ISKCON debunked by dvaita school

[kalyan]

I have recently encountered this link while trying to browse somethin. and it seems the author completely invalidated ISKCON fake teachings and says they are not in line with vedantik philosophy and also claims at the end that chaitanya is anti-vedic for having arguing in support of fifth purushaartha. huh...Here is da link..Very Interesting article

http://www.dvaita.org/shaastra/iskcon.shtml

 

[Shantanu]

I have recently encountered this link while trying to browse somethin. and it seems the author completely invalidated ISKCON fake teachings and says they are not in line with vedantik philosophy and also claims at the end that chaitanya is anti-vedic for having arguing in support of fifth purushaartha. huh...Here is da link..Very Interesting article

http://www.dvaita.org/shaastra/iskcon.shtml

What does the fifth purushaartha idea entail?

 

[Terese]

What does the fifth purushaartha idea entail?

It's like transcendental love of Sri Krishna.

 

[kalyan]

What does the fifth purushaartha idea entail?

There is none, I could easily makeup a 6th one but that is not how it works, its anti -scriptures.

 

[kalyan]

I hate ISCKON with passion because of their ridiculous injections and corrupting the history of vedantik scholars just the sentiment that the author of dvaita school reflected in the OP. I think with the modern age internet, ISCKON cannot bluff people no longer in their scriptural corruptions.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Now begins the attack, dun dun dun.

The article doesn't really debunk it, but simply shows the differences between Gaudiya and Dvaita schools. Not everything is a competition of who is right or wrong. There is also alot of similarity (we accept the first 9 principles of Madhavacharya's dasa mula). In-fact there is more similiarity between Gaudiya and Dvaita schools then Dvaita and Adwaita.

The 5th Purushartha, Prema is simply an extension of Moksha. Moksha can be of five types (Sārūpya, Sālokya, Sārṣṭi, Sāmīpya, Sāyujya, Viśate, Kaivalya), but of them only 4 can constitute as Prema (Sayujya is impersonal so is ruled out). That is the mood. Even if once gets heavenly life and freedom from all suffering (Moksha) still that is not the highest attainment, because the highest attain is only Krsna Prema. This is Madhavacharya's definition of Moksha also (the highest positive not just cessation of all negatives). It is also the opinion of the Bhagavatam, as stated by Lord Chaitanya:

Na dhanam na janam na sundarim
kavitam va jagad-isa kamaye
mama janmani janmanisvare
bhavatad bhaktir ahaituki tvayi

"O Lord of the universe, I do not desire material wealth, materialistic followers, a beautiful wife, or fruitive activities described in flowery language. All I want, life after life, is unmotivated devotional service to You."

Now I know this post is simply to provoke an arguement that is why I don't want to give any legitimacy to it, but we must understand that even the leaders of Dvaita have accepted the Gaudiya's as a legitimate branch (from Ratikalaji's letters). Differences in philosophy doesn't mean we should be attacking one another. Dasomi

edit: Its funny, because the author even goes to attack other schools. He says, and I quote: "the only correct school is that of Achârya Madhva". Anyway this article is quite old, and Gaudiya leaders have responded to it with the strength of scripture. The refutation can be found here.

 

[kalyan]

Now begins the attack, dun dun dun.

I am all open minded nitai, but bluff needs to be called and a spade needs to be called a spade.......The dvaita school clearly DOES not accept what ISKCON tries to push and is diametrically opposite to well-established Madhva school

 

[Shantanu]

It's like transcendental love of Sri Krishna.

And do the Vedic ideas on God as the Supreme say that love of God is false, that God does not want us to love him and show devotion and bhakti, is that what kalyan is aggravated about?

 

[kalyan]

his is Madhavacharya's definition of Moksha also

Again don't you think you are hanging onto Madhva philisophy(legit) as a last straw? Clearly Dwaita school does not want to have any association with you. When do you possibly get that ? There is no need to separate prema as separate purushaartha as it is anti-vedic to against VEDAM and another person always can come in future claiming a 6th purushaartha, when does it end ?

 

[निताइ dasa]

Clearly Dwaita school does not want to have any association with you. When do you possibly get that ?

Of course they want association with us (and we want theirs).They may disagree with us in some minor points, but we agree on a great deal. The Vaishnav schools all respect one another greatly because our Lord is One, Hari. Why else would your own Gurudeva, Chinna Jeeyar Swami speak at an ISKCON center if he didn't want to associate with us. Philosophies will always differ even within schools, but we must never forget the Vaishnav tenets of respect and humility towards anyone who is preaching the name of Lord Hari. I don't really think hurling accusations like "anti-vedic" does any justice to that ideal, do you? If you really think some aspects are anti-vedic, maybe open a respectful thread which aims to come to an understanding about why certain schools have certain claims. Don't you think that would be far more productive then opening a thread solely to accuse?

A beautiful quote by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura on this principle:

"Gradually, when the offensive portions of the established religions are destroyed, there will be no more differences in the bhajana performed by the various Sampradayas nor any quarrel between them.

Then as brothers, the people of all castes and countries will spontaneously chant the Holy Names of the Supreme Lord together.

At that time, no one will hate anyone or consider others dogeaters; nor will anyone be overwhelmed by the pride of high birth.

The living entities will not forget the principle of natural brotherhood."

 

[kalyan]

Of course they want association with us.They may disagree with us in some minor points, but we agree on a great deal. The Vaishnav schools all respect one another greatly because our Lord is One, Hari. Why else would your own Gurudeva, Chinna Jeeyar Swami speak at an ISKCON center if he didn't want to associate with us. Philosophies will always differ even within schools, but we must never forget the Vaishnav tenets of respect and humility towards anyone who is preaching the name of Lord Hari. I don't really think hurling accusations like "anti-vedic" does any justice to that ideal, do you? If you really think some aspects are anti-vedic, maybe open a respectful thread which aims to come to an understanding about why certain schools have certain claims. Don't you think that would be far more productive then opening a thread solely to accuse?

Anti - Vedic in the sense, claiming a random thought which has NO support or evidence in Vedam(I think you already know this) and the person who tried to propagate that as truth is considered anti-vedic and an avaidika. It is very simple term. Clearly chaitanya as claimed by dwaita school propounded 5th purushaartha ( I personally did not check though but I believe the author). Again what is need of doing injections as chaitanya visiting udupi and defeating madhva scholars

 

[Terese]

And do the Vedic ideas on God as the Supreme say that love of God is false, that God does not want us to love him and show devotion and bhakti, is that what kalyan is aggravated about?

Absolutely not. Kalyan is aggravated about Gaudiya teachings that he says deviate from the Vedas. Love of God, or bhakti is purely legitimate, and wonderful way to attain moksha. Chaitanya creating a new purushartha is nothing wrong. He was a part of the bhakti movement, so he wanted to illustrate that love of God is a much higher goal than the impersonalists' (Advaitins) ideas.

 

[Shantanu]

"Sri Madhva has said —

1. Visnu is Supreme.
2. He is known by the study of the Vedas.
3. The Material world is real.
4. The jivas are different from the Lord.
5. The jivas are by nature subservient to the Lord.
6. In both the conditioned and liberated condition, the jivas are situated in higher and lower statuses.
7. Liberation is the attainment of Lord Visnu’s lotus-feet.
8. Pure devotion grants liberation.
9. Direct perception, logic and Vedic authority are the three sources of actual knowledge.

I am not enamoured with Dwaita philosophy if I study this summary because:
(a) 1, 2 are clearly erroneous in that Sri Krishna is Supreme and Vishnu is a lesser God and so there is no need to study the Vedas as there is no need to know Vishnu in anything but cursory acknowledgement as a rajasic deity;
(b) 4 is erroneous in that there is simultaneous oneness and separateness that is inconceivable so that acintya bheda abheda tatva is true;
(c) 7 and 8 are wrong in that only the realisation of truth that includes God-imparted truth liberates the jiva, not God Himself; and
(d) 9 is wrong in that Vedic authority is not at all necessary for actual knowledge.

 

[Terese]

Vishnu is a lesser God and so there is no need to study the Vedas as there is no need to know Vishnu in anything but cursory acknowledgement as a rajasic deity;

This hurts me quite deeply. No need to study the Vedas? Are you mad?

 

[Shantanu]

Absolutely not. Kalyan is aggravated about Gaudiya teachings that he says deviate from the Vedas. Love of God, or bhakti is purely legitimate, and wonderful way to attain moksha. Chaitanya creating a new purushartha is nothing wrong. He was a part of the bhakti movement, so he wanted to illustrate that love of God is a much higher goal than the impersonalists' (Advaitins) ideas.

The jiva's love of the truth surpasses in importance his/her love of God and God's love for the jiva depends on the importance that the jiva attaches to truth and truth accommodation, that is the acceptance of reality for reality is acknowledgement that whatever God has done thus far is appropriate and justified as the Supreme who is faultless.

For the jiva, the love for God must not be a goal or an aim as it hinders the process of truth acquisition. God has to earn a human's love for Him, and my experience is that He does this, but that is beside the point. The point is we humans must not follow God blindly, we are in control of our own lives and if we make mistakes we have only ourselves to blame not God. We must never get into a situation where we even allow ourselves to blame God for our misfortunes. And God makes sure that this does not happen. Such is the nature of God. This is the integrity of God.

 

[kalyan]

I am not enamoured with Dwaita philosophy if I study this summary because:
(a) 1, 2 are clearly erroneous in that Sri Krishna is Supreme and Vishnu is a lesser God and so there is no need to study the Vedas as there is no need to know Vishnu in anything but cursory acknowledgement as a rajasic deity;

Well please put a disclaimer, that this is YOUR opinion which is rejected by every school that possibly exists as utter garbage.

(b) 4 is erroneous in that there is simultaneous oneness and separateness that is inconceivable so that acintya bheda abheda tatva is true;

achintya bheda abheda is debunked by madhva school as there is no supporting claim in VEDAM supporting oneness and separateness which is absurd

(c) 7 and 8 are wrong in that only the realisation of truth that includes God-imparted truth liberates the jiva, not God Himself; and
(d) 9 is wrong in that Vedic authority is not at all necessary for actual knowledge.

This goes against the teaching of Sri Krushna in charama slokam.

Sorry to say but you are wrong on all points, the one thing you are correct is in posting the madhva philosophy points

 

[Shantanu]

This hurts me quite deeply. No need to study the Vedas? Are you mad?

Are you saying that only Hindus who know of the Vedas and have heard of Vishnu deserve, by God's will, to get to know Him?

 

[kalyan]

we are in control of our own lives

You do not know what happens inside your own body and what is making heart beat when you are in sleep, so you are not in control of your life,

Are you saying that only Hindus who know of the Vedas and have heard of Vishnu deserve, by God's will, to get to know Him?

If I may answer this question, yes Sri Krushna himself confirms this in gita, that out of millions of birth, one grows love towards him.

Anyway this is not the objective of this thread, why does ISKCON try to do so many injections is what to ponder here

 

[Terese]

Are you saying that only Hindus who know of the Vedas and have heard of Vishnu deserve, by God's will, to get to know Him?

Anyone who has devotion to Vishnu and his incarnations has the chance to attain moksha. Knowledge of the scriptures is not required, but it will help. One of our alwars did not know any of vedam, yet had devotion to Vishnu and appeared in a dream of his to help him.

 

[kalyan]

Chaitanya creating a new purushartha is nothing wrong.

May be not for us but as you see it is a problem for every vedantin and every vedantik acharya, dwaita has a problem, visista-advaita has a problem, not sure where advaita stands, but it is wrong to go against veda purusha and it paramounts as an anti-vedic teaching for which the person has to undergo the punishment ordained by vedam. The main problem however I have is they corrupt Madhva's history with chaitanya injections and they corrupt Ramanuja history with events such as chaitanya or his followers having some sort of interaction which is not recorded in any official Ramanuja or madhva history. Why go to this length to corrupt the history ?