Is "salvation" possible under the Law?

[Ben Avraham]

A short bunny trail, but Jesus shorted it down to "The Law for Dummies" by reducing the 'Law and Prophets' to two Laws ... both of which he quoted from the OT.
If you obey the two, you will not run afoul of the Ten (as a follower of Jesus) ... the Nation under the whole law of Moses, has way more than 10 rules ... Abraham didn't even have the Ten.

If you are right on what you say, Jesus showed a weird way to love his neighbor as he loved himself by braking the Golden Rule 15 times only in the text of Mat. 23:13-33 when he charged his neighbors, the Jewish authorities with being hypocrites and brood of vipers. Do you think he would have liked to be addressed as hypocrite and brood of vipers? Obviously not. So, Jesus became a sinner just as you and I are.

 

[Ben Avraham]

That had nothing to do with that comment.
Technically, the 'salvation' actually isn't from that. That is how people get confused, the NT is not inferring that there are no laws/rules, however, they differ from Judaism, and salvation is spoken of in a manner that does not always include the rules, that ///also could effect salvation.

There is no salvation without obedience to the laws; especially God's Law. Jesus himself made that very clear when he warned us to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

 

[Ben Avraham]

Yes. Matthew did the same thing when he called Jesus the "Lord of the Sabbath". That's what early-Christianity was all about- fabricating a religious basis for divorcing oneself from the many Jewish Laws

Every one is the lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is for man, not man for the Sabbath. We all have Freewill. We don't obey as a robot but because we have chosen to obey.

 

[Ben Avraham]

There's no difference between two and a hundred.

Yes, there is. Two are only two while a hundred is two times fifty.

 

[Tumah]

Every one is the lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is for man, not man for the Sabbath. We all have Freewill. We don't obey as a robot but because we have chosen to obey.

Where does it say "the Sabbath is for man"? I don't have that in my Tanach. Mine tells me that G-d commands me to keep the Sabbath. There doesn't seem to be any indication that I become the lord of the Sabbath there. The lord of myself perhaps. But I have no control over the Sabbath.

Yes, there is. Two are only two while a hundred is two times fifty.

https://funnyjoke.wordpress.com/2006/12/16/technically-correct-but-a-completely-useless-answer/

 

[Ben Avraham]

Where does it say "the Sabbath is for man"? I don't have that in my Tanach. Mine tells me that G-d commands me to keep the Sabbath. There doesn't seem to be any indication that I become the lord of the Sabbath there. The lord of myself perhaps. But I have no control over the Sabbath.

https://funnyjoke.wordpress.com/2006/12/16/technically-correct-but-a-completely-useless-answer/

Divine Logic says so. The Lord commands us all to obey His Law but He does not force us to obey it . He knows we have Freewill. Obedience must come from the heart as a result of love for HaShem Who did not create us qua robots. (Deuteronomy 30:19,20) If you feel that you don't have any choice whether to obey or not to obey the commandment to observe the Sabbath, it is probably because you have chosen to behave as a robot.

 

[Tumah]

Divine Logic says so. The Lord commands us all to obey His Law but He does not force us to obey it . He knows we have Freewill. Obedience must come from the heart as a result of love for HaShem Who did not create us qua robots. (Deuteronomy 30:19,20) If you feel that you don't have any choice whether to obey or not to obey the commandment to observe the Sabbath, it is probably because you have chosen to behave as a robot.

Thank you for explaining what it means to be the "lord of oneself". However, the subject was you trying to rationalize Matthew's statement about man being the "lord of the Sabbath" and how that doesn't negate the Law of keeping the Sabbath.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Thank you for explaining what it means to be the "lord of oneself". However, the subject was you trying to rationalize Matthew's statement about man being the "lord of the Sabbath" and how that doesn't negate the Law of keeping the Sabbath.

I thought you knew by now that I am not a Christian.

 

[CG Didymus]

No you don't. We have something called repentance. Its mentioned numerous times throughout Tanach. Perfection is not expected nor required.

This is something that makes this question so hard for Christians to answer. Does a repentant Jew get "saved"? Does a non-repentant "Christian" get saved? Are any Christians capable of ever repenting completely? No. So regardless of them being perfect, they think of themselves as saved. Yet, they expect a Jew to have to keep all the Laws perfectly? I don't think so. So then God "saves" imperfect people that do their best to obey his Commands and that try and repent as best they can? If He's doing it for Christians, then why not for Jews?

Beyond that, why not salvation for Hindus or Buddhists and those of other religions that are trying their best to do good? I don't think Jews condemn them for having been born into the "wrong" religion, so why do Christians? I'm sure it's mostly because of the one verse that says "Jesus" is the only way. Which is funny, because Christians believe there is no other name under heaven but "Jesus". But what was Jesus' name when He was here on Earth? Was it some Hebrew or Aramaic name? Why don't Christians like to use that name? That's His real name isn't it? But I'm sure they believe the name "Jesus" is close enough.

 

[Tumah]

This is something that makes this question so hard for Christians to answer. Does a repentant Jew get "saved"? Does a non-repentant "Christian" get saved? Are any Christians capable of ever repenting completely? No. So regardless of them being perfect, they think of themselves as saved. Yet, they expect a Jew to have to keep all the Laws perfectly? I don't think so. So then God "saves" imperfect people that do their best to obey his Commands and that try and repent as best they can? If He's doing it for Christians, then why not for Jews?

Beyond that, why not salvation for Hindus or Buddhists and those of other religions that are trying their best to do good? I don't think Jews condemn them for having been born into the "wrong" religion, so why do Christians? I'm sure it's mostly because of the one verse that says "Jesus" is the only way. Which is funny, because Christians believe there is no other name under heaven but "Jesus". But what was Jesus' name when He was here on Earth? Was it some Hebrew or Aramaic name? Why don't Christians like to use that name? That's His real name isn't it? But I'm sure they believe the name "Jesus" is close enough.

I think the importance of being "saved" really only comes to the fore in Christianity. For us it lacks that severity because we don't believe Hell is eternal. You spend your time there and then you move on to Heaven. If you weren't able to repent for every sin you ever did, its not as big a deal: you'll pay your dues and you'll move on up anyway to get rewarded for the good you did. Its only in Christianity where eternal suffering is at stake that being "saved" takes on that intensity.

 

[metis]

I think the importance of being "saved" really only comes to the fore in Christianity. .

Hey, I do want to be saved...



from those who want to save me.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think the importance of being "saved" really only comes to the fore in Christianity. For us it lacks that severity because we don't believe Hell is eternal. You spend your time there and then you move on to Heaven. If you weren't able to repent for every sin you ever did, its not as big a deal: you'll pay your dues and you'll move on up anyway to get rewarded for the good you did. Its only in Christianity where eternal suffering is at stake that being "saved" takes on that intensity.

That is what is so strange. If getting "saved" is so important, why didn't God mention it in the Jewish Bible? Along with all the other Christian things like hell and the devil?

But the big difficulty with the Christian way of looking at being "saved" is also what they have to do to the Law. So just in case a Christian reads this post... Can you tell me if a saved person needs to obey God? I would have to think that the answer has to be "yes". Then what does a Christian do? They have to figure out what God's commands are. And, since they don't want to follow God's Laws given to the Jews, what are God's Laws given to the Christians? So, again, if a "Christian" doesn't keep the Laws given to them, are they truly "saved"?

 

[Ben Avraham]

Is Salvation Possible Under the Law?

Rather under the Law is salvation possible. Jesus himself in his parable of the Richman and Lazarus said, we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law to escape hell-fire. (Luke 16:29-31)

 

[savagewind]

Is Salvation Possible Under the Law?

Rather under the Law is salvation possible. Jesus himself in his parable of the Richman and Lazarus said, we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law to escape hell-fire. (Luke 16:29-31)

It doesn't say obey. It says listen. To listen is to learn. To listen does not mean to obey.

 

[Ben Avraham]

It doesn't say obey. It says listen. To listen is to learn. To listen does not mean to obey.

That does really sound funny! Think of the "Shema Israel..." in Deuteronomy 6:4. According to your understanding, the meaning of the text must be: Listen O Israel but you don't have to believe that our God is One and the Only God. As far as I am concerned, Jesus meant by "listening to "Moses" aka the Law" to obey. (Luke 16:29-31)

 

[savagewind]

That does really sound funny! Think of the "Shema Israel..." in Deuteronomy 6:4. According to your understanding, the meaning of the text must be: Listen O Israel but you don't have to believe that our God is One and the Only God. As far as I am concerned, Jesus meant by "listening to "Moses" aka the Law" to obey. (Luke 16:29-31)

Do you know what obey means?

comply with the command, direction, or request of (a person or a law); submit to the authority of.
Maybe you do not know what comply means. act in accordance with a wish or command.

act? behave in the way specified.

behave. act or conduct oneself in a specified way, especially toward others.

To believe is different than to obey, comply, act, behave. I am sure.

Do you know what I am talking about?

 

[Ben Avraham]

Do you know what obey means?

comply with the command, direction, or request of (a person or a law); submit to the authority of.
Maybe you do not know what comply means. act in accordance with a wish or command.

act? behave in the way specified.

behave. act or conduct oneself in a specified way, especially toward others.

To believe is different than to obey, comply, act, behave. I am sure.

Do you know what I am talking about?

Yes, about what Jesus had in mind when he said to listen to "Moses" aka the Law, which means not to forget to obey the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

 

[savagewind]

Yes, about what Jesus had in mind when he said to listen to "Moses" aka the Law, which means not to forget to obey the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

Define law.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Define law.

Law by definition was and still is God's provisional act of grace to Mankind so that we all can live in society and no longer under the law of the jungle.

 

[savagewind]

Law by definition was and still is God's provisional act of grace to Mankind so that we all can live in society and no longer under the law of the jungle.

Yes, I know that. But, that is what law does. What is it?
Is it a set of commands and ordinances?

If it is just what you say, I agree with you. If it is a written code of conduct, I don't agree with you.