Women are not second class citizens in Catholicism.

[Saint Frankenstein]

that is how the church shall remain durable, Forever Strong and influential, and always more welcoming to those who belong to cultures or Religions that fundamentalists are hostile towards. I find the church to also be more science-friendly than fundamentalists

Well Frank, you are a rational thinker and have done your studies. God loves you and the church is sorry to see you go. I don't fault you for giving up on the church , but don't give up on God or prayer. Bless u!

Thanks. I have done a lot of study on my own over the years. I won't deny the beauty that exists in Catholicism and I still would visit churches just for the beauty of them, but I just don't think I'm cut out to be a Catholic in terms of belief and practice. My current main interests lie in Greco-Roman and Mesoamerican religions, shamanism and Shaktism (Indian Goddess worship), so I will explore those in pursuit of truth, beauty, excellence and balance.

God bless you, as well. Never stop exploring and questioning. Regardless, I will never be an atheist and will always view the cosmos and whatever lies beyond it with awe and grand beauty.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Church acknowledges that the Saints and the popes have been wrong about all kinds of things. Those quotes are not all reflections of the church.

The point I was making in this thread is if the church hated women, it wouldn't have more shrines , miracles , churches ,and venerations of women than of men or call the greatest saint of modern times as well as the greatest saint of ancient time both women, if women Were Somehow less than or were despised.

So... a church that builds shrines to a few women is incapable of discriminating against women in its congregations? That makes no sense.

BTW: there seems to be a fair bit of sexism in the way that sainthoods are handed out. Based on one source that looked at a sampling of ~10% of Catholic saints:

- Catholic saints are predominantly men (about 84%).
- For female saints, their virtue (and value?) seems tied very closely to chastity: 70% of women are either nuns or virgins.
- Just considering the laity, lay men outnumber lay women by a 5:1 ratio.

http://questionsfromaewe.blogspot.ca/2014/04/saint-by-numbers.html

The way the Catholic Church doles out sainthoods appears to be sexist, and the way it grants sainthoods to women (on the rare occasions when it does), it often does so in an apparently sexist way.

 

[paarsurrey]

Women are not second class citizens in Catholicism

@PopeADope
1.Does Catholicism provide any inheritance rights (to women), equal to men or lesser? Please quote from Gospels. Right?

2. Women are not equal in the Church:

34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians 14&version=NKJV

Regards

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

2. Women are not equal in the Church:

34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians 14&version=NKJV

Regards

FYI: women speak in church all the time. It was common for women to do some of the Bible readings at my ex-wife's church.

 

[paarsurrey]

FYI: women speak in church all the time. It was common for women to do some of the Bible readings at my ex-wife's church.

But the Christian/Catholic Church does not allow it.
Regards

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But the Christian/Catholic Church does not allow it.
Regards

Incorrect. They do allow it. You can see women teaching men in many Catholic churches.

For how they reconcile this practice with the Bible passage you quoted, you'll have to ask them.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

2. Women are not equal in the Church:

34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians 14&version=NKJV

Regards

This is one of the verses used by those who oppose female clerics in Catholicism.

 

[paarsurrey]

This is one of the verses used by those who oppose female clerics in Catholicism.

I think that was the culture in the ancient times.
I don't think that there is anything specific in Gathas/Yasna that ladies could have any priestly role in the Zoroastrians temple.
Anybody to reflect on this aspect quoting from the Gathas/Yasna.
Regards

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I think that was the culture in the ancient times.

Except there were actually women who acted as clerics. Watch a programme called 'Divine Women' - it explores Roman-era ruins that show a woman in priestly garb.

I don't think that there is anything specific in Gathas/Yasna that ladies could have any priestly role in the Zoroastrians temple.
Anybody to reflect on this aspect quoting from the Gathas/Yasna.
Regards

I don't think there's anything specific in Gathas or the Yasna saying only men can be mobeds, nor that women cannot be mobeds. Considering Ahura Mazda doesn't necessarily fit into the current binary gender narrative - he's neither male nor female (I just refer to him as 'him' because of the cultural bias I've grown up with in the West).

 

[paarsurrey]

Douay-Rheims- Catholic Bible
On Women:
Peter 3:3
3Whose adorning let it not be the outward plaiting of the hair, or the wearing of gold, or the putting on of apparel:
http://biblehub.com/drb/1_peter/3.htm

Instructions to Women
1 Timothy 2:9-12
9In like manner women also in decent apparel: adorning themselves with modesty and sobriety, not with plaited hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly attire, 10But as it becometh women professing godliness, with good works. 11Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection. 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.
http://biblehub.com/drb/1_timothy/2.htm

Regards

#50#63#65#68

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Douay-Rheims- Catholic Bible
On Women:
Peter 3:3
3Whose adorning let it not be the outward plaiting of the hair, or the wearing of gold, or the putting on of apparel:
http://biblehub.com/drb/1_peter/3.htm

Instructions to Women
1 Timothy 2:9-12
9In like manner women also in decent apparel: adorning themselves with modesty and sobriety, not with plaited hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly attire, 10But as it becometh women professing godliness, with good works. 11Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection. 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.
http://biblehub.com/drb/1_timothy/2.htm

Regards

#50#63#65#68

Have you ever actually seen a Catholic mass?

 

[Shiranui117]

Incorrect. They do allow it. You can see women teaching men in many Catholic churches.

For how they reconcile this practice with the Bible passage you quoted, you'll have to ask them.

That verse was written at a time when women were illiterate and uneducated, and that was why women were not allowed to teach in church; in Greco-Roman society, a woman's job was basically to cook, clean and serve her husband. In 21st-century Western society, however, women are educated and get jobs and contribute their labor and their intellect to society, same as men. So because women are just as educated as men (and very often stronger in their faith than us menfolk), women often teach, either giving guest lectures in lieu of the priest's homily during Mass or as Sunday school teachers.

 

[paarsurrey]

Have you ever actually seen a Catholic mass?

Two/three times I have attended Catholic Sunday Service in the Churches.
Regards

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

That verse was written at a time when women were illiterate and uneducated, and that was why women were not allowed to teach in church; in Greco-Roman society, a woman's job was basically to cook, clean and serve her husband. In 21st-century Western society, however, women are educated and get jobs and contribute their labor and their intellect to society, same as men. So because women are just as educated as men (and very often stronger in their faith than us menfolk), women often teach, either giving guest lectures in lieu of the priest's homily during Mass or as Sunday school teachers.

How educated were the men? Most people couldn't read or write. What gave the penises the edge?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Two/three times I have attended Catholic Sunday Service in the Churches.
Regards

Then I would expect you to know better.

There's plenty to criticize the Catholic Church for without making up problems based on misunderstandings.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That verse was written at a time when women were illiterate and uneducated, and that was why women were not allowed to teach in church; in Greco-Roman society, a woman's job was basically to cook, clean and serve her husband. In 21st-century Western society, however, women are educated and get jobs and contribute their labor and their intellect to society, same as men. So because women are just as educated as men (and very often stronger in their faith than us menfolk), women often teach, either giving guest lectures in lieu of the priest's homily during Mass or as Sunday school teachers.

That works as an explanation... provided the author didn't have any insight into 21st Century culture.

This is okay if you assume that Paul (or someone claiming to be Paul) was responsible for the passage. It's problematic if the passage is supposedly divinely inspired, since it implies that either:

- God didn't have the foresight to anticipate future society, or
- God did foresee future society, implying that the passage is meant to still apply.

 

[Sapiens]

In the final analysis a man by definition (with infallibility to boot) is in charge and all women must be subservient to him. Until this changes all the rest is window dressing. What more need be said?

 

[paarsurrey]

In the final analysis a man by definition (with infallibility to boot) is in charge and all women must be subservient to him. Until this changes all the rest is window dressing. What more need be said?

I agree with one.
One would like to read the following:
"Over time in Christianized Europe the lost identity of the woman came to be reflected also in the legal texts. For example, in British statutes, the married woman had no property rights of her own. Her property became that of her husband. This was thought to be compatible with the biblical text whereby man and woman joined together become one, and the one was the man. By the time of the French Revolution's The Declaration of the Rights of Man, woman was excluded. She did not exist for purposes of the new human rights text. For this reason those contemporary Islamic jurists who are proud to point out the progressiveness of Islamic law vís à vís European law emphasize that the Quranic text and the juristic interpretations gave Muslim women in principle economic independence much earlier than the European legal systems by allowing her to own her property in her own name. Now that the European legal texts have caught up with the Islamic law on this point, there are now the issues of equality between men and women."
English Translation of the Lecture held by Dr. Jur., Ph.D. Christina Jones -June 14th, 1998 on the occasion of the exhibition at Göttingen
https://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/womtislm.htm
Islam was the first to recognize and allow Right of Women, the West had to follow suit in effects to Islamic influence later. Christianity never recognized women rights in its scripture rather exploited and made it a tool to rob the women.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Women are not second class citizens in Catholicism

It is to be sure that Catholicism considered women of a lower cadre of human beings than the men. In religions Islam was the first to recognize and allow Rights of Women. The West had to follow suit in effects to Islamic influence later. Christianity/Catholicism never recognized women rights in its scripture rather it exploited and made it a tool to rob the women.

Regards

 

[Shiranui117]

That works as an explanation... provided the author didn't have any insight into 21st Century culture.

This is okay if you assume that Paul (or someone claiming to be Paul) was responsible for the passage. It's problematic if the passage is supposedly divinely inspired, since it implies that either:

- God didn't have the foresight to anticipate future society, or
- God did foresee future society, implying that the passage is meant to still apply.

Of course St. Paul didn't know what society would be like in the 21st-century Western world. How could he have?

St. Paul wrote that letter to address the immediate concerns of Christians living in that city at that time. It just so happened that a lot of the advice he gave about how to live and how to act can also apply to any parish in any place in any time period.