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How Do Christians Reconcile The Following Question Regarding Their Faith?

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Here's the first problem. Define omniscience. Do you think omniscience entails such things as God knowing how to fly an airplane, or fix a computer problem? If one could plug themselves into the G-O-D omniscience database they would walk away knowing Kung Fu and being able to fly helicopters? Does it means there is this "being" out there somewhere who can read thoughts and predict next week's winning lottery ticket numbers?

To me these are all very naive, childlike notions of what "all-knowing" might mean. To me, all-knowing would much more entail being able to see through to the true nature of everything as it is, rather than through the illusion of limited perceptions imagining what is real or true when it is but a reflection of our own selves. This omniscience is not some ginormous computer database of facts and figures and technical knowledge, of all personal histories past, present, future. The G-O-D infinity data warehouse? I don't think so.

Once you remove modify this Santa Claus type idea of omniscience, the rest of the arguments based on that notion become moot.


Same thing. What does omnipotent actually mean? To me it means it is a matter of unconditional being. It is being without cause or effect. Therefore nothing can create or destroy it, as there is nothing above or below or outside it. It is the power of everything that is. This is a very different understanding than some comic-book version of a god with bolts of lightning coming out of his eyes and a giant foot that crushes everything it steps on. :) Wouldn't you agree?

Again, once you change the understanding of these terms to something a little more sophisticated, the rest of the arguments become moot points.


Same thing again. What does omnipresent really mean? Some form of entity that exists non-locally in a quantum-level reality? But that would not be God then, but some universal mathematical equation. Nor would it look like Santa Claus again that can magically hit every house in the word traveling faster than Flash Gordon on his way to a date. :) Many do imagine God in such magical terms however.

To me omnipresent means something along the lines of the Ground of all Being. It would be in terms that God is not separate from creation, neither inside nor outside, but is the "being" of "being". It is therefore not "up there" or "out there", nor "in here", but inside and outside, future and past, etc, are not places nor spaces where this "being" moves from or to.

A way to imagine this is like a map that is drawn out on a piece of paper with lines and curves, dots and letters, etc, which represent all time and history. God is the piece of paper itself all is drawn upon. It is not other to anything, but is part and present in everything that is. Now add to this "omniscience and omnipotence" as I described. This paper is living and not apart from or separate to. It transcends the lines, and is the fabric on which the lines are drawn. The lines and fabric are not separate.

One other thought to add to this, these lines are not predetermined lines either which the fabric planned out in advance nor is drawing them out for us. :) I do not see "the creation" as something that happened historically. Creation is a constant. Creation is happen in each and every moment. Nothing is predetermined. The only constant is the paper on which these living lines are being created, moment to moment, in repeating patterns, and novel, evolving forms.

In short, getting rid of the Santa Clause notions of God helps in dealing with these larger questions that the logical mind natural will see. Questions like, "If God is all powerful, can he create a rock he cannot lift?" become moot points. They're only valid questions when you think of God in those terms. Get rid of those terms. Move beyond them. I prefer developing a better understanding of God, rather than chucking it all out because we all know logically that a Mighty Mouse can't be real. :)
Thank you for your very long and thoughtful response. :) For now, my interest is in using the definitions of the words omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent as described in the OP. That's how mainstream Christians view their God. The definitions are quite straightforward (dictionary defined) regarding their application according to Christian doctrine. I'm trying to keep my question as simple as possible. Although I realize it's a very combative question to ask. The majority of Believers won't want to view their God as a murderer.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Hey there, Buttercup! Long time no see!
Hi ya, Katz! Big hug for you, sweetie!

It sounds to me like you think God should have taken away our freedom of choice. Am I understanding you correctly? I mean, the "creature He unleashed" is capable of great goodness, too. If we were incapable of doing bad, and only capable of doing good, we'd be nothing more than puppets. I don't personally see "good" as being very meaningful if there is no other option.
I understand your analogy, believe me. I lived with the morals of free choice for a long time. I don't see the Abrahamic God in the same way anymore (obviously, ha!) According to Christianity, God is our creator and designer, right? You don't see a problem with a designer purposefully creating a man who rapes, murders and dismembers a child all the while sitting back, watching and doing nothing about it? I realize you think this man has a choice, and you're correct, he does. However, why create a monster like this in the first place? My question to you, personally is, how do you reconcile that with your worship and faith in Him? I'd love to hear an answer deeper than "free will" from a Christian. I know we have choices. That's the easy part. What is God's motive for creating man the way he is?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thank you for your very long and thoughtful response. :) For now, my interest is in using the definitions of the words omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent as described in the OP. That's how mainstream Christians view their God.
That's true, and I think most don't actually stop and try to reason these out logically as they probably are just mostly approaching them symbolically, at a certain level. I think if pressing the questions logically, which is what the Epicurean Paradox does (your presentation is a variation of it), it leads to a contraction that forces someone to apply a different set of eyes to the symbol. Often this creates a cognitive dissonance and irrational and illogical responses in order to preserve the symbolic "definitions" of God.

The question then is to what end do we challenge the symbols with logic and reason? What is the goal? (I'm largely just thinking aloud at the moment).

The definitions are quite straightforward (dictionary defined) regarding their application according to Christian doctrine.
This is true. Dictionaries reflect common usage, but I push back against saying that more subtle, nuanced, or sophisticated understanding can't exist because the dictionary says so. :) These are heavily philosophical and metaphysical terms that the average person never really actually explore. Dictionaries only reflect the average understanding.

I'm trying to keep my question as simple as possible. Although I realize it's a very combative question to ask. The majority of Believers won't want to view their God as a murderer.
I think the good in such a question is to challenge someone to evolve their understanding of God. In other words, "Either sh** or get off the pot". :)
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
And why do people think that the parent/child analogy is applicable to God in such a broad capacity? The analogy is used to 'dumb down' the concept of our relationship with God, it's not supposed to be considered an accurate portrayal.

In which Biblical verse is it written "That God the Father stuff is just the truth dumbed down for you"? Just curious about that.

But more to the point: If God the Father is just a dumbed down analogy of our relationship to God, then who gets to say what aspects of that analogy are true or accurate, and what aspects of it are false or inaccurate? Who gets to tell us in precisely what way the analogy applies and in what way it doesn't?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I was a devoted Christian for a very long time, 25 years or more - a Trinity believing Protestant taught that our creator God is omniscient (all-knowing) omnipotent (all-powerful) and omnipresent (present everywhere at the same time). This creator designed and created men and women fully and completely all by 'himself'.

What I don't understand, is if this creator purposefully designed and unleashed upon the earth a creature capable of rape and murder, why isn't 'He' to blame for these atrocities? Why would you construct a being with the potential to do so much harm to his fellow humans? What was the motive?

If my son murdered a human and I supplied the gun knowing ahead of time he'd shoot someone, I'm held accountable for my part in the homicide. How much more so should God be held accountable for DESIGNING a creature that he KNOWS ahead of time (he's omniscient, remember) will murder a fellow human?
Well one Christian argument might be that these creations are meaningless without a capacity for free will (meaning the ability to do good and bad). But in the overall, there is still more good people than bad so the creation makes sense.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
And if God were truly cruel and evil, then why would He have even bothered to create us? Better yet, why would He have bothered to create things that are good, let alone our ability to experience peace and happiness.

How do you reconcile your notion that God is beyond human understanding with your repeated appeals to human understanding (see, for instance, the above) in order to understand him? For instance, if God were truly beyond human understanding, then what grounds can you stand on when saying that "God is good" or "God is not cruel and evil"? Or even more to the point, how can you suggest that, if he were cruel and evil, he would not have bothered to create things that are good, when the very suggestion implies God thinks like you and, hence, is understandable to you after all?
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
That's a very emotional response...
Aren't you supposed to atleast feign objectivity?

I don't call God moral. I call Him Holy.
And if God were truly cruel and evil, then why would He have even bothered to create us? Better yet, why would He have bothered to create things that are good, let alone our ability to experience peace and happiness.

You remind me of the Muslim fundamentalists who insist that there is nothing like Allah and yet ascribe to him attributes such as wrath, dissatisfaction, contentment, and contempt. Even further, they explicitly find it blasphemous to refer to Allah with a feminine pronoun and insist that he be referred to as "he." So much for avoiding anthropomorphization.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I was a devoted Christian for a very long time, 25 years or more - a Trinity believing Protestant taught that our creator God is omniscient (all-knowing) omnipotent (all-powerful) and omnipresent (present everywhere at the same time). This creator designed and created men and women fully and completely all by 'himself'.

What I don't understand, is if this creator purposefully designed and unleashed upon the earth a creature capable of rape and murder, why isn't 'He' to blame for these atrocities? Why would you construct a being with the potential to do so much harm to his fellow humans? What was the motive?

If my son murdered a human and I supplied the gun knowing ahead of time he'd shoot someone, I'm held accountable for my part in the homicide. How much more so should God be held accountable for DESIGNING a creature that he KNOWS ahead of time (he's omniscient, remember) will murder a fellow human?

If I were a Christian trying to answer your questions, I would most likely feel compelled to fall back on the message of Job, which I myself pithily interpret in this context as "It's a mystery." That's not very satisfying, though.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
So you think you can judge a being your mind can't even fathom?
As a matter of fact, yes.
I judge him based upon his own standards.
Just like he said in Matthew

The motives of a creature that created the concept of motives and morals?
Again, I am only judging him as he claimed he would judge us.
If he did not want us to learn something, he should not have taught it to us.

Seriously... Did you at any point in time think maybe that's just not very logical?
It is illogical to argue logic about a being not bound by the logic you would argue with.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
If you had of been born even less than 100 years ago your own personal morality would be very different.
So why would something so fickle be applied to an eternal, omniscient being?

And why do people think that the parent/child analogy is applicable to God in such a broad capacity? The analogy is used to 'dumb down' the concept of our relationship with God, it's not supposed to be considered an accurate portrayal.
I notice you did not answer the questions you replied to.
Why is that?
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Only if you think of God as a human, Which you guys can't seem to help but do.
Actually, the difference between you and me is that I do not give out free passes like you do.

What is so hard to understand about a being that you can't understand.
Are you serious?
Is this kind of double speak how you "understand" your god?

If He's beyond you then He's beyond you, so why would you think it appropriate to keep anthropomorhizing Him and using human precepts to put Him in a box.
I am not.
I am using HIS precepts to judge him.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Hi ya, Katz! Big hug for you, sweetie!

I understand your analogy, believe me. I lived with the morals of free choice for a long time. I don't see the Abrahamic God in the same way anymore (obviously, ha!) According to Christianity, God is our creator and designer, right? You don't see a problem with a designer purposefully creating a man who rapes, murders and dismembers a child all the while sitting back, watching and doing nothing about it? I realize you think this man has a choice, and you're correct, he does. However, why create a monster like this in the first place? My question to you, personally is, how do you reconcile that with your worship and faith in Him? I'd love to hear an answer deeper than "free will" from a Christian. I know we have choices. That's the easy part. What is God's motive for creating man the way he is?
I'm going to get back to you, I promise. But I'm going to tell you right now that the only reason I am is that we're friends, and I know you're not just trying to argumentative. If it were anyone else asking the question, I'd have simply not responded in the first place. There is never going to be an answer to this question that I believe will satisfy you, and I think we both know that. I've got to go get dinner started right now, though, and I want to give this some thought before I respond in depth. Obviously, I'm going to be coming from the LDS perspective, which is a bit more multi-faceted than the typical mainstream Christian perspective, so you're going to have to expect a few lengthy, Katzpur-style posts if I'm going to explain it.

But, meanwhile, you're going to have to refresh my memory. I know you used to be a Christian. As a recall, you were a Christian when we first met. Do you still believe in God? If you do, what are your own gut feelings about Him? Who or what is He really? I'm not talking about the God you were raised to believe in. I'm talking about the God you do believe in -- if He exists at all. I would appreciate it if you would read and comment on the following quote:

"If it really is true that [humans are] merely the inevitable culmination of an improbable chemical reaction... involv[ing] 'merely material' atoms, then the fact that [we] have been able to formulate the idea of 'an improbable chemical reaction' and to trace [ourselves] back to it is remarkable indeed. That chemicals which are 'merely material' should come to understand their own nature is a staggering supposition."
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
That's a very emotional response...
Aren't you supposed to atleast feign objectivity?

I don't call God moral. I call Him Holy.
And if God were truly cruel and evil, then why would He have even bothered to create us? Better yet, why would He have bothered to create things that are good, let alone our ability to experience peace and happiness.
One wonders why you are completely unable to give a direct answer to a direct question.
Why are you afraid of?
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
I do believe that the bible itself refers to its god as "Father" many times. If that god were not meant to be looked at as a parent to us in the first place then why was not another frame of reference given? Other words used? Being? Source? Life giver? Designer? Boss? Big unknowable thingy-ma-bob?

By the reference of "Father" it straight out implies more of a parental relationship. If that is the case then why would it be inherently wrong to judge that relationship thusly? If the Abrahamic god is parental in nature then the same judgements one could apply to a biological parent could reasonably be used upon that god.

So, if a child can judge a parent as to how they were raised, then so can a person judge god. Question them. Critique them. Abandon them.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Do you think that maybe God should have created a human that cannot be tempted?
Willpower may be more of a learned thing, though. It wouldn't matter how awesome God made us. Without mental discipline, it's all for naught.

Right so God can do whatever he want and its automatically moral because he's God. No matter what God does he's moral. God could torture all of humanity for eternity and still be 100% moral.

The correct answer is that God should be accountable to himself and his set of morals. he should have empathy and consider what it would be like if Uber God did the things God does to humans. If God isn't accountable to himself or his morals then morality is arbitrary and relative to whatever God decides in a particular instant.
That's why I actually prefer the Mahabharata. Everyone from gods to demons have to obey dharma or get punished. It's a lot better message than "do as I say, not as I do" from the bible.

So you think you can judge a being your mind can't even fathom? The motives of a creature that created the concept of motives and morals?
Seriously... Did you at any point in time think maybe that's just not very logical?
But morals either exist or they don't. The fetish to absolve God of the morals HE HIMSELF says are important tells me that Christianity is mostly about passing the buck to avoid responsibility. If responsibility is so easily tossed aside, God and humanity need to have a "come to Jesus' moment regarding just why WE need to follow these rules or go to hell...

Only if you think of God as a human, Which you guys can't seem to help but do.
What is so hard to understand about a being that you can't understand. If He's beyond you then He's beyond you, so why would you think it appropriate to keep anthropomorhizing Him and using human precepts to put Him in a box.
If an alien or a dog or a statue or whatever tells me that salt will lead to high blood pressure and that is to be avoided and then eats salt straight out of the shaker, knows it is a bad idea and does it anyway (read Job for when God admits He is doing something bad to an undeserving man and DOES IT ANYWAY) ... that makes that entity a hypocrite, calling into question every decision made thus far.

That's a very emotional response...
Aren't you supposed to atleast feign objectivity?

I don't call God moral. I call Him Holy.
And if God were truly cruel and evil, then why would He have even bothered to create us? Better yet, why would He have bothered to create things that are good, let alone our ability to experience peace and happiness.
Date rape usually starts out with a nice dinner, a movie ... and turns ugly later.

Hi ya, Katz! Big hug for you, sweetie!

I understand your analogy, believe me. I lived with the morals of free choice for a long time. I don't see the Abrahamic God in the same way anymore (obviously, ha!) According to Christianity, God is our creator and designer, right? You don't see a problem with a designer purposefully creating a man who rapes, murders and dismembers a child all the while sitting back, watching and doing nothing about it? I realize you think this man has a choice, and you're correct, he does. However, why create a monster like this in the first place? My question to you, personally is, how do you reconcile that with your worship and faith in Him? I'd love to hear an answer deeper than "free will" from a Christian. I know we have choices. That's the easy part. What is God's motive for creating man the way he is?
I no longer call myself Christian. Not because I stopped believing in the morals, God, etc, but because I can't fake ignorance of the fact Christianity doesn't really care about God or Jesus. If I am to remain loyal to God, I had to call it quits.

That being said, I feel God is our Creator (whether an Abrahamic specific God or just a Divine Presence or whatever). I feel, given what real life is like, God didn't make us good nor evil. Our issues are natural selection working through the trial and error only. I don't believe in free will as I see no evidence for it. We are all acting and thinking based on a countless number of factors both within our control and without.

Personally, somewhat playfully, I feel we are video game characters. God seems gone when He has logged out and does His own thing. There is no purpose to anyone's lives other than whatever "mission" or "quest" He is playing at the time. I would consider the scenes in Job where God and Satan are essentially debating how to treat our characters as evidence of this, much like media treats Greek gods as playing chess with us as figures. I just like more modern analogies, LOL. We are Sims, not creations God loves any more than we would enjoy the characters we play when we play. If we are deleted, it's all cool. God just starts a new game and moves on with His day. Is this a God worth worshipping? What is worship? I feel it is more than buttkissing. It's an intimate relationship (as much as can be had, of course). It's why sex and family are used so often to describe God's relationship with us. It doesn't always have to be a HAPPY relationship, but it's there, all the same. I feel God doesn't punish those who suffer just because God wanted to see what would happen if He tossed the video game character off the cliff (I mean, on top of that, anyway). I also feel He doesn't punish unbelief, for as our "User", He could try to make Himself known or not. Not many video game characters are aware they are characters, after all. They should not be blamed for thinking their lives are all that it is, even though with some code tweaks, it could be a lot more.

If I were a Christian trying to answer your questions, I would most likely feel compelled to fall back on the message of Job, which I myself pithily interpret in this context as "It's a mystery." That's not very satisfying, though.
But the prologue removes the mystery. God let Satan tempt Him into dicking with someone innocent just for kicks. No mystery to anyone but Job.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Held accountable? How silly.
God made us. He made the world. So who, exactly, would God be accountable too? You?
The problem with questions like these is you automatically assume you have the moral high-ground, but you don't.
Your approach doesn't get you to "God is moral"; it only gets you to "so what if God is immoral - what are you going to do about it?"
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Hey there, Buttercup! Long time no see!

It sounds to me like you think God should have taken away our freedom of choice. Am I understanding you correctly? I mean, the "creature He unleashed" is capable of great goodness, too. If we were incapable of doing bad, and only capable of doing good, we'd be nothing more than puppets. I don't personally see "good" as being very meaningful if there is no other option.
So in your view, is God incapable of creating people who would be capable of evil but never choose it?

... and when it comes to evil, our freedom of choice is already limited: we can't kill people with our thoughts Darth Vader-style, we can't make people wither by sprinkling them with salt like a slug, etc., etc. Why is the arrangement we have the "sweet spot" between freedom of choice and minimization of evil? Why would the world be a worse place if, say, our skin was tough enough for us not to be vulnerable to stabbing, or if we were tolerant enough of cold that we couldn't die of exposure? It isn't an all-or-nothing choice between pure free will and being a "puppet"; we're already somewhere in between.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Well one Christian argument might be that these creations are meaningless without a capacity for free will (meaning the ability to do good and bad). But in the overall, there is still more good people than bad so the creation makes sense.
The standard response to that is to ask if there's free will in Heaven.

- if the answer's "yes", then free will doesn't necessarily require the existence of evil.
- if the answer's "no", then God doesn't actually care about free will over the long run.

Either way, the argument you gave doesn't work.
 
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