Women are not second class citizens in Catholicism.

[Spiderman]

I hear it all the time that the Catholic Church has contempt for Women. Not true! The Catholic Church exalts Mary above all creatures and credits more power, glory, exaltation, and praise to women in the Church than men because most certified miracles are credited to females.

There are far more millions of pilgrims each year that go to shrines and tombs of women more than men. The most common names of Catholic Churches are female. The most incorruptibles (bodies so sanctified and pure that they miraculously never decomposed) on display are women:

Saint Bernadette, whom Mary appeared to and brought forth a spring that healed many physically, psychologically, and Spiritually. Hundreds of years after her death, she looks like she is sleeping.
Saint Catherine Laboure:

After the Rosary, She recieved the second most common sacramental in the world after the Rosary was given to her. It started out as the medal of the Immaculate conception but after it was responsible for so many miracles, people began to call it "the miraculous medal."

The Pope himself declared that the greatest Saint of modern time is Saint Therese the little flower. She had no glory, honor, or good reputation in this life. They called her the little flower because of her humility. She was little and childlike. The Pope recognized her as far more powerful, Holy, virtuous, greater intercessory power, and more favored by God than himself and all Popes and Bishops of modern time.

Jesus chose twelve men to be Apostles, and the Old testament Priests were men. The Apostles were the equivalent of Bishops. They were not very edifying. Peter denied him three times, the Apostles ran away like cowards save for John. The women were at the foot of the cross, more loyal, courageous, and charitable than the Apostles.

Despite the photos you see of all the Cardinals, Bishops, and Popes together looking like an all boys club, it says nothing of their holiness. They are more CEO's and administrators answering phone calls, dealing with finances, ordaining priests, baptizing people, hearing confessions, going to court to deal with scandals etc. So with all that hustle, bustle, dealing with money, wearing fancy robes, and a miter is not conducive for holiness.

God loves women (is crazy about them), for they are His brides, so through the Church he makes them first place, to the point where they are honored more and bring the most grace. Once again, the Church has attributed far more miracles to women than to men.

The Church encourages pilgrimages to shrines and tombs of women more than to men. The percentage of Saints who were Diocesan priests or Bishops is very low because they are administrators and have little time to grow in holiness.

It is good the Catholic Church conquers and excessively empowers and exalts the Brides of Christ , because it balances out the Protestant idea that we can only turn to a man. Women are more powerful. Queen Esther in the Old Testament found favor with the King and saved Israel from destruction. That is what goes on in Heaven.

"King Xerxes and Haman went to the dinner. Again the king said, "Tell me what you want. I will give it to you!" Queen Esther answered, "Please save my people, and my own life," she said. "Haman wants to kill all of us!"

The king became very angry with Haman and had him punished. He then made a new law to save all the people of Israel, including Queen Esther. Because Queen Esther spoke up to the king, the nation of Israel was saved."

http://www.biblewise.com/kids/fun/esther-the-queen.php

All the Priests and men combined could not save Israel. Only Esther could could melt the Kings heart and save the nation. She was a Jew yet became Queen of Iran, a nation that currently hates Israel just like they did back then. She accomplished the impossible. The Church Fathers declared Queen Esther to be a type of and prefigurement of Mother Mary.

“Don’t be afraid, Mary,” the angel told her, “for you have found favor with God! You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus… For nothing is impossible with God.” Mary responded, “I am the Lord’s servant. May everything you have said about me come true.” And then the angel left her.” [Luke 1:30-31;37-38]

They were both Jewish Queens. Both were full of Grace and favored by the King. The king asked her, ‘What do you want, Queen Esther? What is your request? I will give it to you, even if it is half the kingdom!’” [Esther 4:11;14-5:3]

At the wedding of Cana God worked His first public miracle, turning water into wine and He did so reluctantly because his "hour had not yet come" to work miracles. (and Im sure He didn't care about people running out of wine [and getting them more drunk lol].

He did so because Queen Mary asked him to. He obeys her and will do what He doesn't want to do if she asks him to. Pretty cool

 

[Spiderman]

This thread is kind of like another one I had, but I was hoping also for one where I could debate. There is a possibility that starting tomorrow sometime , I will not have access to Internet for a week , but I can assure you I will eventually thoroughly refute any of your claims that the Catholic Church is sexist or misogynistic.

A blessed day to you and may all who are reading this be surrounded by Angels and Saints who protect, build a hedge of protection around you, pray blessings over you night and day, and lead you to eternal bliss, pleasure, and wealth. In Jesus name!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

They can't be priests. So women are obviously not equal.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Women are turned into walking incubators by the Church's 'pro-life' position as well as laws enacted in countries like the Republic of Ireland - laws which are based heavily (if not entirely) on Catholic dogma. Incubators whose rights & bodily autonomy are completely subsumed by the ball of cells in their wombs.

Men don't have their rights nor their bodily autonomy stolen by patriarchal doctrine in any way.

 

[Spiderman]

They can't be priests. So women are obviously not equal.

Priesthood is simply a title. It has nothing to do with a person's standing before God. There are housewives, cleaning ladies, and people who do nothing to deserve much praise, who the Church acknowledges as having a higher standing than the Popes and Bishops.

Women and men are different, plain and simple. We have different gifts. Women can do what is impossible for a man to do. In that sense, yes, we are not equal. But when it comes to what the Church recognizes, women have more power, influence over God, are more sufficient instruments of grace, and therefore they can alter events throughout the world better than Men. the Church clearly recognizes women as outdoing men and more favored by God.

 

[Deathbydefault]

I wouldn't say the Catholic church holds them in contempt, but rather vitriol.
There are quite a few more holds and expectations placed on women, not to mention the various rules and regulations.
Then when you talk about how they use virginity as a control mechanism...

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The Catholic Church exalts Mary above all creatures and credits more power, glory, exaltation, and praise to women in the Church than men because most certified miracles are credited to females.

She's famous for childbirth, not because she was a great woman.

The Pope himself declared that the greatest Saint of modern time is Saint Therese the little flower. She had no glory, honor, or good reputation in this life.

How is this helping the argument the Church values women? The pope is essentially praising her for being someone they didn't feel needed equality.

Jesus chose twelve men to be Apostles, and the Old testament Priests were men. The Apostles were the equivalent of Bishops. They were not very edifying. Peter denied him three times, the Apostles ran away like cowards save for John. The women were at the foot of the cross, more loyal, courageous, and charitable than the Apostles.

And yet the women's presence in the Church is constantly downplayed and the Vatican STILL says that only men can be apostles, when we only have cowards as examples.

The Church encourages pilgrimages to shrines and tombs of women more than to men. The percentage of Saints who were Diocesan priests or Bishops is very low because they are administrators and have little time to grow in holiness.

Be a Catholic woman! Be more valued in death than in life!

Queen Esther in the Old Testament found favor with the King and saved Israel from destruction. That is what goes on in Heaven.

Be the rebound sex toy! Be chosen SPECIFICALLY because you were not only hot as hell, but also you weren't wanting, like, rights and stuff, like that FIRST wife...

I mean, at least Deborah and Jael(I think it was her) have more awesome stories where they do cool stuff outside of having sex with men...

Priesthood is simply a title.

If it's just a title, then there's no harm in giving it to women.

Women and men are different, plain and simple. We have different gifts.

What gifts are required other than penises? There are NO women who could handle religious administration? Really?

 

[Spiderman]

Women are turned into walking incubators by the Church's 'pro-life' - incubators whose rights & bodily autonomy are completely subsumed by the ball of cells in their wombs.

Men don't have their rights nor their bodily autonomy stolen by patriarchal doctrine in any way.

The Church cannot approve of the killing of a child.

I have been to prison and seen the sociopathic behavior of unwanted pregnancies and the amount of suffering people from dysfunctional families or without a father cause others and go through themselves.

When I see this, the thought that goes through my head is how much suffering they would save themselves and those around them if they were aborted. However, the Church has to draw the line. It is the killing of a human being. It is evil but I confess that in many cases, it is the lesser of the two evils, in my humble opinion.

But, once again, the Church cannot approve of the killing of an innocent, defenseless human being.

 

[Riverwolf]

Pedestal sexism is still sexist.

 

[Deathbydefault]

But, once again, the Church cannot approve of the killing of an innocent, defenseless human being.

No but it can /forgive/ it.
Isn't the catholic church oh so un-rightfully famous for their ability to abolish sins and forgive people?
We don't ask that you all condone abortion, just that you don't interfere with a woman's freedom of choice.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

When I see this, the thought that goes through my head is how much suffering they would save themselves and those around them if they were aborted. However, the Church has to draw the line. It is the killing of a human being. It is evil but I confess that in many cases, it is the lesser of the two evils, in my humble opinion.

It's also unbiblical. You are a person when you are born and take your first breath in the bible. Nothing in the bible even remotely adds up to "value the zygote as you would a postnatal human being."

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The Church cannot approve of the killing of a child.

I have been to prison and seen the sociopathic behavior of unwanted pregnancies and the amount of suffering people from dysfunctional families or without a father cause others and go through themselves.

When I see this, the thought that goes through my head is how much suffering they would save themselves and those around them if they were aborted. However, the Church has to draw the line. It is the killing of a human being. It is evil but I confess that in many cases, it is the lesser of the two evils, in my humble opinion.

But, once again, the Church cannot approve of the killing of an innocent, defenseless human being.

Kind of a shame that any moral position the Church takes is cancelled out by the suffering of the mother and the future suffering of the child if it is either abused or abandoned because it is unwanted. On the matter of influencing laws, I think the Church should be held culpable for the death of Savita Halappanavar in Ireland - who was refused a medically-necessary abortion because of the way the country's abortion law (influenced by the Church) was worded. The mother died - even though the foetus was already dead - as a direct result of the Church's 'pro-life' position and it's affect on Irish law.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I mean, if one browsed my family tree, it would be a benefit to humanity to convince some of the previous branches not to have kids ... I, for one, will do my duty to the safety of the future human race by not reproducing.

 

[Spiderman]

She's famous for childbirth, not because she was a great woman.


How is this helping the argument the Church values women? The pope is essentially praising her for being someone they didn't feel needed equality.


And yet the women's presence in the Church is constantly downplayed and the Vatican STILL says that only men can be apostles, when we only have cowards as examples.


Be a Catholic woman! Be more valued in death than in life!


Be the rebound sex toy! Be chosen SPECIFICALLY because you were not only hot as hell, but also you weren't wanting, like, rights and stuff, like that FIRST wife...

I mean, at least Deborah and Jael(I think it was her) have more awesome stories where they do cool stuff outside of having sex with men...


If it's just a title, then there's no harm in giving it to women.


What gifts are required other than penises? There are NO women who could handle religious administration? Really?

Women have administrative positions in the Church.

Do you know what the Doctors of the Church are? Some of them have been women, and that role is even more important and influential than the Pope. in 2,000 years there have only been 33 Doctors of the Church. Women can have all the same traits as any great pope, but they can never be a father, as the Holy Father is. Of course, a pope can't be a mother.

The male Doctors of the Church I find annoying. Catherine of Sienna, a Dominican stigmatic, has books where almost the entire book is God the Father speaking to her, and I find it more clear, eloquent, and helpful than the Bible or any other books I can think of written by men, save for "True Devotion to Mary" by Louis De Montfort.
She was a politician.
She was a stigmatic (received the wounds of Christ).

God raised up Saint Catherine of Sienna to rebuke, correct, and bring a goofy Pope back to Rome. She was the greatest of her time, as Saint Bridget of Sweden, patron Saint of Europe, was the greatest of her time. Saint Teresa of Avila was the greatest of her time, Saint Therese the little flower was the greatest of her time. Mother Mary was the greatest of her time.

A Mother can be far more influential in changing hearts than a Father. Men Can't be Mothers. Men cannot influence the world like women can, pure and simple. This means women are different and have great advantages. Men have advantages as well. Women are priests according to the Church. It's just that they are not ministerial priests.

The Church is being Biblical and keeping to the traditions of the Bible. There is nothing in this tradition that makes women less than men.

 

[Spiderman]

Pedestal sexism is still sexist.

I do not agree. Is drafting men for Vietnam and them coming home in body bags, wheelchairs, missing limbs, burned from head to toe, in wheel chairs, blind, deaf, disfigured etc. sexist?

Men are treated differently.

Men die 93.1% more often on the job than women http://riderrants.blogspot.com/2015/05/gender-pay-inequality-men-do-risky-jobs.html

That is because there are jobs men are on average more fit for than women , and often those are very dangerous jobs. So, who knows, it isn't that great being men. We also commit suicide more often.

 

[Spiderman]

I mean, if one browsed my family tree, it would be a benefit to humanity to convince some of the previous branches not to have kids ... I, for one, will do my duty to the safety of the future human race by not reproducing.

Yes. I'm supposed to be a non-rebellious Catholic, but Father please forgive me for using common sense.

I have been in multiple psychiatric wards and multiple drug overdoses. I have bipolar. I hope the abuse I inflicted on myself has made me sterile. I don't want to pass this curse on.

 

[Spiderman]

Jael!

Judges 4
4 Now Deborah, a prophet, the wife of Lappidoth, was leadinga]">[a] Israel at that time.

6 She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, “The Lord, the God of Israel, commands you: ‘Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead them up to Mount Tabor. 7 I will lead Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.’”

(She had control of the military and everything. Like Joan of Arc.)\

....
0 “Stand in the doorway of the tent,” he told her. “If someone comes by and asks you, ‘Is anyone in there?’ say ‘No.’”
21 But Jael, Heber’s wife, picked up a tent peg and a hammer and went quietly to him while he lay fast asleep, exhausted. She drove the peg through his temple into the ground, and he died...
“Come,” she said, “I will show you the man you’re looking for.” So he went in with her, and there lay Sisera with the tent peg through his temple—dead.
23 On that day God subdued Jabin king of Canaan before the Israelites. 24 And the hand of the Israelites pressed harder and harder against Jabin king of Canaan until they destroyed him.

She's incredible. My buddy

 

[Spiderman]

The Church put Judith in the original Bible. With no credibility for doing so, Martin Luther took it out. He is saying the very people who decided the canon of the New Testament that He adores, made mistakes in the OT. Jesus Christ!

"Judith's Plan

After purifying herself and praying diligently, Judith was ready to go forth. She put aside her garments of mourning (which she had worn for three and a half years since the death of her husband). She adorned herself with perfume, fine clothes, and jewelry. She took on the identity of a beautiful seductress. Along with her maid, she left through the gates of the city. Any men that saw her were immediately awestruck by her beauty.

It was not long before they approached the Assyrian outpost. The men took her into custody and asked what in the world she was doing there. She replied that she was fleeing her people because they were about to be conquered for violating the laws of God (see, how nicely this fits in with Achior's prophecy!). She asked to see Holofernes and promised to give him a trustworthy report on how he could take the city without any cost to his army.

Upon seeing her, Holofernes marveled at the beauty of her face and was only too anxious to be gracious to her. Despite her promise to give a "trustworthy report," Judith equivocated with the truth. She said, "I will say nothing false to my lord."

Of course Holofernes, thought she was talking about him, but Judith had only one Lord – God. Everything she said to Holofernes was completely deceptive.She could swear by Nebuchadnezzar because he meant nothing to her. Swearing by the God of the Israelites was the only swearing that counted. So Judith cunningly wove words and expounded more Deuteronomic theology – all the while knowing that the Israelites had been a faithful people. She ended by saying, "God has sent me to accomplish with you things that will astonish the world." Again, this is very ironic. Holofernes was thinking along one line, Judith another.

For three days, Judith lived in the Assyrian camp, establishing a pattern and gaining their confidence. Early each morning, she and her maid went out of the camp to pray, which showed her to be in complete control of the situation. The men continued to be smitten with her beauty to the extent that no one questioned any of her movements.

On the fourth day, Holofernes planned a huge banquet for his servants that did not include any of his soldiers. He intended to seduce Judith, yet held her in such high esteem that he was very deferential towards her. She accepted the invitation to attend, and again dressed up in all her finery. She hinted that Holofernes would have his way with her, which only heightened his desire for her.

After drinking way too much wine, Holofernes passed out and his servant gently closed the tent leaving Judith alone with him. She took advantage of the situation and beheaded him, much in the same fashion that Jael killed Sisera with the tent peg or stake (See Judges 4:17-22). Early in the morning, she and the maid left as usual to pray, only this time they had his head in their bag.

Again, no one stopped or questioned them.
http://www.biblewise.com/bible_study/apocrypha/judith.php

She is a good friend to have on your side! Once again, a woman single handedly saved an entire nation. All priests combined could not accomplish what she did.

 

[Riverwolf]

I do not agree.

Would you be flattered if you were treated like a delicate ornament that had to be protected and revered your whole life, to the point where you had no voice or agency of your own?

Putting women on pedestals deprives them of their own voice and agency. That's why it's sexist.

 

[Deidre]

Jesus treated men and women, equally. The Catholic Church actually treats women less equitably, than its men. I think I'll just follow Jesus.