First Baseman
Retired athlete
He asked where would you put it, not what the Bible says.
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Why the Hell . . . .
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
He asked where would you put it, not what the Bible says.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Please read it again. I believe he asked why God would put people in Heaven not where would God put Heaven.
First Baseman
Retired athlete
Direct quote:
"And where else would you put a soul like that?"
I don't see anything mentioned in that question that would imply what you thought it was.
Draka
Wonder Woman
But the point is, he supposedly MADE the people. That is, if your god is so wise, loving, merciful, all-knowing, and so on, and this is the god that you believe beget us, then he made the "wicked and rebellious people" he is condemning. If your god is responsible for all, responsible for life, our very souls' creation, then it is his responsibility for what these souls do. If he is all-knowing, then he would already know, before we even live our lives, before we are even born, what we will do, what we will believe, and yet he still supposedly gives us breath, soul, life. He allows people to not believe in him, knows they will not before even they do, and yet still allows their existence. Then, given he has allowed their existence, created their souls even, he decides to punish them for being what he created them to be. Why? Is that truly "justice"? No.
Look, let's say that I create AI. I build robots, androids, that can think for themselves. I develop their programming. I set their parameters. It is all my doing. I know, when setting these parameters that certain ones will be more aggressive and more likely to rebuke authority than others, I know because I am the designer, yet I STILL flip that switch on. I am thus responsible for whatever wrongdoing they may do. Me. It makes no sense then for me to scold or punish the very life that I brought about and programmed for doing EXACTLY what already knew it would. If I didn't want it to behave that way, if I didn't want it to do certain things, I obviously should not have designed it like that. Saying I don't approve of what it does doesn't cut it...I made it. Saying I will punish it for who I made it to be is just sadistic. If I made a life that I KNEW would be a certain way and then turn around and say I was going to torture it for being that way, well that's just sadistic and cruel and makes me a very malevolent designer doesn't it?
Skwim
Veteran Member
Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than 1to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
Matthew 25:46
“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9
since indeed God considers it just ito repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction . . . .
Mark 9:47-48
And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into shell, 48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than 1to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
Matthew 25:46
“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9
since indeed God considers it just ito repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction . . . .
Mark 9:47-48
And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into shell, 48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
My point is in reference to the scriptural statement that hell was created for Satan and his henchmen, and in as much as Satan is still working his evil (so Christians claim) he must not be in hell; however, people now are.
Regardless, if god isn't getting a kick out of it, what is accomplished by putting people in hell to suffer?
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Brian Schuh
Well-Known Member
I had to watch a video in some kind of drug education class. In it a man with only one hand was telling the story of how he got really high on cocaine and then became afraid he was going to hell, so he got an electric saw and cut his right hand off. I guess I was supposed to learn that cocaine is bad, but instead I learned that taking Jesus literally is bad. I have been high on cocaine many times and never cut my hand off or plucked an eye out. This irrational fear of hell can become a mental illness. Members of other religions besides Christianity don't cut their hand off no matter if they are high on cocaine or not.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Scott C.
Just one guy
Great Christian thinkers have written volumes that bring consistency and logic to theirs beliefs on God, his nature, the nature of evil, free will, why heaven, why hell, why human suffering, why justice, why mercy, why a Savior...
Fair minded and informed atheists should be able to concede this point and simply say... yes I get it, but I don't believe it. Seriously, a thread on "Why hell?" with a couple of silly statements on why it's irrational? Gee, we believers in God and salvation never thought of that! Wow, how brilliant! How did the great Christian minds miss the obvious? That was sarcasm.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Great Christian thinkers have also vociferously disagreed with one another. So just whose conclusions should one buy? No need to answer. It's the great Christian thinker(s) whose thoughts coincide best with one's own.
That the great Christian thinkers don't agree on all this religious stuff? You bet.
It's nice to see you believers in god agree that it's all irrational. And by the number of posts here (108 so far) it's evident the thread "Why hell?" is far more interesting than you would expect. Obviously, some here do take it seriously.
What I suspect is that the question is discomforting, and you would prefer that it never appeared.
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Oh, we'll understand whatever it is He wants us to
understand, no doubt about that.
How would anyone know if I was without they
themselves being on the same intellectual level of the
Almighty all knowing God? If that shoe doesn't fit me,
why is it being shoved onto my foot?
No, I'm simply speaking as someone who no longer has
to worry about towing the party line in an environment
controlled by religious group-think. Been there, done that,
free of it now, and therefore am in a position to speak on
that. Didn't mean to strike a nerve by doing so.
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Scott C.
Just one guy
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Of course great thinkers disagree and they can't all be right. As a Mormon (which is Christian) I have several areas where I disagree with certain aspects of what has become mainstream Christian thought. My concept of hell is in some ways significantly different from other Christians. And if I took the time to explain my view, I think it would diffuse many atheist objections to hell. But I don't think you would admit that yes that is a more reasonable concept of hell and yes you can see how such a place could be part of the plan of a benevolent God. Maybe you would surprise me, but I doubt it. Your approach is so typical of what I see here. People act like Christians have never thought this stuff through and will have to run and hide the first time a reasonable person makes a contrary argument. Perhaps that's the case for some Christians, but not for this one.
I want to be very clear. Your challenge to "hell" is not the least bit discomforting to me and your line of thought is not the least bit persuasive.
And why is it that non-believers are so anxious to ascribe negative motives to those who disagree? How in the world would you know if your thread is discomforting to me? For you to suggest such is like me suggesting that the reason you post things against Christianity is because deep down in your heart you know it's true and you feel guilt for denying it. So, you fight against it as a defense mechanism against your own conscience. Now that's probably not true for you, but I think you get my point.
And if we want to play psychologist, I think those who loudly mock the views of others do so because of insecurity in their own position, Atheists around here spend far, far more time mocking Christianity than I mock atheism. In fact I don't mock it. I get it. I don't agree with it. But I get it. My behavior demonstrates a more sure conviction and peace with myself, who I am, and what I believe. I don't like talking like this, because it can sound arrogant. But I feel that I have to when my beliefs are ignorantly belittled and my motives are incorrectly challenged.
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I'm afraid we're just humans and we cannot really decide that.No one deserves hell.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Hmm. If you were to decide it, would you do the same as god or if able, save people instead?
I cannot even imagine I can decide. No one can or is good enough to take this responsibility, except God. I, however, want no one ever go to hell. My heart does not allow it.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Hmmm. Sensitive question: Why would you follow god when your heart doesnt agree with some of his actions?
In Muslim faith, is the heart involved in your obedience to god or is it sacrifice for complete obedience?
It's because I believe in Him. It is kinda like sometimes having my father, mother or someone I really really trust, telling me to do something I don't agree with, but they tell me "just trust me". But anyway, I know very well that I'm a human and no human ever knows everything. All we do is basically agreeing and disagreeing.
I don't know the general answer to that. I personally do it following my heart since I strongly believe in Islam. So I think that yes, the heart is involved in it.
I know. Many do. The fact that they're tacitly fine with it is troublesome. They talk about 'no atheists in foxholes' yet have no issue with even the most genorous clean living atheist being tortured for eternity without raising a bleat.
Ironic, no?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Okay. Ya got me. I respect that. Cant pull wool over your eyes (positive idiom). I follow a heart faith. I disagree with some of what my ancestors tell me and I tell them, hey, I understand and dont feel comfortable or thats not me. (I dont say hey, but you get it?) Its more mutual understanding and trusting each other will follow our ways without breaking up. Its kinda depressing but family knows and says whats best for me.
Different ways of experiencing trust and love from the god/s or spirits we honor.
Okay. Ya got me. I respect that. Cant pull wool over your eyes (positive idiom). I follow a heart faith. I disagree with some of what my ancestors tell me and I tell them, hey, I understand and dont feel comfortable or thats not me. (I dont say hey, but you get it?) Its more mutual understanding and trusting each other will follow our ways without breaking up. Its kinda depressing but family knows and says whats best for me.
Different ways of experiencing trust and love from the god/s or spirits we honor.
And I respect that as well, ma'am