Is "salvation" possible under the Law?

[Ben Avraham]

You have circumcision, Mikvah etc etc. Some Jews have so many rules you probably couldn't even remember them all.

and with no salvific effect? no thanks

Salvific effects! To use the promise of salvation in order to behave well is no different from treat-rewards promised to a dog to act funny. There is no other way to achieve salvation of the troubles of life but through obedience of the Law. Obey the Law and I guarantee you to be saved from a lot of problems as a result of transgressions of the Law.

 

[Ben Avraham]

You have circumcision, Mikvah etc etc. Some Jews have so many rules you probably couldn't even remember them all.

and with no salvific effect? no thanks

What do you care that the Jews have their ritual laws? These are for them, not for you. Stick to the Decalogue which is for all, Jews and Gentiles. There is no salvific effect in ritual laws.

 

[Tumah]

What do you care that the Jews have their ritual laws? These are for them, not for you. Stick to the Decalogue which is for all, Jews and Gentiles. There is no salvific effect in ritual laws.

The Ten Commandments are definitely not for all. They were given to the Jews, not to all. They were broken because of a sin the Jews did, not because what all did. They were returned because of the prayer of Jews, not all. The Ten Commandments are definitely not for all.

 

[Tumah]

No, he has not. In Judaism it is called Pichuach Nephesh. But he still has to live in a city of refuge until the High Priest passes away. To live in a city of refuge would be almost the same as to move into a new residence. One would have the whole city to move around; only not outside the walls. However, if three eyewitnesses could verify his testimony, he could go free and be legally protected by the authorities.

You just love pulling stuff out of the air. Its "Pikuach" Not "Pichuach".
Three witnesses are not required to verify his claim. Two witnesses are enough.
There is no enough information in the case you were given whether or not he'd be liable for having killed the person.

 

[Tumah]

You have circumcision, Mikvah etc etc. Some Jews have so many rules you probably couldn't even remember them all.

We remember them all.

and with no salvific effect? no thanks

Repentance is the one that has the salvic effect.

 

[Tumah]

But you have to obey every law all the time. You must be perfect. No one has achieved that but Christ.

No you don't. We have something called repentance. Its mentioned numerous times throughout Tanach. Perfection is not expected nor required.

 

[savagewind]

Are you sure! What about if I prove to you that there is salvation, what are you going to do? Never mind! The Law says, "Thou shall not commit murder." In some States in America, murder is punishable by death. However, if you obey the Law you'll be saved from that death penalty. Have I proved salvation as a result of obeying the Law or have I not?

Maybe you have never heard of an innocent person who is accused of murder, found guilty and executed for something he never did. How do you explain those?

 

[savagewind]

We remember them all.

I wonder who "we" is?

I wonder if it can be true that all Jews know all the laws like you say "we" remember them all?

The reason why I say so is that I know it is a fact that not all Christians know what it is supposed that all Christians should know and remember. I suspect very few do, I shall include myself.

I think that from my point of view, there is no we and in fact, I find it odd that when some people talk about the country that they live in they say us or we.

Are all Jews so very united and knowledgeable that you can honestly say, "we remember them all"?

Who is we?

 

[atpollard]

No you don't. We have something called repentance. Its mentioned numerous times throughout Tanach. Perfection is not expected nor required.

Personal or national?
It is an honest question because understanding the Hebrew requires an subtle understanding of the language and context that I lack.
From the English translations and examples presented in Scripture, individual punishments seem fairly certain, while national repentance and forgiveness seems common.
Are there verses and examples of personal repentance and forgiveness?

[David and Bathsheba comes to mind, but the child still died.]

 

[Tumah]

Personal or national?
It is an honest question because understanding the Hebrew requires an subtle understanding of the language and context that I lack.
From the English translations and examples presented in Scripture, individual punishments seem fairly certain, while national repentance and forgiveness seems common.
Are there verses and examples of personal repentance and forgiveness?

[David and Bathsheba comes to mind, but the child still died.]

I don't think you could split personal from national repentance without impinging on G-d's justice.

David is actually a good example. If you look at the reason Nathan gives for the death of David's son, its different than what David repented for. In other words, David didn't repent for the issue that Nathan mentioned, his repentance only covered his actions, not the effect of it in the eyes of the nations. That sin remained and was punished for in the death of his son.

There's also Cain. His original punishment was to be a wanderer, but after his repentance, he settled in Nod.

There are some other examples that only show up in Jewish Midrash about Adam, Reuben and Hezekiah off the top of my head. But that's not going to help here.

 

[Tumah]

I wonder who "we" is?

I wonder if it can be true that all Jews know all the laws like you say "we" remember them all?

The reason why I say so is that I know it is a fact that not all Christians know what it is supposed that all Christians should know and remember. I suspect very few do, I shall include myself.

I think that from my point of view, there is no we and in fact, I find it odd that when some people talk about the country that they live in they say us or we.

Are all Jews so very united and knowledgeable that you can honestly say, "we remember them all"?

Who is we?

Go back and look what I was responding to.

Some Jews have so many rules you probably couldn't even remember them all.​

He wasn't talking about all Jews. Presumably he was talking about Orthodox Jews. Not all Jews who call themselves Orthodox are committed to following the Law. But the ones that are committed to following the Law study the Laws so that we can apply it.

 

[Desert Snake]

What do you care that the Jews have their ritual laws? These are for them, not for you. Stick to the Decalogue which is for all, Jews and Gentiles. There is no salvific effect in ritual laws.

This is hilarious. You are the one presenting argument after argument decrying the Christian religion and beliefs.

 

[Ben Avraham]

This is hilarious. You are the one presenting argument after argument decrying the Christian religion and beliefs.

What is hilarious about what I said above? Do you disagree that the Decalogue is for the Gentiles too?

 

[Ben Avraham]

Maybe you have never heard of an innocent person who is accused of murder, found guilty and executed for something he never did. How do you explain those?

Blunders of the human mind.

 

[Ben Avraham]

You just love pulling stuff out of the air. Its "Pikuach" Not "Pichuach".
Three witnesses are not required to verify his claim. Two witnesses are enough.
There is no enough information in the case you were given whether or not he'd be liable for having killed the person.

Two witnesses are enough! How about three? Yoter tov! And four? Metzuyan! Okay, fiive? Lo tzarich yoter!

 

[Ben Avraham]

The Ten Commandments are definitely not for all. They were given to the Jews, not to all. They were broken because of a sin the Jews did, not because what all did. They were returned because of the prayer of Jews, not all. The Ten Commandments are definitely not for all.

Now, I understand why Paul released himself from the Law. (Romans 7:6) He became a Christian and got rid of the Law. Does it make sense to you?

 

[Tumah]

Two witnesses are enough! How about three? Yoter tov! And four? Metzuyan! Okay, fiive? Lo tzarich yoter!

There's no difference between two and a hundred.

 

[Tumah]

Now, I understand why Paul released himself from the Law. (Romans 7:6) He became a Christian and got rid of the Law. Does it make sense to you?

Yes. Matthew did the same thing when he called Jesus the "Lord of the Sabbath". That's what early-Christianity was all about- fabricating a religious basis for divorcing oneself from the many Jewish Laws

 

[Desert Snake]

What is hilarious about what I said above? Do you disagree that the Decalogue is for the Gentiles too?

That had nothing to do with that comment.
Technically, the 'salvation' actually isn't from that. That is how people get confused, the NT is not inferring that there are no laws/rules, however, they differ from Judaism, and salvation is spoken of in a manner that does not always include the rules, that ///also could effect salvation.

 

[atpollard]

Do you disagree that the Decalogue is for the Gentiles too?

A short bunny trail, but Jesus shorted it down to "The Law for Dummies" by reducing the 'Law and Prophets' to two Laws ... both of which he quoted from the OT.
If you obey the two, you will not run afoul of the Ten (as a follower of Jesus) ... the Nation under the whole law of Moses, has way more than 10 rules ... Abraham didn't even have the Ten.