Women are not second class citizens in Catholicism.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This thread is kind of like another one I had, but I was hoping also for one where I could debate. There is a possibility that starting tomorrow sometime , I will not have access to Internet for a week , but I can assure you I will eventually thoroughly refute any of your claims that the Catholic Church is sexist or misogynistic.

The Catholic Church enslaved women on an industrial scale. The tail end of it was within my lifetime:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_asylum

I don't think you'll be able to convince me that the church that perpetuated the Magdalene Asylums wasn't sexist.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Women have administrative positions in the Church.

But the only one allowed to wear the fancy dresses are the men, right? No priests, no bishops, no popes ...

Women can have all the same traits as any great pope, but they can never be a father, as the Holy Father is.

Men can never be God either, but that doesn't stop them from portraying themselves as mouthpieces from God. Does any church have the right to tell God whom He can and cannot call into such and such a position?

Men cannot influence the world like women can, pure and simple.

Now I'm REALLY confused why men have the top spots: women, not men, were loyal to Jesus even during the crucifixion and women, not men, influence the world more than men.

Since we are the superior candidates for the job ...

I do not agree. Is drafting men for Vietnam and them coming home in body bags, wheelchairs, missing limbs, burned from head to toe, in wheel chairs, blind, deaf, disfigured etc. sexist?

Besides the fact that I feel only wars of defense should be done, not wars of offense, yes, it IS sexist to assume women can't shoot a gun or press a button for a drone to bomb the crap out of someone.

Men die 93.1% more often on the job than women http://riderrants.blogspot.com/2015/05/gender-pay-inequality-men-do-risky-jobs.html

That is because there are jobs men are on average more fit for than women , and often those are very dangerous jobs. So, who knows, it isn't that great being men. We also commit suicide more often.

Obviously they aren't, if they die more on the job.

What do you think of Jesus picking 12 men to be His Apostles?

If he had female disciples too, why don't they get more press? He had way more than 12. We don't even get books from all 12, do we? It's like, "Jesus had loads of apostles, but we'll only count 12, but we're running out of paper, so we'll focus on Peter and a few others."

She is my mother who can get God to change his mind , and will go before God on Judgement Day, beg Him to spare many souls deserving damnation, and he will listen to her.

God wouldn't need a human woman had He been allowed to keep His wife Asherah.

 

[Riverwolf]

God wouldn't need a human woman had He been allowed to keep His wife Asherah.

You know, the proper name "God" didn't always belong to the same deity it does now. It's quite likely that it was once another name for Tiw (Týr in Old Norse). Before Woden took the titles during the Migration Age, Tiw was the Allfather and King of the Northern Gods (apparently even remaining so on the Continent).

And your post here reminded me of something. We don't remember the name of Tiw's consort; all we have are reconstructed hypothoses. At least Asherah's name is properly remembered.

 

[Spiderman]

You know, the proper name "God" didn't always belong to the same deity it does now. It's quite likely that it was once another name for Tiw (Týr in Old Norse). Before Woden took the titles during the Migration Age, Tiw was the Allfather and King of the Northern Gods (apparently even remaining so on the Continent).

And your post here reminded me of something. We don't remember the name of Tiw's consort; all we have are reconstructed hypothoses. At least Asherah's name is properly remembered.

The church will not excommunicate or imprison women for ordering fancy clerical dresses and preaching.

Was Mother Teresa a second-class citizen? In her lifetime I'm guessing it was her that got more media attention and praise than any other person on the earth.

She absolutely knew God was with her, to be a little woman and go into a non-Christian country, and one of the worst ghettos in the world, with nothing financially to depend on but God's Providence, is someone who knows with certainty that God is going to provide.

She traveled into Lebanon to care for the suffering during the Civil War where Christians and Muslims were killing each other. She also traveled to communist countries to care for the poor and establish missionary of Charity communities in many countries that are hostile towards Christianity.

That is a miracle. The Catholic Church has many womenn in all centuries that have done those amazing works of mercy. From what I can tell, the most amazing , faithful, and courageous women in history are often Catholic.

So for the church to produce such extraordinary people, it must be doing something right. We can dwell on the negative things Catholics have done , or we can look at the fact that for many centuries it was the Catholic church that was responsible for all hospitals and universities. Often they were run by monks and nuns who weren't even benefiting financially.

The Catholic Church is durable, powerful, influential, and the greatest institution and force in building Western Civilization.

I don't see incredible Mother Teresa type figures protesting that there should be female priests.

They can become Anglican and I actually know of females who call themselves Catholic priests. I met a chaplain at a hospital who said she was a Catholic priest. She uses the same liturgy and all of the sacraments, it's just she isn't recognized by the Pope.

The Church believes that the 12 apostles were the original Priests, and it is very clear from the writings of that time that the people they ordained and leaders of the church were men, all books in the New Testament were written by men. So the church keeps with that tradition.

However , I see no other religious Institution that honors women more than the Catholic Church. They might not be priests , but they are recognized as being more honorable, Noble, favored by God, and powerful than priests.

Therefore, to claim the church recognizes them as second-class Citizens is absurd.

 

[Riverwolf]

The church will not excommunicate or imprison women for ordering fancy clerical dresses and preaching.

Was Mother Teresa a second-class citizen? In her lifetime I'm guessing it was her that got more media attention and praise than any other person on the earth.

She absolutely knew God was with her, to be a little woman and go into a non-Christian country, and one of the worst ghettos in the world, with nothing financially to depend on but God's Providence, is someone who knows with certainty that God is going to provide.

She traveled into Lebanon to care for the suffering during the Civil War where Christians and Muslims were killing each other. She also traveled to communist countries to care for the poor and establish missionary of Charity communities in many countries that are hostile towards Christianity.

That is a miracle. The Catholic Church has many womenn in all centuries that have done those amazing works of mercy. From what I can tell, the most amazing , faithful, and courageous women in history are often Catholic.

So for the church to produce such extraordinary people, it must be doing something right. We can dwell on the negative things Catholics have done , or we can look at the fact that for many centuries it was the Catholic church that was responsible for all hospitals and universities. Often they were run by monks and nuns who weren't even benefiting financially.

The Catholic Church is durable, powerful, influential, and the greatest institution and force in building Western Civilization.

I don't see incredible Mother Teresa type figures protesting that there should be female priests.

They can become Anglican and I actually know of females who call themselves Catholic priests. I met a chaplain at a hospital who said she was a Catholic priest. She uses the same liturgy and all of the sacraments, it's just she isn't recognized by the Pope.

The Church believes that the 12 apostles were the original Priests, and it is very clear from the writings of that time that the people they ordained and leaders of the church were men, all books in the New Testament were written by men. So the church keeps with that tradition.

However , I see no other religious Institution that honors women more than the Catholic Church. They might not be priests , but they are recognized as being more honorable, Noble, favored by God, and powerful than priests.

Therefore, to claim the church recognizes them as second-class Citizens is absurd.

And this little rant of yours is relevant to my lamentation that Tiw's wife is basically lost... how?

In any case, here's a good test to see if this is true: gender-flip God, Jesus, and all the apostles.

Jesus as the daughter of Goddess, who travelled with 12 female apostles, and was best friends with a character who has debatable status as a male prostitute.

Can you imagine this? Would it be acceptible?

 

[Spiderman]

And this little rant of yours is relevant to my lamentation that Tiw's wife is basically lost... how?

In any case, here's a good test to see if this is true: gender-flip God, Jesus, and all the apostles.

Jesus as the daughter of Goddess, who travelled with 12 female apostles, and was best friends with a character who has debatable status as a male prostitute.

Can you imagine this? Would it be acceptible?

I quoted the wrong post. I hate this phone

 

[Spiderman]

But the only one allowed to wear the fancy dresses are the men, right? No priests, no bishops, no popes ...


Men can never be God either, but that doesn't stop them from portraying themselves as mouthpieces from God. Does any church have the right to tell God whom He can and cannot call into such and such a position?


Now I'm REALLY confused why men have the top spots: women, not men, were loyal to Jesus even during the crucifixion and women, not men, influence the world more than men.

Since we are the superior candidates for the job ...


Besides the fact that I feel only wars of defense should be done, not wars of offense, yes, it IS sexist to assume women can't shoot a gun or press a button for a drone to bomb the crap out of someone.


Obviously they aren't, if they die more on the job.


If he had female disciples too, why don't they get more press? He had way more than 12. We don't even get books from all 12, do we? It's like, "Jesus had loads of apostles, but we'll only count 12, but we're running out of paper, so we'll focus on Peter and a few others."


God wouldn't need a human woman had He been allowed to keep His wife Asherah.

I responded to your post but quoted the wrong person lol

 

[Spiderman]

And this little rant of yours is relevant to my lamentation that Tiw's wife is basically lost... how?

In any case, here's a good test to see if this is true: gender-flip God, Jesus, and all the apostles.

Jesus as the daughter of Goddess, who travelled with 12 female apostles, and was best friends with a character who has debatable status as a male prostitute.

Can you imagine this? Would it be acceptible?

Good luck with that Gospel!

 

[Riverwolf]

Good luck with that Gospel!

Why? What's the problem?

 

[paarsurrey]

Women are not second class citizens in Catholicism

@PopeADope
Does Catholicism provide any inheritance rights, equal to men or lesser? Please quote from Gospels. Right?
Regards

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This thread is a joke, no? The Church has long had a pathological hatred of women. It is an organization run by anti-sexual celibate men who are often psychologically stunted in their development (this was actually found to be common among the clergy in research into the causes of the clerical abuse of children).

"Church Doctors and Fathers
· [For women] the very consciousness of their own nature must evoke feelings of shame.–Saint Clement of Alexandria, Christian theologian (c150-215) Pedagogues II, 33, 2

· In pain shall you bring forth children, woman, and you shall turn to your husband and he shall rule over you. And do you not know that you are Eve? God’s sentence hangs still over all your sex and His punishment weighs down upon you. You are the devil’s gateway; you are she who first violated the forbidden tree and broke the law of God. It was you who coaxed your way around him whom the devil had not the force to attack. With what ease you shattered that image of God: Man! Because of the death you merited, even the Son of God had to die... Woman, you are the gate to hell. –Tertullian, “the father of Latin Christianity” (c160-225)

· Woman is a temple built over a sewer.–Tertullian, “the father of Latin Christianity” (c160-225)

· Woman was merely man's helpmate, a function which pertains to her alone. She is not the image of God but as far as man is concerned, he is by himself the image of God. –Saint Augustine, Bishop of Hippo Regius (354-430)

· Woman does not possess the image of God in herself but only when taken together with the male who is her head, so that the whole substance is one image. But when she is assigned the role as helpmate, a function that pertains to her alone, then she is not the image of God. But as far as the man is concerned, he is by himself alone the image of God just as fully and completely as when he and the woman are joined together into one. –Saint Augustine, Bishop of Hippo Regius (354-430)

· Woman is a misbegotten man and has a faulty and defective nature in comparison to his. Therefore she is unsure in herself. What she cannot get, she seeks to obtain through lying and diabolical deceptions. And so, to put it briefly, one must be on one's guard with every woman, as if she were a poisonous snake and the horned devil. ... Thus in evil and perverse doings woman is cleverer, that is, slyer, than man. Her feelings drive woman toward every evil, just as reason impels man toward all good. –Saint Albertus Magnus, Dominican theologian, 13th century

· As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence. –Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church, 13th century"
http://www.alternet.org/belief/20-v...-religious-leaders-st-augustine-pat-robertson

Lots more here: http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/gaf_women.htm

As for how the Church lauds some women, let's look at the traits of some of them. The Virgin Mary is submissive, chaste and asexual. She is the highest standard for all women but she's also completely unrealistic. Furthermore, Mary is also said to have been exempted from Original Sin by God.

Then you have all the nuns and female mystics. Most of them were delusional, many of their visions were highly sexual in nature (especially the severe ascetics like St. Teresa of Avila), most of them practiced severe mortifications (St. Therese of Lisieux, among many others, enjoyed whipping herself bloody in penance; sadomasochism in thought and in action is very deeply embedded into Catholicism) and many of them actually went insane from all the repression, among other things - "convent hysteria". To be fair, the men of the Church weren't/aren't any more mentally stable and did/do the same things.

Oh, and those "incorruptible saints"? It's called wax. They make wax hands, wax feet and wax masks to cover up their rotten corpses. I don't know of one example of a so-called "incorruptible saint" that isn't either covered in wax or some sort of rotted mummy. Some of them, they don't even bother covering up and we're all just supposed to smile and pretend that they smell of roses and look fresh. (You have to wonder why we're expected to swoon over corpses and venerate images of violence, death and suffering in the first place.)

I know you're struggling with your faith - so am I. But the truth is that Catholicism is one of the most pathological and superstitious religions around. It has its beauty, but it's very depressing, dark and has a tendency to lead to or encourage self-hatred. I'm thinking of dropping it and trying to deprogram myself from Christianity because it's not a healthy religion, in my experience and from what I've learned about it.

 

[Spiderman]

This thread is a joke, no? The Church has long had a pathological hatred of women. It is an organization run by anti-sexual celibate men who are often psychologically stunted in their development (this was actually found to be common among the clergy in research into the causes of the clerical abuse of children).

"Church Doctors and Fathers
· [For women] the very consciousness of their own nature must evoke feelings of shame.–Saint Clement of Alexandria, Christian theologian (c150-215) Pedagogues II, 33, 2

· In pain shall you bring forth children, woman, and you shall turn to your husband and he shall rule over you. And do you not know that you are Eve? God’s sentence hangs still over all your sex and His punishment weighs down upon you. You are the devil’s gateway; you are she who first violated the forbidden tree and broke the law of God. It was you who coaxed your way around him whom the devil had not the force to attack. With what ease you shattered that image of God: Man! Because of the death you merited, even the Son of God had to die... Woman, you are the gate to hell. –Tertullian, “the father of Latin Christianity” (c160-225)

· Woman is a temple built over a sewer.–Tertullian, “the father of Latin Christianity” (c160-225)

· Woman was merely man's helpmate, a function which pertains to her alone. She is not the image of God but as far as man is concerned, he is by himself the image of God. –Saint Augustine, Bishop of Hippo Regius (354-430)

· Woman does not possess the image of God in herself but only when taken together with the male who is her head, so that the whole substance is one image. But when she is assigned the role as helpmate, a function that pertains to her alone, then she is not the image of God. But as far as the man is concerned, he is by himself alone the image of God just as fully and completely as when he and the woman are joined together into one. –Saint Augustine, Bishop of Hippo Regius (354-430)

· Woman is a misbegotten man and has a faulty and defective nature in comparison to his. Therefore she is unsure in herself. What she cannot get, she seeks to obtain through lying and diabolical deceptions. And so, to put it briefly, one must be on one's guard with every woman, as if she were a poisonous snake and the horned devil. ... Thus in evil and perverse doings woman is cleverer, that is, slyer, than man. Her feelings drive woman toward every evil, just as reason impels man toward all good. –Saint Albertus Magnus, Dominican theologian, 13th century

· As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence. –Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church, 13th century"
http://www.alternet.org/belief/20-v...-religious-leaders-st-augustine-pat-robertson

Lots more here: http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/gaf_women.htm

As for how the Church lauds some women, let's look at the traits of some of them. The Virgin Mary is submissive, chaste and asexual. She is the highest standard for all women but she's also completely unrealistic. Furthermore, Mary is also said to have been exempted from Original Sin by God.

Then you have all the nuns and female mystics. Most of them were delusional, many of their visions were highly sexual in nature (especially the severe ascetics like St. Teresa of Avila), most of them practiced severe mortifications (St. Therese of Lisieux, among many others, enjoyed whipping herself bloody in penance; sadomasochism in thought and in action is very deeply embedded into Catholicism) and many of them actually went insane from all the repression, among other things - "convent hysteria". To be fair, the men of the Church weren't/aren't any more mentally stable and did/do the same things.

Oh, and those "incorruptible saints"? It's called wax. They make wax hands, wax feet and wax masks to cover up their rotten corpses. I don't know of one example of a so-called "incorruptible saint" that isn't either covered in wax or some sort of rotted mummy. Some of them, they don't even bother covering up and we're all just supposed to smile and pretend that they smell of roses and look fresh. (You have to wonder why we're expected to swoon over corpses and venerate images of violence, death and suffering in the first place.)

I know you're struggling with your faith - so am I. But the truth is that Catholicism is one of the most pathological and superstitious religions around. It has its beauty, but it's very depressing, dark and has a tendency to lead to or encourage self-hatred. I'm thinking of dropping it and trying to deprogram myself from Christianity because it's not a healthy religion, in my experience and from what I've learned about it.

The Church acknowledges that the Saints and the popes have been wrong about all kinds of things. Those quotes are not all reflections of the church.

The point I was making in this thread is if the church hated women, it wouldn't have more shrines , miracles , churches ,and venerations of women than of men or call the greatest saint of modern times as well as the greatest saint of ancient time both women, if women Were Somehow less than or were despised.

 

[Spiderman]

This thread is a joke, no? The Church has long had a pathological hatred of women. It is an organization run by anti-sexual celibate men who are often psychologically stunted in their development (this was actually found to be common among the clergy in research into the causes of the clerical abuse of children).

"Church Doctors and Fathers
· [For women] the very consciousness of their own nature must evoke feelings of shame.–Saint Clement of Alexandria, Christian theologian (c150-215) Pedagogues II, 33, 2

· In pain shall you bring forth children, woman, and you shall turn to your husband and he shall rule over you. And do you not know that you are Eve? God’s sentence hangs still over all your sex and His punishment weighs down upon you. You are the devil’s gateway; you are she who first violated the forbidden tree and broke the law of God. It was you who coaxed your way around him whom the devil had not the force to attack. With what ease you shattered that image of God: Man! Because of the death you merited, even the Son of God had to die... Woman, you are the gate to hell. –Tertullian, “the father of Latin Christianity” (c160-225)

· Woman is a temple built over a sewer.–Tertullian, “the father of Latin Christianity” (c160-225)

· Woman was merely man's helpmate, a function which pertains to her alone. She is not the image of God but as far as man is concerned, he is by himself the image of God. –Saint Augustine, Bishop of Hippo Regius (354-430)

· Woman does not possess the image of God in herself but only when taken together with the male who is her head, so that the whole substance is one image. But when she is assigned the role as helpmate, a function that pertains to her alone, then she is not the image of God. But as far as the man is concerned, he is by himself alone the image of God just as fully and completely as when he and the woman are joined together into one. –Saint Augustine, Bishop of Hippo Regius (354-430)

· Woman is a misbegotten man and has a faulty and defective nature in comparison to his. Therefore she is unsure in herself. What she cannot get, she seeks to obtain through lying and diabolical deceptions. And so, to put it briefly, one must be on one's guard with every woman, as if she were a poisonous snake and the horned devil. ... Thus in evil and perverse doings woman is cleverer, that is, slyer, than man. Her feelings drive woman toward every evil, just as reason impels man toward all good. –Saint Albertus Magnus, Dominican theologian, 13th century

· As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence. –Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church, 13th century"
http://www.alternet.org/belief/20-v...-religious-leaders-st-augustine-pat-robertson

Lots more here: http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/gaf_women.htm

As for how the Church lauds some women, let's look at the traits of some of them. The Virgin Mary is submissive, chaste and asexual. She is the highest standard for all women but she's also completely unrealistic. Furthermore, Mary is also said to have been exempted from Original Sin by God.

Then you have all the nuns and female mystics. Most of them were delusional, many of their visions were highly sexual in nature (especially the severe ascetics like St. Teresa of Avila), most of them practiced severe mortifications (St. Therese of Lisieux, among many others, enjoyed whipping herself bloody in penance; sadomasochism in thought and in action is very deeply embedded into Catholicism) and many of them actually went insane from all the repression, among other things - "convent hysteria". To be fair, the men of the Church weren't/aren't any more mentally stable and did/do the same things.

Oh, and those "incorruptible saints"? It's called wax. They make wax hands, wax feet and wax masks to cover up their rotten corpses. I don't know of one example of a so-called "incorruptible saint" that isn't either covered in wax or some sort of rotted mummy. Some of them, they don't even bother covering up and we're all just supposed to smile and pretend that they smell of roses and look fresh. (You have to wonder why we're expected to swoon over corpses and venerate images of violence, death and suffering in the first place.)

I know you're struggling with your faith - so am I. But the truth is that Catholicism is one of the most pathological and superstitious religions around. It has its beauty, but it's very depressing, dark and has a tendency to lead to or encourage self-hatred. I'm thinking of dropping it and trying to deprogram myself from Christianity because it's not a healthy religion, in my experience and from what I've learned about it.

Yes you are correct, there is a very dark depressing side of Catholicism that leads to despair, depression, self-hatred, and medieval superstition.

It bothers me tremendously ,and a lot of what leads people to think that way is not anything in the catechism, teachings of the church magisterium, or binding dogmas, but rather the fallible writings of very fallible people the church has canonized as "Saints."

I'm trying rather than leave the church, to show the beauty in Catholicism (because we have had many beautiful people like Mother Teresa of calcutta's, st. Clairs, Padre pios, and st. Francis of Assisi's) that the beautiful side of Catholicism can bring light , peace, and consolation to someone else.

I hope I can do that, without insisting they have to believe what I do. Try to do good within the church rather than without the Church.

I know the evil the church has done ,and it makes me cringe and feel ashamed to have to defend the church in view of such things.

On the same token, I have been to missions and monasteries where there are enourmous amounts of people who are fed for free. I worked at a mission in Buffalo New York where blocks full of houses were given to people for free.

There was a free mini-mall , hundreds of people fed for free every single day, they had cared for the sick, sheltered people who are actively involved in homosexual relationships (and aids patients ) without judging or condemning anyone.

I have seen the church doing more of the acts that Christ told us to do in Matthew 25. "I was hungry and you gave me to eat , thirsty and you gave me to drink, Naked And you clothed me, in prison and you visited me, sick and you cared for me , was a stranger and you welcomed me...what you did for the least of my people you did for me . Come inherit your Eternal reward.

 

[Spiderman]

BTW Saint Frank, I am thoroughly disgusted with some of the very fallible opinions of many of our "Church Fathers", especially St. Augustine. So thanks for the reminder though

What do you think of the non-Catholic Christian theology where there's no place for women in a person's Spiritual Devotions , or that Mary is no more holy or favoured by God than them?

Isn't that making women inferior, to have devotion only to a male figure?

I know of people like myself who are not able to get many Graces going to a Father figure , but the Marian apparitions, the Rosary, and going to Mother Mary seems to be meeting our needs, and it seems like Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are the only places you will find that in an Abrahamic faith (with the exception of an occasional Anglican).

 

[Sees]

This thread is a joke, no? The Church has long had a pathological hatred of women. It is an organization run by anti-sexual celibate men who are often psychologically stunted in their development (this was actually found to be common among the clergy in research into the causes of the clerical abuse of children).

"Church Doctors and Fathers
· [For women] the very consciousness of their own nature must evoke feelings of shame.–Saint Clement of Alexandria, Christian theologian (c150-215) Pedagogues II, 33, 2

· In pain shall you bring forth children, woman, and you shall turn to your husband and he shall rule over you. And do you not know that you are Eve? God’s sentence hangs still over all your sex and His punishment weighs down upon you. You are the devil’s gateway; you are she who first violated the forbidden tree and broke the law of God. It was you who coaxed your way around him whom the devil had not the force to attack. With what ease you shattered that image of God: Man! Because of the death you merited, even the Son of God had to die... Woman, you are the gate to hell. –Tertullian, “the father of Latin Christianity” (c160-225)

· Woman is a temple built over a sewer.–Tertullian, “the father of Latin Christianity” (c160-225)

· Woman was merely man's helpmate, a function which pertains to her alone. She is not the image of God but as far as man is concerned, he is by himself the image of God. –Saint Augustine, Bishop of Hippo Regius (354-430)

· Woman does not possess the image of God in herself but only when taken together with the male who is her head, so that the whole substance is one image. But when she is assigned the role as helpmate, a function that pertains to her alone, then she is not the image of God. But as far as the man is concerned, he is by himself alone the image of God just as fully and completely as when he and the woman are joined together into one. –Saint Augustine, Bishop of Hippo Regius (354-430)

· Woman is a misbegotten man and has a faulty and defective nature in comparison to his. Therefore she is unsure in herself. What she cannot get, she seeks to obtain through lying and diabolical deceptions. And so, to put it briefly, one must be on one's guard with every woman, as if she were a poisonous snake and the horned devil. ... Thus in evil and perverse doings woman is cleverer, that is, slyer, than man. Her feelings drive woman toward every evil, just as reason impels man toward all good. –Saint Albertus Magnus, Dominican theologian, 13th century

· As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence. –Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church, 13th century"
http://www.alternet.org/belief/20-v...-religious-leaders-st-augustine-pat-robertson

Lots more here: http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/gaf_women.htm

As for how the Church lauds some women, let's look at the traits of some of them. The Virgin Mary is submissive, chaste and asexual. She is the highest standard for all women but she's also completely unrealistic. Furthermore, Mary is also said to have been exempted from Original Sin by God.

Then you have all the nuns and female mystics. Most of them were delusional, many of their visions were highly sexual in nature (especially the severe ascetics like St. Teresa of Avila), most of them practiced severe mortifications (St. Therese of Lisieux, among many others, enjoyed whipping herself bloody in penance; sadomasochism in thought and in action is very deeply embedded into Catholicism) and many of them actually went insane from all the repression, among other things - "convent hysteria". To be fair, the men of the Church weren't/aren't any more mentally stable and did/do the same things.

Oh, and those "incorruptible saints"? It's called wax. They make wax hands, wax feet and wax masks to cover up their rotten corpses. I don't know of one example of a so-called "incorruptible saint" that isn't either covered in wax or some sort of rotted mummy. Some of them, they don't even bother covering up and we're all just supposed to smile and pretend that they smell of roses and look fresh. (You have to wonder why we're expected to swoon over corpses and venerate images of violence, death and suffering in the first place.)

I know you're struggling with your faith - so am I. But the truth is that Catholicism is one of the most pathological and superstitious religions around. It has its beauty, but it's very depressing, dark and has a tendency to lead to or encourage self-hatred. I'm thinking of dropping it and trying to deprogram myself from Christianity because it's not a healthy religion, in my experience and from what I've learned about it.

Wow, I hadn't read most of those before. Can't imagine people reading that out loud to the females in their own family.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

BTW Saint Frank, I am thoroughly disgusted with some of the very fallible opinions of many of our "Church Fathers", especially St. Augustine. So thanks for the reminder though

What do you think of the non-Catholic Christian theology where there's no place for women in a person's Spiritual Devotions , or that Mary is no more holy or favoured by God than them?

Isn't that making women inferior, to have devotion only to a male figure?

I know of people like myself who are not able to get many Graces going to a Father figure , but the Marian apparitions, the Rosary, and going to Mother Mary seems to be meeting our needs, and it seems like Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are the only places you will find that in an Abrahamic faith (with the exception of an occasional Anglican).

I think that devotion to Mary and female saints is fine. Catholicism and Orthodoxy have the richest theologies out of all the Christian denominations. That's a definite strength. There's something for almost everyone. Catholicism, especially, has a long tradition of absorbing the practices and figures of the local cultures it has come into contact with and the people tend to carry on their indigenous practices through syncretism. (We see this especially in examples such as Our Lady of Guadalupe really being the continuation of the cult of the Aztec Goddess, Tonantzin, and how West African diaspora religion has been combined with Catholicism throughout the Americas.) This gives global Catholicism a diversity that is fairly unequaled in other global religions. The Catholic Church is really a grouping of various related Christian practices that are unified under a common hierarchy and overall dogmas.

 

[Spiderman]

Wow, I hadn't read most of those before. Can't imagine people reading that out loud to the females in their own family.

and none of those are found in any teachings of the church magisterium or the catechism.

Opinions are like rectums. Everyone has one and some stink more than others.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Wow, I hadn't read most of those before. Can't imagine people reading that out loud to the females in their own family.

It reminds me of when, at Mass, one of the readings is those verses from Paul that says that a woman shouldn't teach or hold authority over a man, etc. That particular part is always in brackets in the lectionary, so the reader is free to skip over them if they choose. Anyway, the female readers always skip that part and the male readers always read it. Tsk tsk. Lol.

 

[Spiderman]

I think that devotion to Mary and female saints is fine. Catholicism and Orthodoxy have the richest theologies out of all the Christian denominations. That's a definite strength. There's something for almost everyone. Catholicism, especially, has a long tradition of absorbing the practices and figures of the local cultures it has come into contact with and the people tend to carry on their indigenous practices through syncretism. (We see this especially in examples such as Our Lady of Guadalupe really being the continuation of the cult of the Aztec Goddess, Tonantzin, and how West African diaspora religion has been combined with Catholicism throughout the Americas.) This gives global Catholicism a diversity that is fairly unequaled in other global religions. The Catholic Church is really a grouping of various related Christian practices that are unified under a common hierarchy and overall dogmas.

that is how the church shall remain durable, Forever Strong and influential, and always more welcoming to those who belong to cultures or Religions that fundamentalists are hostile towards. I find the church to also be more science-friendly than fundamentalists

Well Frank, you are a rational thinker and have done your studies. God loves you and the church is sorry to see you go. I don't fault you for giving up on the church , but don't give up on God or prayer. Bless u!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

and none of those are found in any teachings of the church magisterium or the catechism.

Opinions are like rectums. Everyone has one and some stink more than others.

To be fair, a lot of the early Church was influenced by Gnosticism and many variants of Gnosticism had negative views of women (Augustine was a Manichean for a while and this greatly influenced his views, even after he left it, for example). Plus, women tend to be associated with sensuality, temptation and sexuality (for somewhat obvious reasons), and asceticism was very popular in both Gnosticism and in mainline Christianity. Asceticism has a negative view of the material world and is pretty anti-sexual. Many of the early male Christians castrated themselves (such as Origen), in order to remove their sexuality and further disassociate from the world. So when you put those things together, the pathological anti-female and anti-sex views were a logical conclusion.