Why the Hell . . . .

[Sultan Of Swing]

But it isn't "in general" at all, is it. It's about the very specific human suffering that god inflicts on those who haven't followed his rules, and as we both know, it isn't only the wicked who are on the receiving end of god's wrath. All you have to be is faithless.

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
​

Seems I, a mere agnostic, know the Bible better than you do. Hmmm

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Haha loving that smiley, did make me grin.

The faithless are counted among the wicked, and also hate and rebel against God.

EDIT, elaboration: Unbelief is a sin in itself, because it is a wilful suppression of the truth (Romans 1). The Bible doesn't treat it as a passive lack of something that isn't the fault of the person.

 

[Skwim]

Haha loving that smiley, did make me grin.

The faithless are counted among the wicked, and also hate and rebel against God.

In as much as the faithless includes those who've never heard of god and his scheme, that's one heck of a broad definition of "wicked."

GOD: "Haven't heard of me and my scheme? Tooooo bad. Off with their heads! OOPS! I mean, Into the fire with you so that I may be glorified."​

(I sometimes confuse god with the foul-tempered monarch, the Queen of Hearts, in Alice and Wonderland.)

EDIT, elaboration: Unbelief is a sin in itself, because it is a wilful suppression of the truth (Romans 1). The Bible doesn't treat it as a passive lack of something that isn't the fault of the person.

Another very unconventional definition. How convenient.

In any case, Chapter and verse please.
.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

In as much as the faithless includes those who've never heard of god and his scheme, that's one heck of a broad definition of "wicked."

GOD: "Haven't heard of me and my scheme? Tooooo bad. Off with their heads! OOPS! I mean, Into the fire with you so that I may be glorified."​

(I sometimes confuse god with the foul-tempered monarch, the Queen of Hearts, in Alice and Wonderland.)

Another very unconventional definition. How convenient.

In any case, Chapter and verse please.
.

Romans 1:18-20:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."

Men are without excuse, what can be known about God is plain to them, God has shown it to them, men by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. In the light of these verses, to be without faith is not a passive thing, but an active suppression of the truth.

 

[Skwim]

Romans 1:18-20:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."

This in no way excuses those who have never heard the "message" from god's wrath. Romans 1:18-20 only addresses one more category of sinners; those who have heard and suppress the truth. It's no different than when the Bible says in Ephesians 6:4

Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
​

and thinking it's alright for mothers provoke their children to anger. Ephesians 6:4 doesn't give mothers the right simply because it only mentions fathers. And Romans 1:18-20 doesn't excuse the uninformed faithless because it only mentions the informed.

In light of

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
which makes no distinction among the faithless;

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life,"
which makes no distinction among those who don't believe.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
which makes no distinction among the faithless.​

it's obvious that all it takes to be excluded from the saved, and therefore sent to hell, is to lack faith, FOR WHATEVER REASON.


.

​

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

This in no way excuses those who have never heard the "message" from god's wrath. Romans 1:18-20 only addresses one more category of sinners; those who have heard and suppress the truth. It's no different than when the Bible says in Ephesians 6:4

Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
​

and thinking it's alright for mothers provoke their children to anger. Ephesians 6:4 doesn't give mothers the right simply because it only mentions fathers. And Romans 1:18-20 doesn't excuse the uninformed faithless because it only mentions the informed.

In light of

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
which makes no distinction among the faithless;

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life,"
which makes no distinction among those who don't believe.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
which makes no distinction among the faithless.​

it's obvious that all it takes to be excluded from the saved, and therefore sent to hell, is to lack faith, FOR WHATEVER REASON.


.

​

Romans 1:18-23 isn't talking about people who have only heard the Gospel, but everyone. It isn't saying people have no excuse because they've been preached the Gospel to, but because from the things created and the things around them and innately they know of God and suppress the truth. No one has an excuse, regardless of whether they have heard of the Gospel or not, because God's attributes are plainly seen, that's what the verses are saying.

 

[Skwim]

Romans 1:18-23 isn't talking about people who have only heard the Gospel, but everyone. It isn't saying people have no excuse because they've been preached the Gospel to, but because from the things created and the things around them and innately they know of God and suppress the truth. No one has an excuse, regardless of whether they have heard of the Gospel or not, because God's attributes are plainly seen, that's what the verses are saying.

Good. Then we're on the same page. But that they innately know of God and suppress the truth? That the Sentinelese people of the Adaman Islands for instance, who have had virtually no contact with the outside world at all, innately know they need to be saved, and to do so they must accept Jesus as their lord and savior? How do you come by this rather peculiar information?


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[blue taylor]

It's said that hell was originally created as a place for Satan and his angels. (From what a lot of Christians have said, evidently Satan hasn't found his way there yet, as he's still leading us good humans astray.) Fine, but then god decided to use hell as a final resting place for those of us who fail to toe his line.

So what's the deal here? Was hell going to waste with no Satan to burn? Or does god simply get a kick out of making people suffer?

Just what is accomplished by putting people in hell?


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There is no hell or satan. We are to God like a grain of sand. A grain of sand holds a long history, and is going to have an even longer one. Just maybe not exactly a grain of sand anymore.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Good. Then we're on the same page. But that they innately know of God and suppress the truth? That the Sentinelese people of the Adaman Islands for instance, who have had virtually no contact with the outside world at all, innately know they need to be saved, and to do so they must accept Jesus as their lord and savior? How do you come by this rather peculiar information?


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They don't know that, but the Bible teaches they know there is a God who should be obeyed and having some understanding of His moral laws, and these things can be suppressed by unrighteousness.

 

[Skwim]

There is no hell or satan. We are to God like a grain of sand. A grain of sand holds a long history, and is going to have an even longer one. Just maybe not exactly a grain of sand anymore.

Sultan Of Swing says otherwise. He recognizes hell. In my OP I asked "Just what is accomplished by putting people in hell?"

In post 25 he answered that it (putting people in hell) achieves justice for rebelling against God and sinning against Him.

As for Satan, the Watchtower seems to disagree with you. From the Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY.

"Satan, no doubt identifying Jesus as the Son of God and the one who was prophesied to bruise him in the head (Ge 3:15), did everything he could to destroy Jesus.

Jesus here shows that Satan was once in the truth, but forsook it. Beginning with his first overt act in turning Adam and Eve away from God, he was a manslayer, for he thereby brought about the death of Adam and Eve, which, in turn, brought sin and death to their offspring. (Ro 5:12) Throughout the Scriptures the qualities and actions attributed to him could be attributed only to a person, not to an abstract principle of evil. It is clear that the Jews, and Jesus and his disciples, knew that Satan existed as a person."
source


.​

 

[blue taylor]

Satan is a mythical being that Christians can blame their sins on. The devil made me do it!

 

[Skwim]

Satan is a mythical being that Christians can blame their sins on.

Guess you're not a JW after all. Ya had me fooled for awhile. No harm no foul though.


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[blue taylor]

Guess you're not a JW after all. Ya had me fooled for awhile. No harm no foul though.


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So many people make a soap opera out of the Bible, and much of it is.

 

[JustWondering]

Perhaps they are looking for those who do believe, and shove that ridiculous belief upon them time and time again, to actually take a moment and think about how ridiculous that belief actually is?

That's why I do it. Unfortunately, most believers are sheeple with no interest in thinking for themselves or too brainwashed to think outside the box they've been put into.

 

[Astravalon]

People that claim they don't believe in hell, or God, seem to ask more questions about it then those who do believe. Why is that?

Probably because when one isn't immersed in dogma and
doctrine day in ad day out, missing the forest for the
trees, one has a chance to actually think these things
through, see the bigger picture, and, subsequently, question
things without fear of being disfellowshipped.

Much as human fathers do God does discipline His children in order that they learn and grow and become more holy and more like Jesus. However with the unsaved, these people have rejected God and are punished for their sin to fulfil justice.

What is just about God creating someone He knew in
advance would reject Him to the point of needing to be
punished for it in hell for all eternity? If such a person is
indeed that offensive to Him, why wouldn't He simply
refrain from creating that individual to begin with?



-

 

[First Baseman]

Probably because when one isn't immersed in dogma and
doctrine day in ad day out, missing the forest for the
trees, one has a chance to actually think these things
through, see the bigger picture, and, subsequently, question
things without fear of being disfellowshipped.



What is just about God creating someone He knew in
advance would reject Him to the point of needing to be
punished for it in hell for all eternity? If such a person is
indeed that offensive to Him, why wouldn't He simply
refrain from creating that individual to begin with?



-

Why don't you invite the Almighty over for coffee and just simply ask Him? I doubt you'd understand the answers even if He took you up on it.

You speak as if you are on the same intellectual level of the Almighty all knowing God. Isn't that rather presumptuous of you?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

What is just about God creating someone He knew in
advance would reject Him to the point of needing to be
punished for it in hell for all eternity? If such a person is
indeed that offensive to Him, why wouldn't He simply
refrain from creating that individual to begin with?

And those upon whom God has mercy wouldn't know what they are being saved from. God's execution of His justice shows His glory. If God only allowed 'righteous' persons to live in the first place, there wouldn't be anyone alive, it is entirely God's prerogative to have mercy upon those whom He has called among a wicked and rebellious people.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

It's said that hell was originally created as a place for Satan and his angels. (From what a lot of Christians have said, evidently Satan hasn't found his way there yet, as he's still leading us good humans astray.) Fine, but then god decided to use hell as a final resting place for those of us who fail to toe his line.

So what's the deal here? Was hell going to waste with no Satan to burn? Or does god simply get a kick out of making people suffer?

Just what is accomplished by putting people in hell?


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People that claim they don't believe in hell, or God, seem to ask more questions about it then those who do believe. Why is that? Are you looking for validation?

I don't believe there is a hell because I do believe in God, in my case, a non-interactive God in this world of our test. Hell is a place created by sadists. Why would God or the (saints?) want to listen to or even know that was going on. Oblivion is the only humane answer for tormented souls, and it's chosen by the those who committing themselves to it. I imagine the hereafter is bathed in the Light of Truth, making it impossible to lie to one's self, impossible to hide.

 

[Muffled]

It's said that hell was originally created as a place for Satan and his angels. (From what a lot of Christians have said, evidently Satan hasn't found his way there yet, as he's still leading us good humans astray.) Fine, but then god decided to use hell as a final resting place for those of us who fail to toe his line.

So what's the deal here? Was hell going to waste with no Satan to burn? Or does god simply get a kick out of making people suffer?

Just what is accomplished by putting people in hell?


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I believe there is nothing in the text that says it is final.

I believe you are assuming that people go there before Satan does but I don't believe that is the case but the exception.

I don't believe so. Jesus wept over the suffering involved in the death of Lazarus and lamented over the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[Muffled]

You could just as easily ask 'What is accomplished by putting people in heaven?'

Either way the bible doesn't say, exactly.

Personally, I think it's because the constant sin warps your soul into something unrepentant and irredeemable. And where else would you put a soul like that?

I believe the Bible calls it a rest.

 

[Muffled]

Like non-believers and sodomites...

I believe non-believes are certainly at risk as are sodomites.