If Jesus is God why doesn't the Bible say so?

[lostwanderingsoul]

Interesting that a Muslim Islamic Surfist tries to explain Christianity to Christians.

 

[SethZaddik]

Interesting that a Muslim Islamic Surfist tries to explain Christianity to Christians.

I am just a Muslim, Sufism is something I am drawn to, but I don't have any official ties with any sects, just my Mosque.

I am not "A Muslim Islamic Surfist" that is an unnecessary jumble of words.

Muslim will be just fine.

And thank you for the compliment, it is interesting. But I am not "trying" to, I AM explaining Christianity, not just to Christians but everyone.

I was one until 1/1/16 and have the knowledge necessary to do so, being a Muslim is not a hindrance.

 

[SethZaddik]

Interesting that a Muslim Islamic Surfist tries to explain Christianity to Christians.

It is interesting you think it is interesting that a "Muslim 'tries' explaining" what he (me) DID explain properly and without error (other than spelling).

It appears you think belonging to one religion makes it preposterous to discuss another religion, that it is a hindrance to one's ability to learn about another religion.

I would guess you have a closed mind and see it would be hard for YOU to do.

I can seperate my beliefs from a discussion that doesn't involve them very easily.

And I don't say things if I don't know them to be true. I am not perfect but I am very thorough and careful and study more than two religions.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Your own description says Muslim Islamic Surfism. So if that is not correct maybe you should change it. And yes, YOU ARE explaining Christianity but in a way many Christians may not agree with. The Father and the Son both together make up God. Any other explanation is false.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

People who accuse others of having a closed mind usually do not have much proof of their position and so must resort to name calling to try to sound like they know something.

 

[SethZaddik]

Your own description says Muslim Islamic Surfism. So if that is not correct maybe you should change it. And yes, YOU ARE explaining Christianity but in a way many Christians may not agree with. The Father and the Son both together make up God. Any other explanation is false.

Interesting that a Muslim Islamic Surfist tries to explain Christianity to Christians.

I

I don't care what I haphazardly put as my description, I never see it and don't care at all.

Me telling you "Muslim will do" should be enough. I had to fill that out for some reason and didn't put any thought into it other than what it looked like they wanted to know or maybe they had categories to select from, I honestly don't remember and it was yesterday, that's how little I care about my titular designation.


I am a Muslim, plain and simple. I also consider myself a Gnostic, a certain kind as there are many. My interests are religous Knowledge, Wisdom and Righteousness.

I certainly can call myself Sufi, but I usually never do unless asked and prefer Muslim so as not to alienate myself from other Muslims in any way.

 

[SethZaddik]

Your own description says Muslim Islamic Surfism. So if that is not correct maybe you should change it. And yes, YOU ARE explaining Christianity but in a way many Christians may not agree with. The Father and the Son both together make up God. Any other explanation is false.

My description certainly doesn't say "Surfism" which makes twice you have spelled Sufism that way. Heh.

Islamic Sufism is a DIR, I didn't name it just joined it and liked the term, borrowed it. I said, which should be enough regardless of my profile that I pay little attention to, less than you,...that I prefer Muslim.

I don't like to make sub distinctions when I practice Islam, am a Muslim and don't feel better than other groups with names to distinguish them from the greater religion and as an Order within, I don't belong to any, Sufism is something I am interested in but not so you can call me, "Muslim Islamic SuRfism" twice when I told you the first time Muslim was fine.

You only came to comment on the peculiarity of a Muslim knowing the Bible and explaining it to Christians, even if just to be a wise guy and claiming I only "tried" to explain when I actually did.

You not realizing that is on you but you obviously have nothing to say about specifics regarding the topic at hand.

Just pointless chatter.

 

[pearl]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word(Logos), and the Word was with God (Tontheos) and the Word was God (theos, which means Divine or A god, NOT God).

The crucial Greek words of the second and third lines are
kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en o logos. The debate on the third line centers on the fact that theos is used without an article. Clearly, in the second line ho theos refers to God the Father, but in predicating theos without the article ho of the Word in the third line is the author trying to suggest that the Word is somewhat less than the Father?

There are texts where the use of God for Jesus is dubious;
Gal 2:20, Acts 20:28, Jn 1:18.
Further passages where obscurity arises from syntax;
Col2:2, 2Th 1:12, Tit 2:13, IJn 5:20, Rom 9:5, 2Pt 1:1.

Texts where Jesus is clearly called God;
Heb 1:8-9, Jn 1:1, Jn 20:28.

Its important to realize a developing faith in Christ. Jesus is never called God in the Synoptic Gospels and the passage in Mark seems to preclude the possibility that Jesus used the title of himself. There is little or no reason to think that Jesus was called God in the earliest layers of NT tradition. Dating NT times from 30 to 100, the use of God for Jesus belongs to the second half of the period. Thus the possibility calling Jesus God is of Hellenistic thought to Christian theology since the lack of evidence that Jesus was called God in the Jerusalem or Palestinian communities of the1st two decades of Christianity.
One explanation for the developing of the title God for Jesus, that in the earliest stage of Christianity the OT heritage dominated the use of the title God, God was a title too narrow to be applied to Jesus, to the God to whom he prayed. Possible in the 50's and 60's, in developing Christian thought "God" was understood in a broader term. Another explanation, that the usage of calling Jesus God was a liturgical usage and had its origin in the worship and prayers of the Christian community. The Prologue of John was originally a hymn.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Someone who is haphazard in his description of himself may also be haphazard in his proof of things he thinks he knows about.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

Often it is taken for granted that Jesus (p) is God. 2,000 years of tradition has taken precedent over the actual words of the Bible and the Word himself.

I am going to post the verses used to "prove" Jesus (p) is God, show how they do the exact opposite and thus prove with the evidence used pro Jesus being God it actually proves the opposite. It is not at all difficult.

Then I will post the verses that directly contradict the theory that Jesus is equal to God, and if he is not equal he is not God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word(Logos), and the Word was with God (Tontheos) and the Word was God (theos, which means Divine or A god, NOT God).

This is obviously not saying that Jesus is God in the original Koine Greek, it is saying that God's Word is Divine, borrowing from Platonic/Philonic philosophy (Logos) for a Hellenistic audience.

14: And the Word became flesh and lived amongst us.

Jesus was created BY the Word of God (virgin birth), as such he is CALLED the Word, even in Islam. Also because he was GIVEN authority to speak FOR God and clarify the Torah, which had been corrupted by tradition.

It is interesting that John is the only book that is used of all Gospels as an offer of proof, I have seen people TRY using the other 3 but it is not worthy of refutation being so ridiculous. Feel free to offer evidence to the contrary.

John 8:58

" Truly I tell you, before Abraham was, I am."

Because God says to Moses "I am that I am" it is ASSUMED Jesus means to say "I AM I am" but he doesn't say that AT ALL.

Punctuation was non existent, it could just as easily be "Before Abraham, was I am (God)."

But I will give the benefit of the doubt, besides, Muslims actually do believe in the preexistence of Jesus.

Which is ALL he was saying, before Abraham was, I am(prexistent, immortal, not God though).

John 10:30

"I and my Father are one."

Out of context I can see why people misinterpret this verse. Let's see what Jesus says right after this when he is about to be stoned:

"I have shown you many good works FROM THE FATHER."

His Father, our Father, the Father. Clearly Jesus is not saying he himself is God THE FATHER, and that his good works are FROM the Father and not of his doing alone.

Which is why he says, 10:29 "What my Father has GIVEN me is greater than all else, and no one (not even Jesus) can snatch it out of the Father's hand. THE Father and I are one."

A metaphor for a united will. God's will is Jesus will, not visa versa.

John 21:25 Judah Thomas exclaims excitedly:

"My lord and my God!"

Perhaps the most dishonest of "proofs" used to try supporting the Nicene Creed, Thomas, here an Apostle is in doubt that Jesus has ressurected until he touches him, odd scene because Mary Magdalene was not allowed to touch him because he had "not yet Ascended."

Nevertheless, Thomas didn't call Jesus "My lord AND my God." Despite Lord being commonly translated from YHVH, YHVH doesn't mean Lord and humans are called lord in the Bible all the time, by Hebrews. God is YHVH-Elohim or El Shaddai, El Elyon, etc.

Maybe he is calling Jesus his lord, but it is far from obvious or clear. He definitely is not calling him Elohim/God though, as he knows he is not God, Jesus talks ABOUT God but never says he IS God and neither does Thomas. "My God!" is an understandable response to seeing a dead man (reportedly, only Peter actually saw the crucifixion, little known fact that it is he denies Jesus because he is "stalking" the Messiah and while doing so is asked repeatedly if he is one of his disciples).

Now the proof that Jesus is not God or equal.

Mt. 24:36
"But about that day and hour no one knows, not angels in Heaven, nor the son, but ONLY the Father."

This destroys the theory of equality between God and Jesus

Mt. 26:39 "My Father, if possible, let this cup pass from me....Yet not what I want but what you want."

Jesus is asking if it is possible and His will, let him out of this situation he doesn't want to be in, but will nevertheless go through with it if GOD wills it so. It is clear who is the Power, God.

Mark 10:18
"Why do you call me good? No one is good but God ALONE."

That is an outright denial that Jesus is God in the flesh. If God alone, not Jesus the Messiah, is good and Jesus rebuked someone who called him good on that account, denying being good even, he can't possibly be God. Because God IS good, ALONE, not Jesus (who is obviously good, but he is making a point, specifically, save the praises for the One Who deserves them, God).

I feel I have proven my point and will leave you with the knowledge that John 5:19,29, 30; 14:28 & 17:21-23 also prove it if you want to look them up. I just don't want this to be too long.

Peace be upon Jesus and the 12 Apostles.

Peace be with you all/Salaam.

No there are plenty of verses that say He is God.
One point the only time he begins to even be referenced as an animal or a son is with John.
Any reference that he was given or stated different is counter in the whole book.
Even down to exactly what type of spirit you deal with.
Even logos itself. For He countered that the word too within.
Caligula: I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am
calligraphy
Which in ancient types it was used to brainwash make slaves and tip up families. To gain self even if they don't want to, but by design that wouldn't leave wholes in people hearts unfortunately do to evolution; you can point out where it has.
For example humans are the only ones who really look in the mirror at THEMSELVES. They also become obsessed with what God might look like if they heard of monotheism many times they still had one ruler or a few. Humans are the only ones to look to the sky and perceive it, thus knowing this they used it in brainwashing that is even far from logical or emotional such as the worship of death and hell. Those that they can pretend that they have the ability; can have spies and angels. Also still notice that for whatever reason satan and hell are not thrown out until revelation but they are supposedly present in the new testament. Like why? Not really an operation.
Now if you say to a human what kind of animal are you? They probably would laugh and pick one. But if you do some hard core mental heart felt anguish; severe enough you can convince them they are animals, you can use drugs to pacify or cause aggression and give them inculcations. Now robotics. Anthropology. Or even mix them or do crazy doctor stuff. Or give them tools, but while some where thinking about making things useful others wanted use of them thus sometimes you have Job. Or another man with no last name or stated location, no map just Noah.
Anyways, so
Hand them a page or a word and say god.
Sometimes they would just kidnap them as children. I also sat there once and watched someone toy with electronics and convinced her that she was hearing God. Since they "imagine the practice." Even some weather anomalies, not all. They could possibly do so with male or female and mindfully victimize them.
With that nice mental health program while other's god is all inside "your head." Literally falsely harassed people. Which is going too far these days.
Also stated because they worshipped this He already knew, my father why has thou forsaken me.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

No there are plenty of verses that say He is God.
One point the only time he begins to even referenced as an animal or a son is with John.
Any reference that he was given or stated different is counter in the whole book.
Even down to exactly what type of spirit you deal with.
Even logos itself. For He countered that the word too within.
Caligula: I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am
calligraphy
Which in ancient types it was used to brainwash make slaves and tip up families. To gain self even if they don't want to, but by design that wouldn't leave wholes in people hearts.
For example humans are the only ones who really look in the mirror at THEMSELVES. They also become obsessed with what God might look like if they heard of monotheism many times they still had one ruler or a few. Humans are the only ones to look to the sky and perceive it, thus knowing this they used it in brainwashing that is even far from logical or emotional such as the worship of death and hell. Those that they can pretend that they have the ability; can have spies and angels.
Now if you say to a human what kind of animal are you? They probably would laugh and pick one. But if you do some hard core mental heart felt anguish; severe enough you can convince them they are animals, you can use drugs to pacify or cause aggression and give them inculcations. Anthropology. Or even mix them or do crazy doctor stuff.
Hand them a page or a word and say god.
Sometimes they would just kidnap them as children.

That's why I say Jesus is God and every verse is even able to be countered against its own. Which Jesus came in the flesh. Not on a graph, chart, picture, statue, or paper for it wasn't written yet. And He healed without evolution, and they worshiped evolution and angels even those that said they worshipped the one true God.
Because of it they still didn't recognize him and picked the evolution that was taught at the time. Of course for others they picked devolution, that's usually to do with a hierarchy thing or culture bash or priests. Sometimes they think its the way of life. I'd definitely understand some of that and forgive it.
Ignorance in the garden means you are not likely to sense a danger or sense that something is actually being worshipped but covered up.

 

[RESOLUTION]

You can rant and say I am wrong about nobody knowing for certain that Jesus (p) actually said everything or even anything attributed to him.

It doesn't change the fact that it is a fact and faith is the only reason to accept it is the true words of the Messiah, not proof.

There is no proof of that. We know only what the Bible says, not if every word is correct and true.

Ranting isn't going to change that fact of life.

Whose ranting?

The proof is the word of God in the OT by the Prophets. You cannot hijack the promises of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the Jews and make them yours by saying that Mahomet somehow
inherited them. It would make a sham and a mockery of all that YHWH is and has stood for in his rightful position as the Almighty God.
Jews tend to ignore everyone else being secure in their trust in God. They know God does not change his mind about who he promises things to.
Christ fulfilled the OT promises of the Messiah and most important he was born of the three people who had been promised by God and had covenants.

The actual truth is that people have more than the bible who believe in God. They know the presence of God in their lives.
Which the Jews and Christians, do. I suppose your words really reflect the beliefs of others in that they don't have the presence of God and Jesus Christ so would feel as your words relate.
But that is not how true Jews feel who worship in Spirit and Truth.

Having said that... I am not sure why how that reflects on the thread " If Jesus is God" . Jesus it says is the Son of God. It says God with him and would put his own words in his mouth.
Can a religion which is not part of those truths really understand the promises between the true God and his true people the Jews?

So I understand your frustration in that your religion not mentioned in the promises of God and it's people not part of Gods people and promises.
You can only become the people of the God of the bible by being born of Isaac and Jacobs line or becoming a Christian. But I see how it might frustrate you,
But trying to destroy what the Jews and the Christian are part of, only serves to leave a building without a foundation and once there is no foundation it would topple.

 

[RESOLUTION]

This thread has nothing to do with Islam but Arabs were Ishmaelites in the Bible, Ishmael (p) the Patriarch was given his own region and had 12 sons like Jacob.

So Mohammed (s) was an Ishmaelite, a descendant of Abraham, it is not just an invention. All Arabs are descendants of Shem, Semites, through Abraham, and Semitic. Some Muslims are not Semitic, like myself a European born in America.

Ishmael was the son of his servant girl Hagar. His mother and himself were not part of the covenant of descendants of Abraham and Sarah.
God ensured no one could hijack his promise by making Sarah the MOTHER of all nations and of Kings.King James Bible
And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.


I am well aware of who Ishmael was. Mahomet claimed to be a descendant of his but no proof provided. It would not make any difference because God clearly told Moses he was the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Isaac being the Son of the Promise and his Mother Sarah the Matriarchal female.
Why you are raising these issues I do not know. I am descended from the line of Issac. I am of the line but now everyone in the New Covenant who are Christians grafted in through Gods Messiah.

Arabs have historically been known as Ishmaelites, Biblically as well. Every Arab has a legitimate right to claim descendancy from Abraham equal to a Semitic (non Ashkenazi or convert descended from Japeth and Gomer, other non Israelite religous Jews) Jewish person like the Sephardic Jews. Greater right than Ashkenazi Jews or non Semitic Christians.

I don't know what you were trying to accomplish but I don't think you accomplished anything.

Anyone could descend from Abraham but the only line of descendants which count for the children of God are those born through Sarah and the chosen Son Isaac.
There is nothing to show the line of Mahomet to Ishmael is there from the Bible/Torah.

Jesus as "son of God" was originally, according to the Ebionites and early MSS. of Luke, begotten at Baptism like David was begotten on command and Jesus (p) is no more a son of God than David, another Messiah.

"This day I have begotten you" is in earliest Luke and the surviving quotes from "Gospel of the Hebrews" used by Ebionites and Nazarenes.

It is a quote from the OT of God to David.

I suppose you would deliberate ignore the prophecies he fulfilled and the fact that he did the things on someone God sent could do. In fact he is still doing them.
If you want proof do as all who believe have done ask God. Ask him to show you who Christ is. Seek and ye will find.

"Only begotten" is an outright lie according to the Tanakh.

The Jewish Bible does not support your statement. Something you were told, I believe.

 

[SethZaddik]

No there are plenty of verses that say He is God.
One point the only time he begins to even be referenced as an animal or a son is with John.
Any reference that he was given or stated different is counter in the whole book.
Even down to exactly what type of spirit you deal with.
Even logos itself. For He countered that the word too within.
Caligula: I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am
calligraphy
Which in ancient types it was used to brainwash make slaves and tip up families. To gain self even if they don't want to, but by design that wouldn't leave wholes in people hearts unfortunately do to evolution; you can point out where it has.
For example humans are the only ones who really look in the mirror at THEMSELVES. They also become obsessed with what God might look like if they heard of monotheism many times they still had one ruler or a few. Humans are the only ones to look to the sky and perceive it, thus knowing this they used it in brainwashing that is even far from logical or emotional such as the worship of death and hell. Those that they can pretend that they have the ability; can have spies and angels. Also still notice that for whatever reason satan and hell are not thrown out until revelation but they are supposedly present in the new testament. Like why? Not really an operation.
Now if you say to a human what kind of animal are you? They probably would laugh and pick one. But if you do some hard core mental heart felt anguish; severe enough you can convince them they are animals, you can use drugs to pacify or cause aggression and give them inculcations. Now robotics. Anthropology. Or even mix them or do crazy doctor stuff. Or give them tools, but while some where thinking about making things useful others wanted use of them thus sometimes you have Job. Or another man with no last name or stated location, no map just Noah.
Anyways, so
Hand them a page or a word and say god.
Sometimes they would just kidnap them as children. I also sat there once and watched someone toy with electronics and convinced her that she was hearing God. Since they "imagine the practice." Even some weather anomalies, not all. They could possibly do so with male or female and mindfully victimize them.
With that nice mental health program while other's god is all inside "your head." Literally falsely harassed people. Which is going too far these days.
Also stated because they worshipped this He already knew, my father why has thou forsaken me.

I don't know how you can say, " No there are plenty of verses that say he is God."

I literally quoted most and listed the rest of the verses used to claim this and accurately explained how they do not prove he IS God, but that he is NOT.

I also included the words of Jesus DENYING that he is God.

I think you missed something.

I also transliterated John 1, the most popular "proof" and showed how Ton theon is used for God, the lesser theos, for the Word.

Any attempts to dispute these facts are mere sophistry.

 

[SethZaddik]

Ishmael was the son of his servant girl Hagar. His mother and himself were not part of the covenant of descendants of Abraham and Sarah.
God ensured no one could hijack his promise by making Sarah the MOTHER of all nations and of Kings.King James Bible
And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.


I am well aware of who Ishmael was. Mahomet claimed to be a descendant of his but no proof provided. It would not make any difference because God clearly told Moses he was the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Isaac being the Son of the Promise and his Mother Sarah the Matriarchal female.
Why you are raising these issues I do not know. I am descended from the line of Issac. I am of the line but now everyone in the New Covenant who are Christians grafted in through Gods Messiah.



Anyone could descend from Abraham but the only line of descendants which count for the children of God are those born through Sarah and the chosen Son Isaac.
There is nothing to show the line of Mahomet to Ishmael is there from the Bible/Torah.




I suppose you would deliberate ignore the prophecies he fulfilled and the fact that he did the things on someone God sent could do. In fact he is still doing them.
If you want proof do as all who believe have done ask God. Ask him to show you who Christ is. Seek and ye will find.




The Jewish Bible does not support your statement. Something you were told, I believe.

Yes it does.

David is called begotten by God.

"You are my son, this day I have BEGOTTEN you."

Is said BY God TO David. (Psalm 2:7 NRSV)

Making "only begotten" incorrect, or a lie, according TO the Tanakh ("Jewish Bible").

I really didn't read much of your message because of the innaccuracy of you claims.

But whatever your dispute about Ishmael was, he was according to the laws of the day the rightful first son of Abraham, a Semite, and Patriarch of the Arabic people.

The reason the Qur'an has Ishmael in Isaac's place (in Torah) is because it says "eldest son" before Isaac is mentionied.

Ishmael was the eldest son.

I only said that because someone was erroneously under the impression that Mohammed (s) simply claimed to be descended from Ishmael, but it is true and Jews call Arabs to this day "Ishmaelites" along with all religously educated individuals.

I don't know what point you were trying to make but you didn't make it. You didn't make any point.

 

[SethZaddik]

The crucial Greek words of the second and third lines are
kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en o logos.

I already posted this, but thanks, theos is inferior to ton theon, which is included in my OP, but thanks for the independent confirmation.

The debate on the third line centers on the fact that theos is used without an article. Clearly, in the second line ho theos refers to God the Father, but in predicating theos without the article ho of the Word in the third line is the author trying to suggest that the Word is somewhat less than the Father?

There are texts where the use of God for Jesus is dubious;
Gal 2:20, Acts 20:28, Jn 1:18.
Further passages where obscurity arises from syntax;
Col2:2, 2Th 1:12, Tit 2:13, IJn 5:20, Rom 9:5, 2Pt 1:1.

Texts where Jesus is clearly called God;
Heb 1:8-9, Jn 1:1, Jn 20:28.

None of these verses (or anything in the New Testament), says Jesus is God or clearly calls him God.

Which is why you didn't provide the quotes. I can easily show you you are wrong if you do.

Its important to realize a developing faith in Christ. Jesus is never called God in the Synoptic Gospels and the passage in Mark

Or anywhere. He actually denied it several times as I've shown. If anyone did call him God in the NT (they did not) it would be contradicting the man himself, (p).

seems to preclude the possibility that Jesus used the title of himself. There is little or no reason to think that Jesus was called God in the earliest layers of NT tradition. Dating NT times from 30 to 100, the use of God for Jesus belongs to the second half of the period. Thus the possibility calling Jesus God is of Hellenistic thought to Christian theology since the lack of evidence that Jesus was called God in the Jerusalem or Palestinian communities of the1st two decades of Christianity.
One explanation for the developing of the title God for Jesus, that in the earliest stage of Christianity the OT heritage dominated the use of the title God, God was a title too narrow to be applied to Jesus, to the God to whom he prayed. Possible in the 50's and 60's, in developing Christian thought "God" was understood in a broader term. Another explanation, that the usage of calling Jesus God was a liturgical usage and had its origin in the worship and prayers of the Christian community. The Prologue of John was originally a hymn.

A for effort but F for accuracy.

 

[SethZaddik]

Someone who is haphazard in his description of himself may also be haphazard in his proof of things he thinks he knows about.

Lame attempt at making me seem unreliable because I don't care about my profile, as if it matter.

You simply took advantage of the fact that I used the WORD haphazard and thought dishonestly applying it to my character was a good idea.

It was not. My profile is not something I pay attention to, I am concerned with facts of religion and discussing them.

Not with what my profile says.

Stop grasping at straws because I made you look ill informed, become informed and you won't have that problem anymore.

 

[SethZaddik]

We are all "children" of God.

Ishmael was circumcised and blessed with 12 sons and a region for his descendants by God, is a part of the Covenant. Circumcision is the sign of Covenant between Abraham and God for ALL his descendants.

You need to read your Bible. Islam acknowledges the special status of the Israelites but it doesn't take anything away from Ishmael or Islam. It honors them with this distinction in the Qur'an.

There is nothing to show the line of Mahomet to Ishmael is there from the Bible/Torah.

Arabs are Ishmaelites according to the Bible, Mohammed (s) WAS an Arab/Ishmaelite.

You could not be more incorrect.

I suppose you would deliberate ignore the prophecies he fulfilled and the fact that he did the things on someone God sent could do. In fact he is still doing them.
If you want proof do as all who believe have done ask God. Ask him to show you who Christ is. Seek and ye will find.

Those prophecies that say absolutely NOTHING about the Messiah being God further prove my point.

It does actually, as you now know. Or at least SHOULD know.

 

[Evie]

Often it is taken for granted that Jesus (p) is God. 2,000 years of tradition has taken precedent over the actual words of the Bible and the Word himself.

I am going to post the verses used to "prove" Jesus (p) is God, show how they do the exact opposite and thus prove with the evidence used pro Jesus being God it actually proves the opposite. It is not at all difficult.

Then I will post the verses that directly contradict the theory that Jesus is equal to God, and if he is not equal he is not God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word(Logos), and the Word was with God (Tontheos) and the Word was God (theos, which means Divine or A god, NOT God).

This is obviously not saying that Jesus is God in the original Koine Greek, it is saying that God's Word is Divine, borrowing from Platonic/Philonic philosophy (Logos) for a Hellenistic audience.

14: And the Word became flesh and lived amongst us.

Jesus was created BY the Word of God (virgin birth), as such he is CALLED the Word, even in Islam. Also because he was GIVEN authority to speak FOR God and clarify the Torah, which had been corrupted by tradition.

It is interesting that John is the only book that is used of all Gospels as an offer of proof, I have seen people TRY using the other 3 but it is not worthy of refutation being so ridiculous. Feel free to offer evidence to the contrary.

John 8:58

" Truly I tell you, before Abraham was, I am."

Because God says to Moses "I am that I am" it is ASSUMED Jesus means to say "I AM I am" but he doesn't say that AT ALL.

Punctuation was non existent, it could just as easily be "Before Abraham, was I am (God)."

But I will give the benefit of the doubt, besides, Muslims actually do believe in the preexistence of Jesus.

Which is ALL he was saying, before Abraham was, I am(prexistent, immortal, not God though).

John 10:30

"I and my Father are one."

Out of context I can see why people misinterpret this verse. Let's see what Jesus says right after this when he is about to be stoned:

"I have shown you many good works FROM THE FATHER."

His Father, our Father, the Father. Clearly Jesus is not saying he himself is God THE FATHER, and that his good works are FROM the Father and not of his doing alone.

Which is why he says, 10:29 "What my Father has GIVEN me is greater than all else, and no one (not even Jesus) can snatch it out of the Father's hand. THE Father and I are one."

A metaphor for a united will. God's will is Jesus will, not visa versa.

John 21:25 Judah Thomas exclaims excitedly:

"My lord and my God!"

Perhaps the most dishonest of "proofs" used to try supporting the Nicene Creed, Thomas, here an Apostle is in doubt that Jesus has ressurected until he touches him, odd scene because Mary Magdalene was not allowed to touch him because he had "not yet Ascended."

Nevertheless, Thomas didn't call Jesus "My lord AND my God." Despite Lord being commonly translated from YHVH, YHVH doesn't mean Lord and humans are called lord in the Bible all the time, by Hebrews. God is YHVH-Elohim or El Shaddai, El Elyon, etc.

Maybe he is calling Jesus his lord, but it is far from obvious or clear. He definitely is not calling him Elohim/God though, as he knows he is not God, Jesus talks ABOUT God but never says he IS God and neither does Thomas. "My God!" is an understandable response to seeing a dead man (reportedly, only Peter actually saw the crucifixion, little known fact that it is he denies Jesus because he is "stalking" the Messiah and while doing so is asked repeatedly if he is one of his disciples).

Now the proof that Jesus is not God or equal.

Mt. 24:36
"But about that day and hour no one knows, not angels in Heaven, nor the son, but ONLY the Father."

This destroys the theory of equality between God and Jesus

Mt. 26:39 "My Father, if possible, let this cup pass from me....Yet not what I want but what you want."

Jesus is asking if it is possible and His will, let him out of this situation he doesn't want to be in, but will nevertheless go through with it if GOD wills it so. It is clear who is the Power, God.

Mark 10:18
"Why do you call me good? No one is good but God ALONE."

That is an outright denial that Jesus is God in the flesh. If God alone, not Jesus the Messiah, is good and Jesus rebuked someone who called him good on that account, denying being good even, he can't possibly be God. Because God IS good, ALONE, not Jesus (who is obviously good, but he is making a point, specifically, save the praises for the One Who deserves them, God).

I feel I have proven my point and will leave you with the knowledge that John 5:19,29, 30; 14:28 & 17:21-23 also prove it if you want to look them up. I just don't want this to be too long.

Peace be upon Jesus and the 12 Apostles.

Peace be with you all/Salaam.

Jesus is a Way of life and not a religion the way I see it. Religion seems to be a man made enterprise. God is God not a form of religion. He stands alone Sovereign over all that is, ever was and ever will be.

 

[Evie]

Th

Elohim is spelled plurally but is not, "Plural of Majesty" is what most call it, and in the early days of Ugarit/Canaan it was plural for "Host of Heaven" or "Sons of El/God", Illhim.

But in the finalized Bible and for millennia it has referred to YHVH as His alternative to it, Elohim, translated to "God" because that is what it means, YHVH is translated to Lord but that is a substitute for Jehovah, and unrelated.

Elohim being a plural word in Hebrew, or looking like a plural word to be more accurate, doesn't help your argument that the word "God" is like "family" my point was that it is like saying "God" MEANS "Gods", literally, and because of the word Elohim looking plural even though it refers to One God, factually speaking.

Because they sure don't translate Elohim as "Gods" as it is not truly plural, it is spelled that way only.

So if you had tried to use that as evidence it would have been incorrect, I didn't think you would actually misinterpret it and try and use it, you missed my point.

Maybe I was not clear enough but this should clarify.

There are three. The Father the Son and the Holy Ghost according to the Bible. And all three are One.