How far can one go in not taking the Bible literally?

[Skwim]

In another thread the issue of reading the Bible literally came up.

In response to my assumption that everyone would agree that according to the Bible god had killed people, Saint Frankenstein said "It's cute how you assume I think God actually killed anyone. You assume wrong."

Okay, but this prompted me to provide several examples, remarking "Sorry. I simply assumed that you believe what the Bible says. Things like

Numbers 11:1
And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.

1 Samuel 25:38
And it came to pass about ten days after, that the LORD smote Nabal, that he died.

2 Chronicles 13:20
Neither did Jeroboam recover strength again in the days of Abijah: and the LORD struck him, and he died.

Joshua 10:10
And the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah.

Joshua 10:11
And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.​

In response, Saint Frankenstein said "You assume I take the OT as literal history or that there's no other ways to interpret verses. Maybe you should stop assuming things." I said I would, but out of curiosity asked: "if you would indulge me for a moment and tell me what

"Eventually Yahweh struck him and he died,"* ​

actually means.

* Source: Bible - Catholic Online


After this we had several more exchanges, but none addressed my request. However, Saint Frankenstein did finally say "I'll reply to [my request] it if you make it [in another thread]." Thus the origin of this thread. And ya gotta give the guy credit for his probity.

So here we are. Hopefully in the next post or so he will tell us what the verse actually means.

But aside from this I invite everyone chime in on the issue of difficult scriptures; Are there passages simply so troublesome that they demand not be taken literally, but beg to be reinterpreted no matter what?

 

[psychoslice]

I myself don't take anything in the bible literal, what I do take from the bible I take it being a metaphor, it works for me.

 

[Deathbydefault]

Well.. there are plenty of Bible followers that never read the book, so...

 

[JustWondering]

In my younger years I decided to read through the bible cover to cover. It's a big book. Regardless of what flavor of Christianity you lean to, there's going to be problematic verses in the bible that contradict what you want to take from it. At that point you start the mental gymnastics or remain honest and search for another religion that makes sense or become atheist. I eventually couldn't find any satisfactory answers from religion and said screw it, became atheist.

 

[sun rise]

Even beyond questions of which parts, if any, you take literally, which parts you take as symbolic and which parts you might believe are written for political purposes, there's a question of translation/version which can have a subtly different meaning in another version. To me, this is a teaching story not a literal story. If you are looking to complain, it's a sin which automatically calls forth negative consequences aka punishment.

For example: Numbers 11 from Chabad Bamidbar - Numbers - Chapter 11 (Parshah Behaalotecha)

1The people were looking to complain, and it was evil in the ears of the Lord. The Lord heard and His anger flared, and a fire from the Lord burned among them, consuming the extremes of the camp.

2The people cried out to Moses; Moses prayed to the Lord, and the fire died down.

3He named that place Tab'erah, for the fire of the Lord had burned among them there.

4But the multitude among them began to have strong cravings. Then even the children of Israel once again began to cry, and they said, "Who will feed us meat?

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

But aside from this I invite everyone chime in on the issue of difficult scriptures; Are there passages simply so troublesome that they demand not be taken literally, but beg to be reinterpreted no matter what?

if any words in the bible are to be taken literally, it is the history of the OT, not the allegory of the NT. gawd is a murdering ******* that should be shot on sight! In my opinion he's a menace to society! He's a plague on mankind! He's a pedantic, neurotic, thin skinned, pos, genocidal, jealous, angry, son of a *****, in my humble opinion. I'm speaking of the gawd of the protestant bible! BTW/ I can see why frankenstein loves him so much!

 

[Dawnofhope]

In another thread the issue of reading the Bible literally came up.

In response to my assumption that everyone would agree that according to the Bible god had killed people, Saint Frankenstein said "It's cute how you assume I think God actually killed anyone. You assume wrong."

Okay, but this prompted me to provide several examples, remarking "Sorry. I simply assumed that you believe what the Bible says. Things like

Numbers 11:1
And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.

1 Samuel 25:38
And it came to pass about ten days after, that the LORD smote Nabal, that he died.

2 Chronicles 13:20
Neither did Jeroboam recover strength again in the days of Abijah: and the LORD struck him, and he died.

Joshua 10:10
And the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah.

Joshua 10:11
And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.​

In response, Saint Frankenstein said "You assume I take the OT as literal history or that there's no other ways to interpret verses. Maybe you should stop assuming things." I said I would, but out of curiosity asked: "if you would indulge me for a moment and tell me what

"Eventually Yahweh struck him and he died,"* ​

actually means.

* Source: Bible - Catholic Online


After this we had several more exchanges, but none addressed my request. However, Saint Frankenstein did finally say "I'll reply to [my request] it if you make it [in another thread]." Thus the origin of this thread. And ya gotta give the guy credit for his probity.

So here we are. Hopefully in the next post or so he will tell us what the verse actually means.

But aside from this I invite everyone chime in on the issue of difficult scriptures; Are there passages simply so troublesome that they demand not be taken literally, but beg to be reinterpreted no matter what?

Of course God took life and involved Himself in war. It was an inevitability of living in a world of empires and barbarism. Most empires wouldn't have lasted too long if they couldn't defend themselves and consider the occasional pre-emptive attack.

Much wisdom in ancient times revolved around war did it not? A significant part of the story of the Hebrew peoples was about its relationship with other peoples and empires. It was vastly different times. Why sanitise it to make it into something it isn't?

There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

 

[Kirran]

I do find it interesting this strong tendency in the atheistic Christianity-critic scene to essentially assume that Christianity is made or broken by whether the evangelical fundamentalist reading of scripture is correct.

 

[jtartar]

In another thread the issue of reading the Bible literally came up.

In response to my assumption that everyone would agree that according to the Bible god had killed people, Saint Frankenstein said "It's cute how you assume I think God actually killed anyone. You assume wrong."

Okay, but this prompted me to provide several examples, remarking "Sorry. I simply assumed that you believe what the Bible says. Things like

Numbers 11:1
And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.

1 Samuel 25:38
And it came to pass about ten days after, that the LORD smote Nabal, that he died.

2 Chronicles 13:20
Neither did Jeroboam recover strength again in the days of Abijah: and the LORD struck him, and he died.

Joshua 10:10
And the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah.

Joshua 10:11
And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.​

In response, Saint Frankenstein said "You assume I take the OT as literal history or that there's no other ways to interpret verses. Maybe you should stop assuming things." I said I would, but out of curiosity asked: "if you would indulge me for a moment and tell me what

"Eventually Yahweh struck him and he died,"* ​

actually means.

* Source: Bible - Catholic Online


After this we had several more exchanges, but none addressed my request. However, Saint Frankenstein did finally say "I'll reply to [my request] it if you make it [in another thread]." Thus the origin of this thread. And ya gotta give the guy credit for his probity.

So here we are. Hopefully in the next post or so he will tell us what the verse actually means.

But aside from this I invite everyone chime in on the issue of difficult scriptures; Are there passages simply so troublesome that they demand not be taken literally, but beg to be reinterpreted no matter what?

Skwim,
I have found two Bibles that I would encourage all to acquire, both can be found by clicking on; OliveTree.com. One is The Amplified Bible, and the other is a really unique Bible, called Net Bible. This Bible was made completely on the internet, over a period of over 20 years, with anyone who had a reason to disagree with what it said, are encouraged to write to them about your belief. In this way the whole Net Bible was made, along with 35, I believe, scholars, who are experts in different subjects.
You can get this Bible by just clicking on; NetBible.org, but it cost $19 dollars. On Olive Tree it is $4.95. Well worth the price!!
Just like all Bibles it is not perfect, but very good. There are two different copies, one has over 60,000 translator notes, and study notes, called full notes version.
This Bible will help you to understand what many verses that are hard to understand, are saying
Omething I learned reading the Preface to the Net Bible is; a completely Literal Bible is the very worst Bible made, because a Bible translated from either Hebrew or Greek is totally impossible to understand. Agape!!!

 

[Kemosloby]

When a tree falls on a car they call it an act of God. Though God never says, and I smashed his car with a tree. I have no problem believing God kills people, as a matter of fact the bible says it is reserved for God to decide life and death. If a fox hunts a rabbit the fox does the killing but God decides if the rabbit dies or escapes.

 

[McBell]

I do find it interesting this strong tendency in the atheistic Christianity-critic scene to essentially assume that Christianity is made or broken by whether the evangelical fundamentalist reading of scripture is correct.

Interesting assumptions on your part.

 

[Kirran]

Interesting assumptions on your part.

I am glad you think so, I must come around and try yours sometime! We can put on a spread for the occasion.

Honestly, I feel it's more an observation than an assumption.

 

[McBell]

I am glad you think so, I must come around and try yours sometime! We can put on a spread for the occasion.

Honestly, I feel it's more an observation than an assumption.

Looks like an observation based on assumption to me.

Many threads look like a baseless attack on a specific subgroup when the fact of the matter is the thread is to have discussion about the specific subgroup.

It is interesting how many of those threads get hijacked by someone whining about how not all of the main group are like the specific subgroup the thread was supposed to be about.
As though the thread author was completely unaware of it, regardless of the OP flat out stating as such....

 

[Kirran]

Looks like an observation based on assumption to me.

Many threads look like a baseless attack on a specific subgroup when the fact of the matter is the thread is to have discussion about the specific subgroup.

It is interesting how many of those threads get hijacked by someone whining about how not all of the main group are like the specific subgroup the thread was supposed to be about.
As though the thread author was completely unaware of it, regardless of the OP flat out stating as such....

Well, fair enough, we all have our own views.

 

[McBell]

I do find it interesting this strong tendency in the atheistic Christianity-critic scene to essentially assume that Christianity is made or broken by whether the evangelical fundamentalist reading of scripture is correct.

I fail to see how the OP is anywhere close to what you describe in the above quoted post.
Looks to me that the thread author is asking Saint Frankenstein to clarify how he interprets the specific verses presented in the OP.

Perhaps you can clarify for me how the OP is an example of what you claim in the above quoted post?

 

[Kirran]

I fail to see how the OP is anywhere close to what you describe in the above quoted post.
Looks to me that the thread author is asking Saint Frankenstein to clarify how he interprets the specific verses presented in the OP.

Perhaps you can clarify for me how the OP is an example of what you claim in the above quoted post?

I wasn't saying it was, it was a tangential point. Related, but not directly leading on from its questions.

 

[McBell]

I wasn't saying it was, it was a tangential point. Related, but not directly leading on from its questions.

I still fail to see how it is even remotely related to the OP...

Since It appears a clarification is not coming, I suppose I will forever be stumped.

 

[Willamena]

In another thread the issue of reading the Bible literally came up.

In response to my assumption that everyone would agree that according to the Bible god had killed people, Saint Frankenstein said "It's cute how you assume I think God actually killed anyone. You assume wrong."

Okay, but this prompted me to provide several examples, remarking "Sorry. I simply assumed that you believe what the Bible says. Things like

Numbers 11:1
And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.

1 Samuel 25:38
And it came to pass about ten days after, that the LORD smote Nabal, that he died.

2 Chronicles 13:20
Neither did Jeroboam recover strength again in the days of Abijah: and the LORD struck him, and he died.

Joshua 10:10
And the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah.

Joshua 10:11
And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.​

In response, Saint Frankenstein said "You assume I take the OT as literal history or that there's no other ways to interpret verses. Maybe you should stop assuming things." I said I would, but out of curiosity asked: "if you would indulge me for a moment and tell me what

"Eventually Yahweh struck him and he died,"* ​

actually means.

* Source: Bible - Catholic Online

"Died" can be non-literal: we "die a little, inside" when, for example, someone disappoints us, or when our dreams are crushed.

However, I would suggest that the line above is meant to be literal but in a story-telling mode. When god "acts," it is an expression of happenstance, or fate.

 

[icehorse]

I do find it interesting this strong tendency in the atheistic Christianity-critic scene to essentially assume that Christianity is made or broken by whether the evangelical fundamentalist reading of scripture is correct.

My recurring question is this: By what means to those who admire scripture know how to cherry-pick it?

 

[Kirran]

My recurring question is this: By what means to those who admire scripture know how to cherry-pick it?

It's not about cherry-picking if you don't take scripture as the literal and direct words of X divine authority. Plenty of Christians see the Bible as a text which was written across a historical period by particular people with their own backgrounds to reflect their own understandings of God and their personal inspiration. Some take aspects of this so far as to say that the Bible was written inspired by God but transcribed by the writers, so it's God's word in spirit but not in letter, so to speak. I sympathise with the former with a dash of the latter.