Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints 'Christian'.

[Sonny]

What is necessary for the LDS to be/to not be Christian?

 

[Neo Deist]

Along with Joseph Smith, the Three Witnesses Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer had a vision of the angel with the Golden Plates shown to Joseph Smith.

They were not credible witnesses.

1. Oliver Cowdery practiced divination with rods, used seer stones, believed in second sight, etc. We call that witchcraft.
2. Harris, after excommunication, was known to talk about his vision as being completely subjective in nature.
3. All three witnesses had close ties to Smith, whether as family, friend, by marriage, or financial backing.

Now I will leave it at that.

/out

 

[Kirran]

Yes indeed.

The Church of Endland and all Anglican churches and other trinitarian faiths. share a common view about non trinitarians. Including the Unitarians and LDS.
As a very Unitarian minded Anglican, I am somewhat out of step, and tend to look at how a church acts and behaves rather than the details of their beliefs and dogma.

We all get things wrong, we are all fallible, and we are all sinners. So who apart from God can decide who is worthy.

Well, I suppose I'm largely with you. The Church of England is an alright denomination in my eyes, although I do wish there was a stronger push on social witness, including of queer people, communion be damned. But plenty of clergy within the CoE would agree with me there.

I got on very well with an Anglican priest who served as chaplain here in Manchester. He spoke about how Christ-consciousness and Krishna-consciousness were really talking about the same thing.

What is necessary for the LDS to be/to not be Christian?

For its people to follow Jesus as they see it and to consider themselves Christian.

In my mind, someone is far less Christian by their lack of charity than by their "aberrant" doctrine.

They were not credible witnesses.

1. Oliver Cowdery practiced divination with rods, used seer stones, believed in second sight, etc. We call that witchcraft.
2. Harris, after excommunication, was known to talk about his vision as being completely subjective in nature.
3. All three witnesses had close ties to Smith, whether as family, friend, by marriage, or financial backing.

Now I will leave it at that.

/out

Sure, that's why you're not a Latter-day Saint.

 

[Katzpur]

I will just say this and leave it alone: I always find it interesting that the so called "prophets," from Moses to Joseph Smith, always managed to be alone when they received their divine revelation. No one else was around to witness it. That's rather...convenient.

It's also rather false. In several instances, others were with Joseph and were able to corroborate his experience. Several shared in some of the most significant spiritual experiences he had.

 

[Sonny]

Well hey, I'm no Mormon. But they were all very convinced that the experience they had had was genuine.

Indeed, they were. But so was/are the JWs, Scientologists, Christian Science, Westbrook Baptist, Moonies, and all of the rest.
However, the LDS, back then, had numerous angels and Jesus Himself appear to them during some of their church services.
Did that occur in any of the others or any Christian churches? If not, we need to examine why the LDS said such. If so, when, where?

 

[Kirran]

Indeed, they were. But so was/are the JWs, Scientologists, Christian Science, Westbrook Baptist, Moonies, and all of the rest.
However, the LDS, back then, had numerous angels and Jesus Himself appear to them during some of their church services.
Did that occur in any of the others or any Christian churches? If not, we need to examine why the LDS said such. If so, when, where?

How does this relate to the OP question of whether they are Christian?

 

[Katzpur]

They were not credible witnesses.

1. Oliver Cowdery practiced divination with rods, used seer stones, believed in second sight, etc. We call that witchcraft.
2. Harris, after excommunication, was known to talk about his vision as being completely subjective in nature.
3. All three witnesses had close ties to Smith, whether as family, friend, by marriage, or financial backing.

Of course they were credible. You don't have to agree with their beliefs or philosophies, but they were all respected, upstanding members of the community and would have been seen as credible witnesses by their peers, who were certainly in a better position to judge their credibility than you are. And even though several of them eventually had a falling out with Joseph Smith, none of them ever denied their statements regarding the Book of Mormon.

With respect to Martin Harris, this is his deathbed statement: "The Book of Mormon is no fake. I know what I know. I have seen what I have seen and I have heard what I have heard. I have seen the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon is written. An angel appeared to me and others and testified to the truthfulness of the record, and had I been willing to have perjured myself and sworn falsely to the testimony I now bear I could have been a rich man, but I could not have testified other than I have done and am now doing for these things are true."

Now I will leave it at that.

Somehow, I doubt that very much.

 

[Kirran]

Of course they were credible. You don't have to agree with their beliefs or philosophies, but they were all respected members of the community and would have been seen as credible witnesses to their peers. And even though several of them eventually had a falling out with Joseph Smith, none of them ever denied their statements regarding the Book of Mormon. With respect to Martin Harris, this is his deathbed statement: "The Book of Mormon is no fake. I know what I know. I have seen what I have seen and I have heard what I have heard. I have seen the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon is written. An angel appeared to me and others and testified to the truthfulness of the record, and had I been willing to have perjured myself and sworn falsely to the testimony I now bear I could have been a rich man, but I could not have testified other than I have done and am now doing for these things are true."

Katzpur, I recall reading that one of the three men left Joseph Smith's church, but found himself unable to return to Methodism and I think eventually came back, perhaps after JS's death. Which one was this, do you know?

 

[Katzpur]

Katzpur, I recall reading that one of the three men left Joseph Smith's church, but found himself unable to return to Methodism and I think eventually came back, perhaps after JS's death. Which one was this, do you know?

All three were excommunicated at some point, but two of the three returned to full activity in the Church, and even the one who didn't never denied what he had previously sworn to.

 

[Sonny]

]KirraKirran
For its people to follow Jesus as they see it and to consider themselves Christian.

And isn't that why we are where we are today? Everyone thinks/feels they are Christians. Certainly, all who say they are Christians aren't. That is impossible.

In my mind, someone is far less Christian by their lack of charity than by their "aberrant" doctrine.

But is that Christian doctrine? Fact is, this is precisely why we have so many who profess to be Christian and the only true church. What does God's word say about that thinking? That is the test we need to take.




Sure, that's why you're not a Latter-day Saint.[/QUOTE]

 

[Katzpur]

How does this relate to the OP question of whether they are Christian?

Relevance is of little relevance, Kirran. You should know that by now.

 

[Kirran]

And isn't that why we are where we are today? Everyone thinks/feels they are Christians. Certainly, all who say they are Christians aren't. That is impossible.

Why?

But is that Christian doctrine? Fact is, this is precisely why we have so many who profess to be Christian and the only true church. What does God's word say about that thinking? That is the test we need to take.

Whose Christian doctrine? It may not be your doctrine, but your doctrine doesn't define Christianity.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

My sole purpose in starting this Thread is to openly, honestly and in a civil manner discuss whether the LDS church fits the criteria of a Christian church. All of us have our own personal opinions about many issues, including religion and politics. But, how many of us know what the facts say?
My hope is we can discuss our opinions, the evidence, speculation and myths and learn as we have a civil, rational and reasonable debate. After all, isn't this why we have a Religious Debate Forum? To share what we think, feel, believe and know about Religion.
I would also like to add, if you have info that may be useful or applicable please post it so we all can enjoy or learn it (references and quotes are always helpful and encouraged).
Thanks! And, tell us all what you think.

I would say yes, they are Christian.

 

[Sonny]

[QUOTE="Katzpur said,
Of course they were credible. You don't have to agree with their beliefs or philosophies, but they were all respected members of the community and would have been seen as credible witnesses to their peers. [/Quote]
Didn't you just quote a lengthy comment from the LDS church about isolated comments by individuals as not being taken seriously or as doctrinal fact? But here you are now saying it's ok to believe them. Katzpur, none of us can have it both ways- as you are now trying to do. We can't pick and choose which parts are true (the ones we like) and which parts are untrue (the ones we don't like or ones that makes our church look bad). Be careful what you assert for someone will catch it if we double-dealing, as you just did.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Kirran]

[QUOTE="Katzpur said,
Of course they were credible. You don't have to agree with their beliefs or philosophies, but they were all respected members of the community and would have been seen as credible witnesses to their peers.
Didn't you just quote a lengthy comment from the LDS church about isolated comments by individuals as not being taken seriously or as doctrinal fact? But here you are now saying it's ok to believe them. Katzpur, none of us can have it both ways- as you are now trying to do. We can't pick and choose which parts are true (the ones we like) and which parts are untrue (the ones we don't like or ones that makes our church look bad). Be careful what you assert for someone will catch it if we double-dealing, as you just did.

Is it about what's true, or about what's Christian?

Also, when you quote, just click Reply and then write below the text.

 

[omega2xx]

My sole purpose in starting this Thread is to openly, honestly and in a civil manner discuss whether the LDS church fits the criteria of a Christian church. All of us have our own personal opinions about many issues, including religion and politics. But, how many of us know what the facts say?
My hope is we can discuss our opinions, the evidence, speculation and myths and learn as we have a civil, rational and reasonable debate. After all, isn't this why we have a Religious Debate Forum? To share what we think, feel, believe and know about Religion.
I would also like to add, if you have info that may be useful or applicable please post it so we all can enjoy or learn it (references and quotes are always helpful and encouraged).
Thanks! And, tell us all what you think.

IMO any denomination that rejects the Trinity, is questionable. Also they give the BOM more authority than the they do the Bible. Also continue to give credence to some of the false prophets.

They have a lot of things against them but I am not going to judge them, They will answer to God, not to me.

Here are some teachings I have problem with:
--By obedience and Jesus attained to the pinnacle of intelligence which ranked Him as A God,,,
--Jesus was aided in the work of creation by Michael(or Adam), Enoch, Noah...Joseph
Smith and others.
--God is not omnipresent.
--God has a body of flesh and bones.
--Adam fell that men might be and men are, that they might have joy.

Not one of those beliefs do they proved a Bible reference.

 

[Katzpur]

IMO any denomination that rejects the Trinity, is questionable.

Yes, to you. But we're in good company, because none of Christ's Apostles ever spoke of a Trinity. Perhaps they're questionable, too.

Also they give the BOM more authority than the they do the Bible.

No. We see them as equal, because we see them both as coming from the same source.

Also continue to give credence to some of the false prophets.

No, we don't. The fact that you may see them as false doesn't mean they are.

They have a lot of things against them but I am not going to judge them, They will answer to God, not to me.

That's right, and we're looking forward to that day.

 

[Sonny]

I don't think one can, that's the point. It's a social identity, I don't think any Christian has the right to tell someone else they're not Christian when they understand themselves to be so.

Lemma see if I understand your logic. If I say I am Donald J. Trump I can walk into the Oval Office and be the POTUS. Is that about right? In your mind no one "has the right" to tell me I am not DJT. Do you realize how that sounds? Not all who say they are can be Christians. The vast differences in beliefs, alone, prove that. God would have to be a madman or monster, let alone not God, to act so crazy. Christianity teaches there is only one God. Mormonism (since this is a Thread about both) teaches there could be/probably are Trillions of God's. There is no way to close the gap on that one doctrine, let alone the dozens (or, hundreds) of others that differ just as much.

 

[Kirran]

Lemma see if I understand your logic. If I say I am Donald J. Trump I can walk into the Oval Office and be the POTUS. Is that about right? In your mind no one "has the right" to tell me I am not DJT. Do you realize how that sounds? Not all who say they are can be Christians. The vast differences in beliefs, alone, prove that. God would have to be a madman or monster, let alone not God, to act so crazy. Christianity teaches there is only one God. Mormonism (since this is a Thread about both) teaches there could be/probably are Trillions of God's. There is no way to close the gap on that one doctrine, let alone the dozens (or, hundreds) of others that differ just as much.

I suspect you know that this holds little water, but are attempting to discredit Mormonism in favour of your version of "the Truth". Most Christ-like.

Donald Trump is not a social identity. That is a particular individual. Do I have to say that?

You say Christianity teaches X and therefore those who don't believe X aren't Christians. Someone else says Christianity teaches Y and therefore those who don't believe Y aren't Christians. The only fair way of doing this is accepting all those who call themselves Christians as Christians, lest you claim some unique divine authority to discern the "true doctrine".

 

[omega2xx]

Yes, to you. But we're in good company, because none of Christ's Apostles ever spoke of a Trinity. Perhaps they're questionable, too.<<

Surely you don't think Jesus addressed every truth in the Bible. l The doctrine of the Trinity starts with the first word for deity in the Bible--God, Elohim. Elohim is a singular owith a plural ending, and the "us" and "our" in Gen 1:26 is not angels, it is Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and J. Smith was not there helping God.

No. We see them as equal, because we see them both as coming from the same source.

Give me a Bible reference foe that source. God is eternal, He has no source.

No, we don't. The fact that you may see them as false doesn't mean they are.

That's right, and we're looking forward to that day.

If you don't backquote, I have no idea what you are talking about.