Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

[Yoshua]

What is "freedom" Yoshua? Freedom to put whatever spin you like on God's word? Freedom to worship a different god to the one Jesus taught us about?

There are so many claiming to be the "faithful slave" mentioned in Matthew 24:45, but Jesus shrouded his identity in mystery by framing his existence in a question....
“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?"

So who is he? "He" is appointed by Jesus himself and he has the responsibility to "feed" Christ's entire household their "food at the proper time".

He is the only one assigned to "feed" us. We are not free to eat from other tables nor are we told to feed ourselves....so who is he to you?

Hi Deeje,

Freedom is to live with Christ, and not tied up to an organization or society. How do you come up with different god? I don't worship a different god.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Actually its the Watchtower that is our main focus for examining God's word. If you look at the front cover it says..."Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom".
It is like today's 'newspaper' to us. We don't treat our literature like scripture, though some like to imagine that we do.

Hi Deeje,

So, will you directly (go straight) focus on the Scripture without the Watchtower?

Thanks

 

[james2ko]

I think they are doing a number on Jehovah God. They have placed their governing body on God's throne

Jesus told the Pharisees something similar. The resemblance between the Pharisees and most JW's is striking. I say most because I've met one or two that were not like the rest. Just like there were a few Pharisees that were not like the rest.

Resentment?I do not know any other group who says that to please Jehovah I must believe the Bible their way.* I do not pick on people I do not know. * and then they change it. Say what? No! I am not going to zig-zag with them. They warn me.....I warn them.

Perhaps you are exhibiting righteous resentment. If righteous anger exists, then we can conclude righteous resentment does also.

@james2ko Who else believes that Jehovah will forsake me for not siding with a certain human or a certain group? Do you believe that too? Do you believe that people who are not of the church of James are lost? Jehovah's Witnesses believe and teach that if you do not recognize them as the true religion, you will be destroyed. Now, it seems, they might have changed their minds. Well?

Absolutely not. Our God can work with and in whomever He wants. Jesus made that very clear by allowing "another" group to use His name to drive out demons.

​

 

[Deeje]

Hi Deeje,

Freedom is to live with Christ, and not tied up to an organization or society.

Freedom is the God-given ability to choose our own course. To serve our God by imitating his precious son.
Jesus told us that the truth would "set us free".....what is it setting us free from do you think?

As for being "tied up to an organization or society", can you tell me when God's people were not a collective (organized into a body of people who share the same faith).
Just as God's "nation" meant the whole brotherhood of Israel, (whose beliefs were set by God and no deviation was permissible) so Christianity is the whole brotherhood of Christ's followers as a collective in the world (all were bound by the same teaching too. 2 John 9-11) Christianity was never about believing whatever you like. (1 Corinthians 1:10)
If you are not part of that united brotherhood, related by all beliefs in common, then you are outside of it.
Christendom is fragmented by their disunited beliefs despite holding some core doctrines in common, but all of these core doctrines originated from outside of Christianity. Not one of them is built on the solid foundation of scripture.

How do you come up with different god? I don't worship a different god.

Who is the God of Jesus Christ even now? (Revelation 3:12) To whom did he pray? (Matthew 6:9) Whose worship did he promote? (Philippians 2:11)
To say that you worship the same God as I do is not true. The God I worship is the God of Israel...the God and Father of Jesus Christ. He is not a split personality, nor did he ever solicit worship for himself. He is not an equal deity with the Father and the holy spirit, but the Father of all including his son.

When Jesus prayed the Lord's Prayer he began by saying..."OUR Father who art in heaven"...meaning that he included himself in the "our".
He also said to "hallow" or sanctify his Father's name....yet we rarely hear mention of it in the churches or see it in their Bibles. (Psalm 83:18 KJV)
He asked us to pray for God's Kingdom to "come" and for God's will to be "done on earth as it is in heaven"....yet Christendom teaches for the most part that all Christians go to heaven. (No one seems to know what for.) So how is God's will to be done on earth if everyone goes to heaven?

I am afraid that you and I do not worship the same God at all.

There is no resemblance.

 

[Deeje]

Hi Deeje,

So, will you directly (go straight) focus on the Scripture without the Watchtower?

Thanks

If you wish to discuss just scripture, say the word......I am happy to focus on scripture, as you may have noticed, my posts are always backed up by scripture.

The Watchtower is a Bible Society that prints our Bibles and Bible-based literature. I am not a representative of the Watchtower...I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I am more than happy to speak directly from the Bible on any topic you choose.

John 17:15-18:
“I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth. 18 Just as you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world"

 

[james2ko]

James, you might find the following website interesting.... I did, because of the conclusions they reached and it's not connected to JW's at all, that I'm aware of. (I must say, though, I don't agree with all of their understandings, but their use of the Scriptures, and trying to find the harmony between them, along with their links to other articles, is compelling):

http://www.2001translation.com/Holy_Spirit.html

1. More commentary on the article you posted. The author states:

“So, was the Holy Breath that arrived on Pentecost a person, as some claim? Well, it is referred to in the Bible using the personal pronoun, he, so we don't know. “​

We do know. The bible is explicit on His identity—2 Corinthians 3:17. I read on some blog one JW desperately trying to explain away the passage’s clear reading by saying the passage should read, “The Lord is “a” spirit. When the definite article “to” is in every Greek manuscript.

“What we do know is that it was something different from the Holy Breath that gave powers to faithful men earlier, and that it was given a title, 'the Advocate'”

The Faithful men earlier the author refers to are those in the OT who received the spirit. He somehow believes the holy spirit in the OT was different than the one in the NT. Perhaps he meant the manifestations of the spirit were different. But the spirit was the same.

What Happened to 'the Gifts?'

2. It is noteworthy that we no longer read of Christians manifesting the Gifts of God's Breath after the First Century. So it appears as though, after the deaths of all the Apostles, the Gifts just stopped. Why? Well, perhaps Paul's words found at 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 can shed some light on the matter. For there we read: 'However, the [gift of] prophesying will be done away with, the [gift of] speaking in [foreign] languages will stop, and the [gift of miraculous] knowledge will be done away with. Because, now we only have partial knowledge and we only prophesy partially. But when the perfect thing arrives, the partial thing will be done away with.'

3. Like the JW’s, the author asserts the gifts of the spirit in 1 Co 12 were eliminated upon the Apostles’ death. He uses 1 co 13:8-10 as proof text:

1Co 13:8-10 Prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever! 9 Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture! 10 But when full understanding comes, these partial things will become useless. (NLT)​

In verse 9, Paul states the gifits of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge will become useless. The question is when will they become useless? He answers in verse 10---when full understanding or perfection (teleios-G5046) comes…When is that? The only time I can think of we will all have full understanding is when Jesus returns to set the record straight.

Paul alludes to this perfection or completeness in Eph 4:13, when Christ returns, within the context of church unity, which BTW, indicates to me the church is not yet perfectly and completely united. Thus the gifts of the spirit in 1 Co 12 were not eliminated! They are currently still alive and well. Paul indicated the gifts will not last forever, as will the attributes of faith, hope, and love (1 Co 13 13). The fact the gifts will not last forever does not negate the fact they are still in effect today.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

1.
2 Corinthians 3:17. I read on some blog one JW desperately trying to explain away the passage’s clear reading by saying the passage should read, “The Lord is “a” spirit. When the definite article “to” is in every Greek manuscript.







.

I don't think it was a Witness, when our own Bible NWT says "the" Lord. Are you sure the passage in question wasn't John 4:24?
Take care....I'll try to get to the other issues later.

 

[james2ko]

I don't think it was aWitness,when our own Bible NWTszys theLord

It was the second definite article that some JW thought should be translated "a":

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the [a] Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.​

When the NWT has "the" spirit.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It was the second definite article that some JW thought should be translated "a":

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the [a] Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.​

When the NWT has "the" spirit.

Previous comment has been edited.....see above

 

[james2ko]

Previous comment has been edited.....see above

It was the second definite article of 2 Co 3:17 which this person thought should be translated "a" spirit. They were discussing 2 Co 3:17 specifically..

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It was the second definite article of 2 Co 3:17 which this person thought should be translated "a" spirit. They were discussing 2 Co 3:17 specifically..

Well, I've run across a few people pretending to be Witnesses, trying to give us a bad name. Anyone can be anywhere, hiding behind a screen.

And, I've spoken with some Witnesses who weren't well-versed in Scriptures, also.

Idk

 

[james2ko]

Well, I've run across a few people pretending to be Witnesses, trying to give us a bad name. Anyone can be anywhere, hiding behind a screen.And, I've spoken with some Witnesses who weren't well-versed in Scriptures, also.

I'm aware of this. As a reminder, I am not anti JW. I consider them part of the body of Christ, as did Christ with the OT scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 23:2). I actually embrace some of their doctrines. What I am oppose to is the same behavior Christ was opposed to from the 1st century religious establishment--their hypocrisy, self-righteousness, and contempt toward others who are not under their corporate umbrella. These characteristics seem to be prevalent among the vast majority of JW's I have personally encountered.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I'm aware of this. As a reminder, I am not anti JW. I consider them part of the body of Christ, as did Christ with the OT scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 23:2). I actually embrace some of their doctrines. What I am oppose to is the same behavior Christ was opposed to from the 1st century religious establishment--their hypocrisy, self-righteousness, and contempt toward others who are not under their corporate umbrella. These characteristics seem to be prevalent among the vast majority of JW's I have personally encountered.

I'm sorry you've had some bad experiences with some JW's. We try to train ourselves not to be high-minded, but "with lowliness of mind considering that the others are superior to you." (Philippians 2:3) This mainly applies, though, to fellow worshippers, but more is said on this further down.

We do get upset at times with the Pharisee-like clergy of Christendom, which is not right (because, although Jesus got upset with those religious leaders in His day, he could read their heart....we can not). We don't intend to treat anyone harshly, but we are imperfect like everyone else.

We feel we have a superior way of life -- worshipping the true God, Jesus' Father, Jehovah, like no one else does today -- but that really shouldn't carry over into having a superior attitude.

The Apostle Paul gave some fine counsel to the Cretan Christians through Titus, who lived among Godless people (Titus 1:12), but they were "to speak evil of no man, not to be contentious, to be gentle, showing all meekness toward all men."(Titus 3:2) (In fact, I have a public discourse I give, containing this information.) But we face people all the time who are nasty to us, and intentionally twist our words and beliefs...so it's hard not to get irked.

We do try to imitate Jesus and apply Bible principles in every aspect of our lives, but Proverbs 15:1 often proves true,

Take care, my cousin.

 

[Yoshua]

Freedom is the God-given ability to choose our own course. To serve our God by imitating his precious son.
Jesus told us that the truth would "set us free".....what is it setting us free from do you think?

Hi Deeje,

It is the freedom from the bondage of sin (spiritual); freedom from the bondage of an organization (physical).

As for being "tied up to an organization or society", can you tell me when God's people were not a collective (organized into a body of people who share the same faith).
Just as God's "nation" meant the whole brotherhood of Israel, (whose beliefs were set by God and no deviation was permissible) so Christianity is the whole brotherhood of Christ's followers as a collective in the world (all were bound by the same teaching too. 2 John 9-11) Christianity was never about believing whatever you like. (1 Corinthians 1:10)
If you are not part of that united brotherhood, related by all beliefs in common, then you are outside of it.
Christendom is fragmented by their disunited beliefs despite holding some core doctrines in common, but all of these core doctrines originated from outside of Christianity. Not one of them is built on the solid foundation of scripture.

Therefore, if that will be the case, how did JW started in line with the Scripture?

Who is the God of Jesus Christ even now? (Revelation 3:12) To whom did he pray? (Matthew 6:9) Whose worship did he promote? (Philippians 2:11)
To say that you worship the same God as I do is not true. The God I worship is the God of Israel...the God and Father of Jesus Christ. He is not a split personality, nor did he ever solicit worship for himself. He is not an equal deity with the Father and the holy spirit, but the Father of all including his son.

When Jesus prayed the Lord's Prayer he began by saying..."OUR Father who art in heaven"...meaning that he included himself in the "our".
He also said to "hallow" or sanctify his Father's name....yet we rarely hear mention of it in the churches or see it in their Bibles. (Psalm 83:18 KJV)
He asked us to pray for God's Kingdom to "come" and for God's will to be "done on earth as it is in heaven"....yet Christendom teaches for the most part that all Christians go to heaven. (No one seems to know what for.) So how is God's will to be done on earth if everyone goes to heaven?

I am afraid that you and I do not worship the same God at all.

There is no resemblance.

Yeah. We called God, our Father. I don't think evangelical Christian taught all will go to heaven. Who are those "Christendom"?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

If you wish to discuss just scripture, say the word......I am happy to focus on scripture, as you may have noticed, my posts are always backed up by scripture.

The Watchtower is a Bible Society that prints our Bibles and Bible-based literature. I am not a representative of the Watchtower...I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I am more than happy to speak directly from the Bible on any topic you choose.

John 17:15-18:
“I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth. 18 Just as you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world"

Hi Deeje,

Then what/who is the governing body in JW?

Thanks

 

[Deeje]

Hi Deeje,

It is the freedom from the bondage of sin (spiritual); freedom from the bondage of an organization (physical).

I believe it is the freedom that comes from escaping false teachings. The truth is not what is taught in the churches of Christendom.

Therefore, if that will be the case, how did JW started in line with the Scripture?

If you are familiar with the prophesies in the book of Daniel you will know that they pertain to "the time of the end". (Daniel 12:4; 9, 10) It was only at this time that God foretold a 'cleansing, whitening and refining' of his people. Right on time, Jehovah raised up a people and proceeded to cleanse and refine their worship of all the pagan doctrines that the church introduced centuries before.

Yeah. We called God, our Father. I don't think evangelical Christian taught all will go to heaven. Who are those "Christendom"?

Most churches teach that all Christians go to heaven, which means that there will be 'all chiefs and no Indians'. Rulers have to have subjects and priests need sinners for whom to perform their duties. Who will these be?

"Christendom" is the broad term for all the "Christian" denominations that were spawned by Roman Catholicism. They are fragmented and disunited which is something Christ's followers cannot be. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

 

[Deeje]

Hi Deeje,

Then what/who is the governing body in JW?

They are an appointed group of men who are the shepherds of the entire flock. Just as there was a governing body of older men in Jerusalem who directed the work of the first century Christian congregations, so we have a similar structure. No individuals within the group make decisions for the body, but they are guided by God's spirit as a collective, to "feed" all in Christ's household their "food at the proper time. (Matthew 24:45) They are slaves of their brothers, not masters.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Freedom is the God-given ability to choose our own course. To serve our God by imitating his precious son.
Jesus told us that the truth would "set us free".....what is it setting us free from do you think?

As for being "tied up to an organization or society", can you tell me when God's people were not a collective (organized into a body of people who share the same faith).
Just as God's "nation" meant the whole brotherhood of Israel, (whose beliefs were set by God and no deviation was permissible) so Christianity is the whole brotherhood of Christ's followers as a collective in the world (all were bound by the same teaching too. 2 John 9-11) Christianity was never about believing whatever you like. (1 Corinthians 1:10)
If you are not part of that united brotherhood, related by all beliefs in common, then you are outside of it.
Christendom is fragmented by their disunited beliefs despite holding some core doctrines in common, but all of these core doctrines originated from outside of Christianity. Not one of them is built on the solid foundation of scripture.



Who is the God of Jesus Christ even now? (Revelation 3:12) To whom did he pray? (Matthew 6:9) Whose worship did he promote? (Philippians 2:11)
To say that you worship the same God as I do is not true. The God I worship is the God of Israel...the God and Father of Jesus Christ. He is not a split personality, nor did he ever solicit worship for himself. He is not an equal deity with the Father and the holy spirit, but the Father of all including his son.

When Jesus prayed the Lord's Prayer he began by saying..."OUR Father who art in heaven"...meaning that he included himself in the "our".
He also said to "hallow" or sanctify his Father's name....yet we rarely hear mention of it in the churches or see it in their Bibles. (Psalm 83:18 KJV)
He asked us to pray for God's Kingdom to "come" and for God's will to be "done on earth as it is in heaven"....yet Christendom teaches for the most part that all Christians go to heaven. (No one seems to know what for.) So how is God's will to be done on earth if everyone goes to heaven?

I am afraid that you and I do not worship the same God at all.

There is no resemblance.

Excellent questions, my Sister!

But most people won't try to answer all of them (they can't)....they'll just pick and choose some questions, and ignore the rest. Or, ignore all of them, but keep continuing to ask more, trying to control the conversation.

BTW, I really like your emoji's

 

[viole]

Defining the Holy Spirit is counterproductive. It's easy to define something in a way that allows us to already know and have it. This frees us from the burden of seeking it.

The real Holy Spirit is something we have to struggle and search for.

Accordng to my Christian friend, He Is really struggling to search for me.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Deeje]

Accordng to my Christian friend, He Is really struggling to search for me.

Ciao

- viole

God already knows each one of us. We are either "dead" or "alive" to him, so if he is not revealing himself to us, then perhaps there is a reason within ourselves for that.
It is we who are to search for him, not with an attitude like he owes us anything.....but with humility and a genuine appreciation for the gift of life itself.

If we consider the fact that all the odds are overwhelmingly against us ever existing as individuals, then life is a precious thing, no matter how awful our experience may be at present.
We are in the midst of a legal contest between the forces of good and evil.....these opposing forces were never supposed to be part of the human experience, but because our ancestor Adam chose to abuse his free will and introduced evil into our existence, the only way to demonstrate the wisdom of obedience to free willed beings, is to allow them to experience evil for themselves without intervention from God. He forces no one to serve him or to obey him, but allows all of us the freedom to choose our own course. At the end of the day, we have tested ourselves as to qualifying for citizenship in his kingdom.....the time when all returns to God's original purpose in Eden.

Do we want what God is offering? Are we willing to have our comfort zones invaded and our loyalties tested to the extreme? Are our motives entirely selfish in searching for God and the meaning of life?

Is it really all about us...or is the issue much bigger? Our life course answers those questions. God knows the qualities that he is looking for in his human children.....only those with the necessary qualities will become citizens of his kingdom. He has no place for rebels.....after all that's how we got into this mess in the first place.