think you'll better appreciate how great advances have been made in human history in spiritual terms...

Here are few suggestions..

Read The Vedic Experience by Raimundo Panikkar

Read Leo Tolstoy's The Gospel in Brief

George Lamsa's books on the Bible... Light on the Gospel.. Light on the Old Testament

Read a copy of the Qur'an translated by Wahiduddin:

Tanzil - Quran Navigator | القرآن الكريم

Finally

Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era by Esslemont

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era

Does anyone even read the OP?

 

[ChristineM]

I will exclude Hinduism which has 320 millions of gods.

I will exclude personal gods, which over time have numbered billions.

In recorded history, man has worshipped over 4200 deities, approximately 3700 of them were/are said to be omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent one gods. One thing for sure, only one at the very most can be right.

And every single worshipper believes their god to be the God.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

How can you know?

Lets say the bible (OT, NT or whatever depiction of Mono-God there is) is true. that indeed these are the words of the one we call God.
Everything we know about God is based on God itself.

Maybe God is not really THE god? rather on of other gods?
Maybe he is actually an evil God and only pretends to be good?

What is one's source of knowing God without any scripture or information that doesn't come from the Entity itself?

God is the God of the Universe.
This world, in terms of the rest of the universe, is a "johnny come lately"
At best we only have a very ill defined view of God.
We have come to these views through our predecessors reflections about creation and about how they thought we came to be.
Most of these ideas were formed many of our generations ago by our primitive forebears, and have been embellished, by the thoughts and rationalisations of all those that followed.

Some religions have developed quite detailed and complex notions on the nature and purpose of God.
Others have struggled to give any definitive or tangible description of God at all.

Everything we have formulated about God is based on legend and speculation.

This does not mean that God has been invented by us, and that he does not exist. But rather that we have no Idea of what he is, what he does, what his intentions are, or even whether he has any actual interest in us whatsoever.

It is certain that not all of our religions can be right , nor even certain that any of them are.
We are seeing through a very dark glass. and looking with hope, more than expectation of finding any answers.
There is little to be found by looking back at the primitive foundations of our religions. They were more in the dark than we are, but they had perhaps more vivid imaginations and therefor stronger beliefs.
We can only live with the hope that we will find a fuller understanding of God in the future.

In the meantime there is no point at all in inventing and selecting attributes that we like, and associating them with God.
There is though, very good and practical reasons, to suppose that we should do every thing in our power to protect our world, and to do everything we can, that is in the best interests of all its flora and fauna, including ourselves, or mankind will have no future.

 

[Segev Moran]

That is my point. It is impossible to believe or assume that the OT is true because of this:
12 Craziest, Most Awful Things God Did in the Old Testament

how doest that make it impossible? It makes it impossible to think God is a good entity, maybe... but still doesn't contradict its existence based on the bible.
[/QUOTE]
I don't believe Jesus is capable of lying

Why?

I definitely believe there is more than one God. But they are all related. So the God of Earth is part of the God of the Solar System and the God of the solar system is part of the God of the Galaxy and so on - but they are all individuals in themselves. The Father Jesus talked about is the God of Earth.

In the bible, God is depicted as the God of everything.
What makes you believe there is a separate God for the solar system?

 

[Segev Moran]

My own personal opinion is that there is only one God. Doesn't much matter what all these different beliefs are about Him, there's still only One.

None of us are all right about Him.
None of us are all wrong.

Of course I believe that my own belief system has the most truth about Him: if I didn't, I'd go find the one that did, join it and THEN I'd believe that my religion had the most truth about Him.

Whatever you want to speculate is just that: speculation.

But as for your speculation about whether God is really evil only pretending to be good? ....well...I once heard a quote...tried finding it just now but could not. Perhaps one of you will know where it came from?

It was something about how, if the Devil ever found himself in charge of heaven, he'd have to act like God and 'be good?"

Something like that.

Interesting... I am not familiar with such a verse.

 

[Segev Moran]

Then there isn't any other evidencing of a God other than using scripture.

Yeah, At least as far as I know.
That's the reason for this thread

 

[Segev Moran]

Well a couple of things I'd recommend

one is exposing your self to a variety of Holy Books and scriptures and allow the variety of cultures to sink in ..

Along with that is to understand better the cultural context of these Writings

Study the historical records as well as what's described in the scriptures..

If you sincerely study the Holy Books.. understanding the cultural context and apprising yourself of the history of these stories and records I think you'll better appreciate how great advances have been made in human history in spiritual terms...

Here are few suggestions..

Read The Vedic Experience by Raimundo Panikkar

Read Leo Tolstoy's The Gospel in Brief

George Lamsa's books on the Bible... Light on the Gospel.. Light on the Old Testament

Read a copy of the Qur'an translated by Wahiduddin:

Tanzil - Quran Navigator | القرآن الكريم

Finally

Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era by Esslemont

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era

thanks. Will probably do.
But will this provide a hint about the validity of God's words?

 

[Segev Moran]

Hi Segev,



We can't know. One can only believe, as far as I can tell.



All of your alternate explanations (and more) are equally plausible as far as we can tell.

As a fellow atheist though, I see that the universe as we know it works precisely as if no gods or a God existed. If one of these God concepts is real, it is not at all apparent to humanity as far as I can tell.

We are in agreement.
This post was mostly intended for people who hold the claim that God is one, God is good, God is moral etc...
I am trying to understand where this assurance that God is good etc comes from.