[This thread is a carryover from a discussion I've had with
@Deeje on another thread, so I'm hoping she joins us here]
I have woken up to an invitation this morning.
Thank you metis.
Joe Schmoe is a truly nice man who is very compassionate towards all and also is very just (fair) towards all. Even though he attends a local Anglican (Episcopalian) church, he has some doubts about the nature of God, including even at times questioning whether there is a God, and he also sometimes questions Jesus' divinity.
Jane Schmoe, Joe's wife, is an observant Jew who also is both very compassionate and just towards all, believes in God but doesn't see Jesus as being God or being divine. She feels that Jesus was spot-on with his statements about love, compassion, justice, and the need to put these into action, but she strongly doubts the divine claims about him. She feels at home in Joe's church even if she can't identify with all that is taught there.
As they are right now, do you think that it might be possible that God may grant them "salvation"? Why or why not?
I have a sneaky feeling that this is describing people we know......
There is no way for humans to examine hearts....only God can do that. So who qualifies for salvation and who doesn't is up to God's appointed judge....not any one of us. All we can do, is what Jesus did.....tell people what God's word says and leave it up to them.
There are many "good" people in the world; some of them identify as Christians, some follow other faiths, and many of them are atheists. Did God say that salvation was to be granted to "good" people? Is being a good person (in the view of other humans) all that is required for salvation?
Can all who claim Jesus as their "Lord" be assured of his acceptance of them?
Jesus says no.
Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"
The ones protesting that they have done all these things 'in Jesus' name' didn't cut any mustard with Jesus. He calls them "workers of lawlessness"! So whose laws are they breaking? Isn't it obvious?
Can we examine more of what Jesus said regarding this question.
John 15:1-10: Speaking to his fellow Jews, Jesus said.....
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the cultivator. 2 He takes away every branch in me not bearing fruit, and he cleans every one bearing fruit, so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in union with me, and I will remain in union with you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you unless you remain in union with me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever remains in union with me and I in union with him, this one bears much fruit; for apart from me you can do nothing at all. 6 If anyone does not remain in union with me, he is thrown out like a branch and dries up. And men gather those branches and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you remain in union with me and my sayings remain in you, ask whatever you wish and it will take place for you. 8 My Father is glorified in this, that you keep bearing much fruit and prove yourselves my disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; remain in my love. 10 If you observe my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love."
For the Jews, only those who accepted Jesus as Messiah were acceptable to his Father. Jesus came as the last prophet to correct God's people. (Hebrews 1:1-2) Those who did not accept the correction are likened to a dried up branch, fit for nothing but firewood. Because they rejected Christ, and had him put to death, God abandoned the Jews, not as individuals, but as a nation. (Matthew 23:37-39) Those who became disciples of Christ had to put in great effort to remain obedient to Christ's teachings despite the opposition from their fellow Jews and even their own relatives. (Matthew 7:21-23; 10:36-39)
As for those who identify as Christians, we have to remember that Jesus foretold that "weeds" would be planted by the devil in opposition to the "wheat". (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43) Both were to grow together until the "harvest" time. True and false Christians together.
This was an apostasy that would render Christianity as useless to God as the fractured Jewish system was in Jesus' day. Only now we have literally thousands of denominations and sects all claiming to be Christ's disciples, yet teaching different things. There are not many versions of the truth...there can be only one. Hence, we have to dig for the 'hidden treasure'. It's not lying out in the open, we have to search for it, putting in much effort to find it. The effort will be rewarded if we have the qualities that God is looking for in the ones to whom he will grant citizenship in his kingdom.
How can you tell who the "real" Christians are, as opposed to the false ones?
This is where it gets interesting......Jesus said in John 13:34-35....
" I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”
Just on that criteria alone, the churches show that they do not love their 'brothers', because the "love" they have for their fellow Christians is conditional. As an example, if we look at what happened in the two World Wars, Christendom was fully supportive of those conflicts, providing chaplains and prayers for victory, telling their charges that God was on their side. Yet on the opposing side, the clergy of the same denominations were doing the same thing....so whose side was God on whilst Catholic killed Catholic and Protestant killed Protestant? How do you disobey the Christ and do harm to your 'brothers' whilst all supposedly praying to the same God? (Isaiah 1:15)
Is the situation any different today? Do we not still see the clergy and the military arm in arm, when Jesus said that we are to be "no part of the world'. (John 15:18-21) Are they not friends with many of the world's political leaders? What does being 'friends with the world' mean for Christians?
James wrote....
"Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God."
If we obey Jesus and are to "love our enemies", then how can we fail to love our brothers in Christ and still call ourselves "Christians"? How can we put friendship with the world before love of our fellow Christians?
What about adopting pagan celebrations and calling them by another name? Can they be 'sanitized' and made acceptable to God somehow?
Not according to Paul who wrote...at 2 Corinthians 6:14-18:
"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”
Do you see any sanction for adopting pagan beliefs and celebrations into Christianity? And what is more, why would anyone want to?
So, summing up just those few points, we can see clearly that just calling yourself a Christian and going through the motions of professing belief and attending "church", doesn't really account for much if your worship is tainted with worldly association and false beliefs and celebrations.
If we are of the right heart attitude, then God will draw us to his truth. (John 6:44) If we do not have the qualities that God is looking for, but are satisfied to keep the things that God has told us in his word are unacceptable, then we will receive nothing from God...not even any correction.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
"But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."
So if we prefer to believe that which is not true, stubbornly hanging onto things that Christ never taught, then God will allow us to keep those delusions because we are not one of his and probably never were.
What generated this discussion is how we may look at John 3:16, which reads "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life", plus what are the ramifications of this?
So this scripture read in the light of the foregoing.....indicates that it means more to God "what" we believe, rather than "that" we "believe". (James 2:19)
This is how I read the Bible and is the perspective of JW's. The opposite of eternal life in that scripture is not "hell" but to "perish", which means to be taken out of existence.....or eternal death.
I hope that has answered your question metis.
I know it is probably not the answer you were looking for.
We can't just hope we have the truth, it has to be a strong conviction......either that or a string delusion. Jesus will decide.
