My main point is how do we believe what ISKCON says when it has corrupted the histories of other scholars by its injections ? I mean come on....Chaitanya has no work to his name, just because someone writes a history centuries later about chaitanya doing this, doing that, its not logical in my opinion to believe in such a fantasy. Why ISCKON does this is beyond me ! It is not a wonder dvaita school does want to distance itself from isckon and its preaching. I think zero knowledge is better than partial mixed up knowledge as zero knowledge person can sometime gain the perfect knowledge.
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ISKCON debunked by dvaita school
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What of the six goswamis of Vrindavan? They met Chaitainya.
For starters ,as chaitanya has no works, it is absurd to bring him into any vedantik discussions. Second as I mentioned, to further the claim of chaitanya for what vested interests god knows, there were works written centuries later to prove(just as what isckon is doing now corruping history of madhva scholars as having some interactions) chaitanya existed and had interactions. There is a huge broken time frame in between that we see missing here.
निताइ dasa
Nitai's servant's servant
Sikshatakam, Sivastakam etc were all written by Lord Chaitanya. The diary of Swarupa Damodara has evidence of his ideas and concepts. It is sorta irrelevant whether it is primary or secondary, because the Goswamis continued Lord Chaitanya's work and they declared it as such (that I am writing such and such under the order of Lord Caitanya).
For you. You are being awfully biased here can't you see??? There is no basis why anyone can be called a Pramanik acharya unless a school says so. Really, can you not understand that simply concept? Teresaji has said it wonderfully, Lord Chaitanya may not hold any authority over you, but He does over us. Similiarily, Srila Ramanujacharya's teachings hold no sway over us because He isn't part of out Guru Varga. Still we have always tried to give him the highest respect because he was also a Vaishnav/ Your so called claims are weak because you provide no proof to substantiate. You are simply riding on the accusations of someone else, whose arguments were easily refuted by our Gaudiya Acharyas.
Really of-course we do! In Brahma Samhita it is mentioned. In Govinda Bhasya, the mantra from Rg Veda (om tad visnor paramam padam) is also quoted. If you actually read the Govinda Bhasya for starters you would understand the Vedantic basis we have. I mean read this. It is Gaudiya Philosophy in Sutra form and for every claim Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura gives loads of Pramana from Vedas. Vedas are the basis of all schools of Vedanta.
The biographies of Lord Chaitanya were written by His own associates. Chaitanya Charita Maha Kavya (one of them) was written by Murari Gupta who was a childhood friend of Mahaprabhu. He saw all the pastimes of Lord Chaitanya with his eyes. Why would he lie about them? Chaitanya Bhagavata (another biography) was written by Sri Vrndavana das Thakura who was a living disciple of Nityananda Prabhu. He also saw all the pastimes of Lord Nitai Gaur. Again I don't see any reason why he would lie about it. Such is not his character. All the six Goswamis were direct disciples of Lord Chaitanya, and so they were living when they wrote His biographies. Sarvabhauma Bhattacharya, who was a great scholar wrote about Lord Chaitanya in astakams like Sacitanayastakam and Prabhodananda Saraswati (originally Sri Vaishnav) also wrote about Lord Chaitanya in works like Chaitanya Chandramrta. I can provide loads more proof of contemporaries of Lord Chaitanya who wrote about Him.
Let's see what Nitai-dasa has to say, he's much more versed in Gaudiya history than me.
Sivastakam is about Siva and sikshatakam has no prrof it was written by chaitanya
निताइ dasa
Nitai's servant's servant
Where are you getting this from???? . All the biographies of Lord Chaitanya were written either when He was alive or shortly after His disappearance. The Acharya who systematized Gaudiya philosophy into words (Srila Jiva Goswami) was a direct student of Lord Chaitanya.
It was found in Chaitanya Charita Mahakavya and within it, the astakam is clearly attributed to Lord Chaitanya. Sikshastakam is clearly written by Lord Chaitanya because these verses are found both in Swarupa Damodara's diary and Rupa Goswami's Padyavali both attributed to Lord Chaitanya. I think you are really drawing straws here.
which is exactly my point. Some X wrote some history about a person and attribute 1 work to his name, it is called fantasy not real. Also earlier you used according to chaitanya and hence this discussion...There is no 'according to chaitanya' as there are zero works to his name. It is like chaitanya was created out of thin AIR which is sad considering the isckon efforts in rubbing the agenda on us and corrupting other school history as it goes on
Also @निताइ dasa what is your position on GOLAKAS. .Can you quote any supporting thing from gurus of gaudiya explaining paramapadam or Sri Vaikuntam
Also Ratikala almost made me believe that madhva school has accepted this tradition but she is completely wrong and off the mark! Madhvas have distanced you long time back !
Also Ratikala almost made me believe that madhva school has accepted this tradition but she is completely wrong and off the mark! Madhvas have distanced you long time back !
निताइ dasa
Nitai's servant's servant
So that site speaks more for the Madhavs then even the letters from their leaders? Hmmm
Like I said, our support if Brahma Samhita, which I believe I posted in the previous Gaudiya Thread. Also SB 3.15 gives a description too
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Its not from a random author but from Poornaprajna Vidyapeetha and dvaita.org is a reputable site for madhvas
I feel you are skipping the question, what is your position on GOLAKAS. .Can you quote any supporting thing from gurus of gaudiya explaining paramapadam or Sri Vaikuntam
निताइ dasa
Nitai's servant's servant
Sriroor Swami (from Sri Shiroor Mutt, Udupi) wrote the following letter in response to that very article you posted:
"Mispropoganda in www.Dvaita.org between "Sri Madhwacharya and Chaitanya Pantha."
"Sri Chaitanya Sampradaya is a branch of Madhwa philosophy. there are historic proofs to substantiate this fact. The sadhana achieved by Sri A. C. Prabhupada, Acharya of "Chaitanya Sampradaya" is to be welcomed by all Vaishnavites. It is due to him people all over the world have learned about Lord Krishna. This work should have been accomplished by Madhwa followers. But Prabhupada has served the world in propagating this cult. Even in the western world he has attracted a large number of devotees of Lord Krishna, through his discourse on "Bhagavat Geeta." The book on "Bhagavat Geeta" of Sri Prabhupada is allowed to be sold in front of Krishna Mandira at Udupi. This fact is known to all eight mutts of Udupi. As well as all devotees of Udupi Kshetra.
Therefore, the blame cast on Sri Prabhupada is to be deemed as the blame on Sri Hari, Vayu and Guru. This type of behavior is not to be found in a brahmin. As such, it is a bad affair to note that a Vaishnava has exhibited such a behavior. Such contradictory statements do create split in the Vaishnava Society and do not promote any good on the Society.
Therefore we oppose the points relayed through the website.
Sri Laksmivara Tirtha Swami"
Another letter written by Pejavara Swami's Math says:
"We are rather perturbed to come across an article said to contain a statemant issued by Poornaprajna Vidyapeetha about Madhwa and Gaudiya Sampradayas.
We have been emphasizing time and again that even though there are certain difference in a few aspects of the two Sampradayas, there are many more common grounds and Gaudiya Sampradaya is a part of Madhwa Sampradaya. We have great regard for Prabhupada who has spread Vaisnava Bhakti Siddhanta throughout the world.
We have been admiring him on various occasions also. We are pained to find that the article denigrates Prabhupada and is against our opinion and philosophy.
The whole issue will be reviewed and in our capacity as the chancellor of Poornaprajna Vidyapeeta, a message will be shortly published to strengthen the mutual harmonious relationship between the Sampradayas.
Sri Sri Vishwesa Tirtha Swamiiji"
In-fact the article written in Dvaita.com was criticized by Tattvadi leaders from 5 of the Maths of Udupi who defended the Gaudiya Sampradaya and the works of Srila Prabhupada. Their letters can be found here
"sahasra-patra-kamalaḿ
gokulākhyaḿ mahat padam
tat-karṇikāraḿ tad-dhāma
tad-anantāḿśa-sambhavam"
The superexcellent station of Kṛṣṇa, which is known as Gokula, has thousands of petals and a corolla like that of a lotus sprouted from a part of His infinitary aspect, the whorl of the leaves being the actual abode of Kṛṣṇa. (Brahma Samhita 5.2)
goloka-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya
devi maheśa-hari-dhāmasu teṣu teṣu
te te prabhāva-nicayā vihitāś ca yena
govindam ādi-puruṣaḿ tam ahaḿ bhajāmi
"Lowest of all is located Devī-dhāma [maya world], next above it is Maheśa-dhāma [abode of Maheśa]; above Maheśa-dhāma is placed Hari-dhāmaand above them all is located Kṛṣṇa's own realm named Goloka. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, who has allotted their respective authorities to the rulers of those graded realms" (Brahma Samhita 5.37)
"Mispropoganda in www.Dvaita.org between "Sri Madhwacharya and Chaitanya Pantha."
"Sri Chaitanya Sampradaya is a branch of Madhwa philosophy. there are historic proofs to substantiate this fact. The sadhana achieved by Sri A. C. Prabhupada, Acharya of "Chaitanya Sampradaya" is to be welcomed by all Vaishnavites. It is due to him people all over the world have learned about Lord Krishna. This work should have been accomplished by Madhwa followers. But Prabhupada has served the world in propagating this cult. Even in the western world he has attracted a large number of devotees of Lord Krishna, through his discourse on "Bhagavat Geeta." The book on "Bhagavat Geeta" of Sri Prabhupada is allowed to be sold in front of Krishna Mandira at Udupi. This fact is known to all eight mutts of Udupi. As well as all devotees of Udupi Kshetra.
Therefore, the blame cast on Sri Prabhupada is to be deemed as the blame on Sri Hari, Vayu and Guru. This type of behavior is not to be found in a brahmin. As such, it is a bad affair to note that a Vaishnava has exhibited such a behavior. Such contradictory statements do create split in the Vaishnava Society and do not promote any good on the Society.
Therefore we oppose the points relayed through the website.
Sri Laksmivara Tirtha Swami"
Another letter written by Pejavara Swami's Math says:
"We are rather perturbed to come across an article said to contain a statemant issued by Poornaprajna Vidyapeetha about Madhwa and Gaudiya Sampradayas.
We have been emphasizing time and again that even though there are certain difference in a few aspects of the two Sampradayas, there are many more common grounds and Gaudiya Sampradaya is a part of Madhwa Sampradaya. We have great regard for Prabhupada who has spread Vaisnava Bhakti Siddhanta throughout the world.
We have been admiring him on various occasions also. We are pained to find that the article denigrates Prabhupada and is against our opinion and philosophy.
The whole issue will be reviewed and in our capacity as the chancellor of Poornaprajna Vidyapeeta, a message will be shortly published to strengthen the mutual harmonious relationship between the Sampradayas.
Sri Sri Vishwesa Tirtha Swamiiji"
In-fact the article written in Dvaita.com was criticized by Tattvadi leaders from 5 of the Maths of Udupi who defended the Gaudiya Sampradaya and the works of Srila Prabhupada. Their letters can be found here
"sahasra-patra-kamalaḿ
gokulākhyaḿ mahat padam
tat-karṇikāraḿ tad-dhāma
tad-anantāḿśa-sambhavam"
The superexcellent station of Kṛṣṇa, which is known as Gokula, has thousands of petals and a corolla like that of a lotus sprouted from a part of His infinitary aspect, the whorl of the leaves being the actual abode of Kṛṣṇa. (Brahma Samhita 5.2)
goloka-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya
devi maheśa-hari-dhāmasu teṣu teṣu
te te prabhāva-nicayā vihitāś ca yena
govindam ādi-puruṣaḿ tam ahaḿ bhajāmi
"Lowest of all is located Devī-dhāma [maya world], next above it is Maheśa-dhāma [abode of Maheśa]; above Maheśa-dhāma is placed Hari-dhāmaand above them all is located Kṛṣṇa's own realm named Goloka. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, who has allotted their respective authorities to the rulers of those graded realms" (Brahma Samhita 5.37)
These are junk, anyone would do this for money and Iskcon has lots of money, the letters would not prove anything because the madhva sampradaya Poornprajna Vidyapeetha tears down point by point as why gaudiyas have diametrically opposite views of Madhva school ? Can you counter his points without getting into letter drama ?Sriroor Swami (from Sri Shiroor Mutt, Udupi) wrote the following letter in response to that very article you posted:
"Mispropoganda in www.Dvaita.org between "Sri Madhwacharya and Chaitanya Pantha."
"Sri Chaitanya Sampradaya is a branch of Madhwa philosophy. there are historic proofs to substantiate this fact. The sadhana achieved by Sri A. C. Prabhupada, Acharya of "Chaitanya Sampradaya" is to be welcomed by all Vaishnavites. It is due to him people all over the world have learned about Lord Krishna. This work should have been accomplished by Madhwa followers. But Prabhupada has served the world in propagating this cult. Even in the western world he has attracted a large number of devotees of Lord Krishna, through his discourse on "Bhagavat Geeta." The book on "Bhagavat Geeta" of Sri Prabhupada is allowed to be sold in front of Krishna Mandira at Udupi. This fact is known to all eight mutts of Udupi. As well as all devotees of Udupi Kshetra.
Therefore, the blame cast on Sri Prabhupada is to be deemed as the blame on Sri Hari, Vayu and Guru. This type of behavior is not to be found in a brahmin. As such, it is a bad affair to note that a Vaishnava has exhibited such a behavior. Such contradictory statements do create split in the Vaishnava Society and do not promote any good on the Society.
Therefore we oppose the points relayed through the website.
Sri Laksmivara Tirtha Swami"
Another letter written by Pejavara Swami's Math says:
"We are rather perturbed to come across an article said to contain a statemant issued by Poornaprajna Vidyapeetha about Madhwa and Gaudiya Sampradayas.
We have been emphasizing time and again that even though there are certain difference in a few aspects of the two Sampradayas, there are many more common grounds and Gaudiya Sampradaya is a part of Madhwa Sampradaya. We have great regard for Prabhupada who has spread Vaisnava Bhakti Siddhanta throughout the world.
We have been admiring him on various occasions also. We are pained to find that the article denigrates Prabhupada and is against our opinion and philosophy.
The whole issue will be reviewed and in our capacity as the chancellor of Poornaprajna Vidyapeeta, a message will be shortly published to strengthen the mutual harmonious relationship between the Sampradayas.
Sri Sri Vishwesa Tirtha Swamiiji"
In-fact the article written in Dvaita.com was criticized by Tattvadi leaders from 5 of the Maths of Udupi who defended the Gaudiya Sampradaya and the works of Srila Prabhupada. Their letters can be found here
I checked google and this is some random brahma samhita which is not AUTHENTIC PROOF (You know this ) .....Is the concept of Goloka atleast there in SrimadBhagawatham ? Does it explain the intrinsic details of Goloka ? If not you should accept the defeat
You have still not answered my question :
Can you quote any supporting thing from gurus of gaudiya explaining paramapadam or Sri Vaikuntam
Still waiting.......
निताइ dasa
Nitai's servant's servant
No, I gave a legitimate response. Simply saying that it isn't authentic will not make it so. Brahma Samhita is a pancaratrika text which is part of Vedam. I think that is sufficient answer
So you are accusing the Madhav leaders of taking bribes now?
निताइ dasa
Nitai's servant's servant
Basically yup
Didn't realize that this had turned into a debate,sorry about that. The more I indulge, the worse it becomes.No, VEDAM DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING CALLED BRAHMA SAMHITA.....Why are you posting false things ?
Out of topic, can you counter the arguments posted in OP, even 1 ? I guess not
Can you quote any supporting thing from gurus of gaudiya explaining paramapadam or Sri Vaikuntam. If you could not answer this question, you should accept your defeat politely
Still waiting.......
This is not a debate but debunking isckon worse and fake translations on vedic texts
निताइ dasa
Nitai's servant's servant
YES BRAHMA SAMHITA IS PART OF VEDAM
does capitalizing letters do anything? Nope nothing. My proof still stands.
Okay, author calls Radharani a bogus deity (a huge shame). Then why does Radharani appear in Sankaracharya's Jaganathastakam and also in the commentary of Vedanta Desika:
devaki danuja sthuna divyam dhama vrajankanam rama radhadhayascheti rashi
bhedaihi na bhidyase (10.71 Yadavabhudaya)
rasanando radha-sarasa-vapur-alingana-sukho (Jagannathastakam verse 6)
Devi krishnamayi prokta radhika paradevata sarva laksmi mayi sarva kanthih
sammohini para (Gautamiya Tantra)
atha shris tad yatha purusha-bodhinyam atharvopanishadi
"gokulakhye mathuramandale" ity upakramya
dve parshve candravali radhika ca" ity abhidhaya
paratra "yasya amshe lakshmi-durgadika-shaktih" it (Atharva Veda, Purusha Bodhini)
She also appears in Padma Purana and Brahma Vaivarta, but the author calls that bogus without any reason.
The article is not a "debunking" of ISKCON if you read carefully, but rather it is meant to highlight the differences between Tattvavada and Gaudiya philosophy (I am not saying there isn't).
lol...........which world are you living on and which veda does it belong to rig, yajur, sama or aatharvana
again you skipped my last quesstion.....I consider that you are defeated as you cannot PROVE any verse from any of the gaudiya written works that projects the concept of paramapadam........I am now completely convinced that gaudiya is an AVAIDIKA sampradaya and has ZERO roots of VEDAM and chaitanya is a fake character who never existed
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