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Why does God hide himself?

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
It tells you I think it is factually correct. Nobody speaks for everybody.

Regardless, while you are certainly entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts. Your beliefs are either objectively true or they are not. How your beliefs make you feel is irrelevant.

I agree with that statement. You must objectively consider the evidence and argumentation from all sides.

Unfortunately, theists have no rational arguments or objective evidence.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Regardless, while you are certainly entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts.
we agree

Your beliefs are either objectively true or they are not.
I believe they are objectively true or they wouldn't be my beliefs.
How your beliefs make you feel is irrelevant.
How a person feels is very relevant to that person but feelings should not sway our objective consideration. I want to know the truth, not what makes me feel good.

Unfortunately, theists have no rational arguments or objective evidence.
I believe we certainly do or I wouldn't be a theist (pantheist actually) from objective consideration.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Firstly, the Quran is the Word of God in Islam.
Hadiths are not.
Hadith and the Corruption of the great religion of Islam | Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)

Here are some quotes from the the Quran regarding hadiths.

Sura 31:6

31: 6 Among the people, there are those who accept baseless hadiths to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and they take it as entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.

Sura 45:6

45: 6 These are God's signs that We recite to you with truth. So, in which hadith, after God and His signs, do they acknowledge?* 45: 7 Woe to every sinful fabricator.

Sura 39:23

39: 23 God has sent down the best hadith, a book that is consistent, relating/ contrasting/ repeating.

Next, the law of Battle established in Medina only permitted defensive warfare. This was not included in your post? May I ask why as it throws an entire new light on the subject.

Sura 2:190

2: 190 And fight for the religion of GOD against those who fight against you; but transgress not by attacking them first, for GOD loveth not the transgressors.

George Sale

2:190 And fight for the cause of God against those who fight against you: but commit not the injustice of attacking them first: God loveth not such injustice:

J M Rodwell

2:190 Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love aggressors.

N J Dawood


2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

Muhammad never killed anyone. The Quran speaks for His character, hadiths do not.

Sura 53:1

BY the star, when it setteth; your companion Mohammed erreth not; nor is he led astray: neither doth he speak of his own will.

Sura 33:21

Ye have in the apostle of GOD an excellent example, unto him who hopeth in GOD, and the last day, and remembereth GOD frequently.

Sura 68:4

4. And you are of a great moral character.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Very interesting story. The person who decided to seek answers and study scripture more deeply becomes an agnostic, where the person who just ignores the questions remains a Christian.

It wasn't meant to be a story, but Ben's video is about revelation. It has different parts of interest for Christians, Christians who have doubt, non-believers and those who aren't sure.

I don't think I'm ignoring the question, but my point is one has to take the leap of faith for themselves. One has to find God for themselves. All the non-believers want proof, but there is none.

If you want a story, then here's mine. If God came to Earth, then people would not believe He was God at first. He would have to inflict pain and suffering (my opinion) in order for people to believe. Once, everyone accepted Him, then they would try to curry His favor and we would not have free will anymore. Everyone would have to do what God said. This isn't what God intended.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
It goes beyond that, though. What you experience from god or christ is the same thing I experience from my family in spirit and the same a hindu experience from shiva.

Our sources are different, yes. We can talk about our differences; but, how is your experience-mental and physical reaction- different than mine? Name an attribute about the christian experience that no other person can experience unless he or she is christian.​

PopeaDope has to go beyond just asking if he wants to know the christian god. Shiva could answer him for all he knows. I talked to jesus once and he pointed to his father and said "duh, I'm not my dad, girl." (No pun). So, it goes beyond asking. It's a choice to get to know someone. It's a building and growing relationship that should not be one sided. If you do not build your relationship with god, you'd be asking (and repenting) your whole life.

God goes beyond that. We develop a relationship with life and how we live it and interpret it. Outside of that, how is the christian's experience different than anyone else's (outside of sources)?​

>>"It goes beyond that, though." "What you experience from god or christ is the same thing I experience from my family in spirit and the same a hindu experience from shiva." ... "God goes beyond that. We develop a relationship with life and how we live it and interpret it. Outside of that, how is the christian's experience different than anyone else's (outside of sources)?"<<

I'm not sure what your point is. It goes all over the place. I don't know about Hinduism nor Shiva. I don't know what you experience with your family.

Let's stick with PopeADope.

Here is what he said to me,

PopeADope said:
I ask God to reveal himself every day...the things he reveals, many Christians would tell me is from the Devil...so, I simply don't know

What else do you want PopeADope to do?

I wanted him to be sincere and ask God to reveal Himself like Ben said at the end. Since it seems to work negatively for PopeADope, there is something not right. I don't know him well enough to say what that is if he truly is being sincere.
 
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interminable

منتظر
Regardless, while you are certainly entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts. Your beliefs are either objectively true or they are not. How your beliefs make you feel is irrelevant.



Unfortunately, theists have no rational arguments or objective evidence.
We don't have rational arguments or u don't consider them rational??

If causality isn't rational so what's rational?
I saw how atheists evade to answer my questions. Unfortunately since they have no scruple they reject everything easily
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
So, God must have a reason for hiding himself and hiding the truth. A lot will say, the truth isn't hidden, just read the Bible and the Koran. I've read them both, and the truth is hidden. Both books contain verses that say the opposite of what other verses say, leading people to opposite conclusions. Much of the Bible is hyperbole, poetry, parable, allegory, and symbolic, leading to God only knows how many conflicting interpretations. It simply isn't clear. The Koran severely contradicts itself. I'd be happy to provide a list of verses from the Koran that justify ISIS atrocities.

Even if the Bible and Koran contained clear instruction that didn't contradict itself, that still isn't enough. Everyone is different. Many of us need more than a book. We need clear instruction on what to do personally with our lives.

If God would just leave us clear messages every now and then, imagine how much good it would do. Imagine if every heretic heard the voice of God correcting them and telling them their errors. There wouldn't be so much division and confusion.

How many atheists would still be atheist if God was speaking clear messages to them and telling them what to do with their lives? Even if God just left a message in the sky once every 10 years, do you think even 1% of the world's population would still be atheist? Clearly God wants there to be Atheists.

I pray every day that God would tell me what to do with my time and my life because I simply don't know. I'd like to be doing with my time, what he/she wants me to do with my time. No matter how much I pray for those instructions, I don't get them. How is that benefiting me for God to refuse to give those instructions? If it does no good, and in fact does harm to the world, why does God do it?

What good does God hiding himself/herself do our world? If it doesn't do any good, then why does he/she do it?

You havent read them both.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
What clear words one wants? And what one would do if people find fault with such words?
Please
Regards
Clear answers to my questions about God's will so that I can do Gods will...he has a plan. I want to cooperate with his plan and feel I'm failing, largely because I'm confused about what He is asking me to do
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Clear answers to my questions about God's will so that I can do Gods will...he has a plan. I want to cooperate with his plan and feel I'm failing, largely because I'm confused about what He is asking me to do

God's Will is clear and His Plan is clear.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Then show me where contradict another verse. I know the bible, but I ask from the Quran.
You know there are words of peace in the Koran. I have shown you where there are also calls to violence, hate, and fantasies of torturing, mutilating, and murdering people
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
You know there are words of peace in the Koran. I have shown you where there are also calls to violence, hate, and fantasies of torturing, mutilating, and murdering people

There is none like that unless its a breaking of a treaty, persecution and they call for rescue etc. None. If you have read the Quran from cover to cover you will see this.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
There is none like that unless its a breaking of a treaty, persecution and they call for rescue etc. None. If you have read the Quran from cover to cover you will see this.
so, you can show me in the Koran where it explains that all these calls to violence and hate are towards violations of a treaty or persecution? The Koran clarifies that all of these verses are specifically targeting only those people?? This is pure and obvious hatred, for it doesn't just fantasize about killing nonmuslims, but also torturing, humiliating, and mutilating them. The Koran preaches pure hatred and bigotry in it's ugliest forms!:

Quran (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”

Quran (3:56) – “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”

Quran (3:151) – “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”.


Quran (4:89) – “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

Quran (4:95) – “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-” It appears this passage criticizes “peaceful” Muslims.

Quran (4:104) – “And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain…”

Quran (5:33) – “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”


Quran (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

Quran (8:15) – “O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey’s end.”

Quran (8:59-60) – “And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah’s Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape.

Quran (8:65) – “O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight…”

Quran (9:5) – “So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.”

Quran (9:14) – “Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace…” Once again, the way Allah wishes to punnish them is by "your hands".

Quran (9:123) – “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.”


Quran (33:60-62) – “If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while.

Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.” This passage sanctions the slaughter (rendered “merciless” and “horrible murder” in other translations)

Quran (47:3-4) – “Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similtudes. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,” Those who reject Allah are to be subdued in battle."

Quran (47:35) – “Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost

Quran (48:29) – “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves”
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
There is none like that unless its a breaking of a treaty, persecution and they call for rescue etc. None. If you have read the Quran from cover to cover you will see this.

100% correct and true. I fully agree with you. Take the Quran out of context and you can create what you want but in context, it only teaches good.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
In other word

>>"It goes beyond that, though." "What you experience from god or christ is the same thing I experience from my family in spirit and the same a hindu experience from shiva." ... "God goes beyond that. We develop a relationship with life and how we live it and interpret it. Outside of that, how is the christian's experience different than anyone else's (outside of sources)?"<<

I'm not sure what your point is. It goes all over the place. I don't know about Hinduism nor Shiva. I don't know what you experience with your family.

@PopeADope I wouldn't think you'd need to ask god to reveal himself to you if you already have had experiences that revealed god to you and the god you know from your experiences and not anyone else's.

In that respect, James, the point is it goes beyond just asking god to reveal himself. God revealed himself to many many many people who are not christians yet we are all human and experience-physically and mentally-the same experiences that our neighbor does.

Experiences=mentally and physically (all of us our humans) not external environment and environmental influence.

With that in mind, pope, try not to get pointed at one particular religion or path if you describe god broadly to where you can say that he is the creator and go from there... (Replying to your other post)
 
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