comments on the Qur'an whether good or bad

[firedragon]

1. Of course you don't believe in original sin you go by the Qur'an.
2. The son will not bear the inequity of the parents. Exactly. I agree. When Adam and Eve were perfect or complete they had direct communication with god and everything in plain sight. When they sinned they were truly deserving of death, but they bore children after sin therefore produced imperfect offspring. Although unable to fully be complete toward god flawlessly we are shown undeserved kindness, although are flesh has sinful desires and we are born that way, we still have an opportunity to repent, so we are not without repurchase for our parents sin.
3. I know you don't like the question but is someone capable of remaining flawless before god? If so who is your example? I also understand we are not expected to be perfect, but are we capable of it?

1. Yes of course I go by the Quran. But, even in the bible, original sin is not an unambiguous teaching mate.
2. Adam and eve sinning and we inheriting it is your concept. Its not biblical. You say you are given undeserving kindness. Okay read this.

If a priest’s daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire. Leviticus.

That means death sentence to a prostitute, if her father is a priest.

Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. No man who has any defect may me near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the LORD.
He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy.

Leviticus.

Kindness we dont deserve? NOt really.

3. If the question is personal, I dont know of examples. I would say that I can only speculate that all the prophets who were inspired by God were examples. I believe my father is an example. But he was a champion boxer. You never know.

Why I dont like personal questions is not because I have a problem with them. Lol. Its because personally we could all tell a lot of crap.

 

[anonymous9887]

Response:
1- Any good thing which we receive, is from God and any thing which we receive from God, is good(according to Quran, Hadith and logic).
2- No it's not. The test was based on our own choice(according to Quran and Hadith).
3- You can continue with (1) and (2).

Elaborate on 2, what do you mean it was our choice?

 

[firedragon]

I agree with you here. A good combination of reading it and talking to people of that faith is helpful. Some of the Muslim members of RF have been very helpful answering respectful questions regarding Islam. I'm reading the Quran now since it is a very large and often misunderstood world religion that I want to have at least a fair opinion about.

Who's translation are you reading David?

 

[anonymous9887]

1. Yes of course I go by the Quran. But, even in the bible, original sin is not an unambiguous teaching mate.
2. Adam and eve sinning and we inheriting it is your concept. Its not biblical. You say you are given undeserving kindness. Okay read this.

If a priest’s daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire. Leviticus.

That means death sentence to a prostitute, if her father is a priest.

Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. No man who has any defect may me near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the LORD.
He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy.

Leviticus.

Kindness we dont deserve? NOt really.

3. If the question is personal, I dont know of examples. I would say that I can only speculate that all the prophets who were inspired by God were examples. I believe my father is an example. But he was a champion boxer. You never know.

Why I dont like personal questions is not because I have a problem with them. Lol. Its because personally we could all tell a lot of crap.

1. Off you were talking to a people god had selected. They had a higher accountability toward god, because they saw first hand gods deliverance. Plus when you take a case it is circumstantial, not every case is handled the same. I can go on and on, if there is something more specific you were getting at ask away.
2. That is exactly my point, you don't have any, and assuming the prophets were is a mistake, because if I'm not mistaken even mohammed sinned. But we do have an example Jesus christ remained perfect, fulfilled the law. This is a major point, which is why I ask if it is possible, the Qur'an doesn't cover that question.
3. The bible speaks a tremendous amount about sin for example psalm 51:1-5. Paul goes on and on on speaking about how sin works in the book of romans. We all die because of Adam and we gain life because of Jesus. Both were perfect men but adam chose to sin christ didnt.

 

[David1967]

I don't care about the offensive part. I love to study religion, and hearing people ideas and thoughts can be stimulating if you know how to separate the good from the bad. We can all benefit one person alone cannot get all the answers.

No offense intended. Hope none was taken.

 

[firedragon]

1. Off you were talking to a people god had selected. They had a higher accountability toward god, because they saw first hand gods deliverance. Plus when you take a case it is circumstantial, not every case is handled the same. I can go on and on, if there is something more specific you were getting at ask away.
2. That is exactly my point, you don't have any, and assuming the prophets were is a mistake, because if I'm not mistaken even mohammed sinned. But we do have an example Jesus christ remained perfect, fulfilled the law. This is a major point, which is why I ask if it is possible, the Qur'an doesn't cover that question.
3. The bible speaks a tremendous amount about sin for example psalm 51:1-5. Paul goes on and on on speaking about how sin works in the book of romans. We all die because of Adam and we gain life because of Jesus. Both were perfect men but adam chose to sin christ didnt.

1. Alright mate.
2. Mohammed sinned? You would have read some document written at least 180 years later. In that case, there are documents that say Jesus killed a boy for no other reason than an egoistic thuggery. I don't believe that. Lets stick to the Quran and lets not make these personal veneration's so seriously in order to justify our theology.
3. I know that paul sometimes agrees to traditional teachings in the bible, while also contradicting them. Psalm 51 does not talk about original sin. It talks about the sinful nature of man. Not because the ancestor sinned. Original sin is a concept, does not have biblical basis. Yes, bible writers did try to include new verses into the so called word of God to propagate the concept of original sin, but after finding older manuscripts many bible writers took them off.

Four central concepts attributed to Jesus are forgeries added to the Gospel of Luke

• Appearance to his disciples
• Jesus dying for the sins of humanity
• His ascension to heaven
• Disciples worshiping him while he ascends

Paul did not know he was writing the bible. His writings are his authorship. Not God. If you say that he was inspired by the holy spirit, that's your theory. He says he was visited by the spirit or the divine Jesus on his way to Damascus, you believe him. If he can claim to have been visited by Jesus, Muhammed can claim to have Gods word. Why dont you believe in Muhammed then instead?

In the story of Adam and Eve, only eve and her progeny is condemned for pain at childbirth as a punishment that will carry through. Also that love hate relationship with the serpent. And when the bible says the son shall not bear the inequity of the father, that is about inheriting sin. Not only about a sons father.

Muslims believe no messenger sinned. Adam is not called a messenger in the Quran, rather the chosen one. We believe that Jesus did not sin ever. Neither did Moses or Abraham.

 

[David1967]

Who's translation are you reading David?

I emailed Yusuf Estes website and they mailed me an English translation of the Quran. Translated by Maulana Wahiduddin Khan. Edited by Farida Khanam.

 

[firedragon]

I emailed Yusuf Estes website and they mailed me an English translation of the Quran. Translated by Maulana Wahiduddin Khan. Edited by Farida Khanam.

Thats easy to read I have read in a review. But I dont have a copy to read.

Cheers.

 

[David1967]

In a world where people who apparently follow a man who told you to give the other cheek, agree with them quickly, give your coat, justify killing thousands of people with an atomic bomb, what else do you expect?

Truth be told, there are followers of Jesus and Mohammed that they would both be ashamed of due to the actions they have committed on their behalf.

 

[anonymous9887]

1. Alright mate.
2. Mohammed sinned? You would have read some document written at least 180 years later. In that case, there are documents that say Jesus killed a boy for no other reason than an egoistic thuggery. I don't believe that. Lets stick to the Quran and lets not make these personal veneration's so seriously in order to justify our theology.
3. I know that paul sometimes agrees to traditional teachings in the bible, while also contradicting them. Psalm 51 does not talk about original sin. It talks about the sinful nature of man. Not because the ancestor sinned. Original sin is a concept, does not have biblical basis. Yes, bible writers did try to include new verses into the so called word of God to propagate the concept of original sin, but after finding older manuscripts many bible writers took them off.

Four central concepts attributed to Jesus are forgeries added to the Gospel of Luke

• Appearance to his disciples
• Jesus dying for the sins of humanity
• His ascension to heaven
• Disciples worshiping him while he ascends

Paul did not know he was writing the bible. His writings are his authorship. Not God. If you say that he was inspired by the holy spirit, that's your theory. He says he was visited by the spirit or the divine Jesus on his way to Damascus, you believe him. If he can claim to have been visited by Jesus, Muhammed can claim to have Gods word. Why dont you believe in Muhammed then instead?

In the story of Adam and Eve, only eve and her progeny is condemned for pain at childbirth as a punishment that will carry through. Also that love hate relationship with the serpent. And when the bible says the son shall not bear the inequity of the father, that is about inheriting sin. Not only about a sons father.

Muslims believe no messenger sinned. Adam is not called a messenger in the Quran, rather the chosen one. We believe that Jesus did not sin ever. Neither did Moses or Abraham.

2. Shabbir alley a Muslim scholar admitted muhammad sinned 3 times.Give me reference in the Qur'an that says they did not sin.
Where does it say the passage that the son will not bear the inequity of the father says it applies to sin? It applies to the eternal punishment of our works on earth. We will each pay according to what works we pursue.
4. The greek word proskuneo is used and can mean worship or obeisance, in the septuagint you see this used of Israelite kings and god was ok with them receiving reverence not worship.
5. Psalm 51:5 why would someone be a sinner in the womb? It is simple genetics, we inherit diseases and traits from our parents. It's science.

This is why I asked these questions:
1. Is any man capable of being flawless toward god? Why or why not? And provide evidence of someone who did.
2. Then did god create humans not capable of being perfect or able to perfectly fully fulfill gods word? Why or why not? So was gods creation flawed?
These questions cannot be avoided.

 

[firedragon]

Truth be told, there are followers of Jesus and Mohammed that they would both be ashamed of due to the actions they have committed on their behalf.

Absolutely. No question about it.

 

[anonymous9887]

1. Alright mate.
2. Mohammed sinned? You would have read some document written at least 180 years later. In that case, there are documents that say Jesus killed a boy for no other reason than an egoistic thuggery. I don't believe that. Lets stick to the Quran and lets not make these personal veneration's so seriously in order to justify our theology.
3. I know that paul sometimes agrees to traditional teachings in the bible, while also contradicting them. Psalm 51 does not talk about original sin. It talks about the sinful nature of man. Not because the ancestor sinned. Original sin is a concept, does not have biblical basis. Yes, bible writers did try to include new verses into the so called word of God to propagate the concept of original sin, but after finding older manuscripts many bible writers took them off.

Four central concepts attributed to Jesus are forgeries added to the Gospel of Luke

• Appearance to his disciples
• Jesus dying for the sins of humanity
• His ascension to heaven
• Disciples worshiping him while he ascends

Paul did not know he was writing the bible. His writings are his authorship. Not God. If you say that he was inspired by the holy spirit, that's your theory. He says he was visited by the spirit or the divine Jesus on his way to Damascus, you believe him. If he can claim to have been visited by Jesus, Muhammed can claim to have Gods word. Why dont you believe in Muhammed then instead?

In the story of Adam and Eve, only eve and her progeny is condemned for pain at childbirth as a punishment that will carry through. Also that love hate relationship with the serpent. And when the bible says the son shall not bear the inequity of the father, that is about inheriting sin. Not only about a sons father.

Muslims believe no messenger sinned. Adam is not called a messenger in the Quran, rather the chosen one. We believe that Jesus did not sin ever. Neither did Moses or Abraham.

As for an answer for Paul:
1. Simple Jesus quoted from many books which paul also quoted from, so the books Jesus quoted from were validated.
2. Paul is basically a commentary he comments on passages from the OT so like any commentary if it doesn't fit it's false, but it fits and harmonizes with the entire bible.

 

[firedragon]

2. Shabbir alley a Muslim scholar admitted muhammad sinned 3 times.Give me reference in the Qur'an that says they did not sin.
Where does it say the passage that the son will not bear the inequity of the father says it applies to sin? It applies to the eternal punishment of our works on earth. We will each pay according to what works we pursue.
4. The greek word proskuneo is used and can mean worship or obeisance, in the septuagint you see this used of Israelite kings and god was ok with them receiving reverence not worship.
5. Psalm 51:5 why would someone be a sinner in the womb? It is simple genetics, we inherit diseases and traits from our parents. It's science.

This is why I asked these questions:
1. Is any man capable of being flawless toward god? Why or why not? And provide evidence of someone who did.
2. Then did god create humans not capable of being perfect or able to perfectly fully fulfill gods word? Why or why not? So was gods creation flawed?
These questions cannot be avoided.

2. Shabir Ally is not my God.
3. He will not die for his father’s sin; he will surely live. But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people. “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep
all my decrees, he will surely live. The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them
4. Of course. Thats an argument against those who claim that Jesus is God because his disciples worshiped him. Same as Moses paying obeisance to his father in law. But I cant understand the relevance of this.
5. You can be born with a sinful nature. That does not mean we inherit sin. They are completely two different things.

I dont know if man can be flawless. I can only speculate. I cant claim for the whole of humanity. But I speculate that humans are not able to be with no sin. But maybe they can. I mean there could be one man in the world right now who cannot sin. His nature does not allow him to make any mistake of that nature. But thats an odd of 1/7B.

There is no evidence of who did.

You yourself is saying that God created everything perfect. It was Adams sin that made us humans sinners. Afterwards why do you ask this question of flawed Gods creation.

From my point of view, I have already answered this in an older post. If you want I can cite it again.

 

[firedragon]

As for an answer for Paul:
1. Simple Jesus quoted from many books which paul also quoted from, so the books Jesus quoted from were validated.
2. Paul is basically a commentary he comments on passages from the OT so like any commentary if it doesn't fit it's false, but it fits and harmonizes with the entire bible.

Okay. What books and if you could give me references I would really grateful.
Can you give me evidence to your claim that pauls comments on OT passages fit and harmonises with the entire bible.

 

[anonymous9887]

2. Shabir Ally is not my God.
3. He will not die for his father’s sin; he will surely live. But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people. “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep
all my decrees, he will surely live. The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them
4. Of course. Thats an argument against those who claim that Jesus is God because his disciples worshiped him. Same as Moses paying obeisance to his father in law. But I cant understand the relevance of this.
5. You can be born with a sinful nature. That does not mean we inherit sin. They are completely two different things.

I dont know if man can be flawless. I can only speculate. I cant claim for the whole of humanity. But I speculate that humans are not able to be with no sin. But maybe they can. I mean there could be one man in the world right now who cannot sin. His nature does not allow him to make any mistake of that nature. But thats an odd of 1/7B.

There is no evidence of who did.

You yourself is saying that God created everything perfect. It was Adams sin that made us humans sinners. Afterwards why do you ask this question of flawed Gods creation.

From my point of view, I have already answered this in an older post. If you want I can cite it again.

If every child is born a Muslim how can he be born with sinful tendencies? Who's is responsible for this innocent muslim to be born to sinful tendancies?

 

[firedragon]

If every child is born a Muslim how can he be born with sinful tendencies? Who's is responsible for this innocent muslim to be born to sinful tendancies?

I told you. That is my speculation.

I think I should cut and paste again.

I dont know if man can be flawless. I can only speculate. I cant claim for the whole of humanity. But I speculate that humans are not able to be with no sin. But maybe they can. I mean there could be one man in the world right now who cannot sin. His nature does not allow him to make any mistake of that nature. But thats an odd of 1/7B.

 

[anonymous9887]

Okay. What books and if you could give me references I would really grateful.
Can you give me evidence to your claim that pauls comments on OT passages fit and harmonises with the entire bible.

Man, I would have to give you many quotations, look at Jesus quotations, but they both quoted from Isaiah and they both used the vine illustration with the wild olive, Jesus doesn't mention the wild olives, but it's part of the same chapter in isaiah, Paul then goes on to explain that. If you are sincere, you would look at it. But if not I'll give you references later on.

 

[anonymous9887]

I told you. That is my speculation.

I think I should cut and paste again.

I dont know if man can be flawless. I can only speculate. I cant claim for the whole of humanity. But I speculate that humans are not able to be with no sin. But maybe they can. I mean there could be one man in the world right now who cannot sin. His nature does not allow him to make any mistake of that nature. But thats an odd of 1/7B.

Too bad this vital question cannot be answered. So god created everyone good, so either we can, or god created us flawed on purpose.

 

[firedragon]

Too bad this vital question cannot be answered. So god created everyone good, so either we can, or god created us flawed on purpose.

Alright, Ill cut and paste my answer again FYI.

Honestly, I have done some though on this. This is a study called theodicy.

I think the concept of God has been misunderstood a lot and some people who analysed Theodicy in great detail and had ideas that deferred from the normal answers and justifications religious leaders give were called heretics. Ibn Arabi was one of them. I mean out of the Muslims. There were many many Christians too.

I believe that Buddhism with its 4 truths etc the reincarnation theory is born of creation, life and evil justification.

I don't believe God is a being outside this world looking at all of us like we are ants.

Traditional Islam allowed free thought. During the times when in the western world Christianity was suppressing scientific exploration and free thought, Islamic empire was encouraging them. Ibn Arabi and Avicena were just two of the people who allowed philosophy enter their theological studies and explorations. At that time it was encouraged, thus the golden age.

I sincerely believe that Christianity as a whole is doing that now. Even Judaism. Though there was a lot of resistance some time ago. Killing scientists. Killing Tindale. Disallowing open surgery etc.

Well. The problem is we call him God. By the English word. What we are used to are Gods like Zeus and Apollo. Then came Jesus with a statue. Of course also the Indian Gods. Like Karuppayya. But when you understand it from the Arabic point of view it changes. Now Allah has become a proper name. Like Zeus. Thus when you say Allah you picture the Islamic God. Can you see that the previous sentence in bold itself is flawed? Allah is the translation The God. Replace Allah with 'The God' and you will see what I mean.

Thus when you say God you picture the Islamic God.

Elohim means Powers or Mights (Pluralis Majestatis). YHWH I have heard from scholars of the Hebrew language comes from Havah which means he exists. Allah means The Divinity.

The rabbit hole might run much deeper.

Since God is an Almighty being staying outside this world, why cant he see that an innocent human being is suffering. Now many would say that sin is punished. Really? A child is born into utmost poverty in Somalia and die of hunger. Is it because he sinned? Where did he get an opportunity to sin?

Also, when you study the Quran and classical Arabic in depth. Especially ancient documents. Trying to understand them, you will find that in language, nothing comes close to the language of the Quran. During that time, there are no Arabic work of this magnitude. Well, if I say 1% of this magnitude that is still undermining the Quran. Thus when anyone studies classical arabic, Muslim or not, the Quran is the best tool. Best is an understatement. By far.

Thus, when you study the Quran in depth, you will see that "We created" or "We made it happen" does not actually mean God did something. It could also very well mean It happened. Now there is a famous phrase that Muslim apologists use a lot. Kun Fa Yakun. Be and it is.

36:82 His command, when He wants anything, is to say to it: ‘Be,’ and it is.

The Arabic word Kun can never be simply translated as Be. It is the act of manifestation. The act of existing inside something.

Well, thats a long subject and it would take a whole book to explain. God does not get involved. Simple. Its a bit deeper than that.

 

[anonymous9887]

Alright, Ill cut and paste my answer again FYI.

Honestly, I have done some though on this. This is a study called theodicy.

I think the concept of God has been misunderstood a lot and some people who analysed Theodicy in great detail and had ideas that deferred from the normal answers and justifications religious leaders give were called heretics. Ibn Arabi was one of them. I mean out of the Muslims. There were many many Christians too.

I believe that Buddhism with its 4 truths etc the reincarnation theory is born of creation, life and evil justification.

I don't believe God is a being outside this world looking at all of us like we are ants.

Traditional Islam allowed free thought. During the times when in the western world Christianity was suppressing scientific exploration and free thought, Islamic empire was encouraging them. Ibn Arabi and Avicena were just two of the people who allowed philosophy enter their theological studies and explorations. At that time it was encouraged, thus the golden age.

I sincerely believe that Christianity as a whole is doing that now. Even Judaism. Though there was a lot of resistance some time ago. Killing scientists. Killing Tindale. Disallowing open surgery etc.

Well. The problem is we call him God. By the English word. What we are used to are Gods like Zeus and Apollo. Then came Jesus with a statue. Of course also the Indian Gods. Like Karuppayya. But when you understand it from the Arabic point of view it changes. Now Allah has become a proper name. Like Zeus. Thus when you say Allah you picture the Islamic God. Can you see that the previous sentence in bold itself is flawed? Allah is the translation The God. Replace Allah with 'The God' and you will see what I mean.

Thus when you say God you picture the Islamic God.

Elohim means Powers or Mights (Pluralis Majestatis). YHWH I have heard from scholars of the Hebrew language comes from Havah which means he exists. Allah means The Divinity.

The rabbit hole might run much deeper.

Since God is an Almighty being staying outside this world, why cant he see that an innocent human being is suffering. Now many would say that sin is punished. Really? A child is born into utmost poverty in Somalia and die of hunger. Is it because he sinned? Where did he get an opportunity to sin?

Also, when you study the Quran and classical Arabic in depth. Especially ancient documents. Trying to understand them, you will find that in language, nothing comes close to the language of the Quran. During that time, there are no Arabic work of this magnitude. Well, if I say 1% of this magnitude that is still undermining the Quran. Thus when anyone studies classical arabic, Muslim or not, the Quran is the best tool. Best is an understatement. By far.

Thus, when you study the Quran in depth, you will see that "We created" or "We made it happen" does not actually mean God did something. It could also very well mean It happened. Now there is a famous phrase that Muslim apologists use a lot. Kun Fa Yakun. Be and it is.

36:82 His command, when He wants anything, is to say to it: ‘Be,’ and it is.

The Arabic word Kun can never be simply translated as Be. It is the act of manifestation. The act of existing inside something.

Well, thats a long subject and it would take a whole book to explain. God does not get involved. Simple. Its a bit deeper than that.

Answer this question according to the Qur'an did god create everything good? Yes or no?