Should Christians follow the Law?

[2ndpillar]

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? (Jeremiah 8:8)​

Jeremiah is being sarcastic. Since the actions of the scribes are not in agreement with what the scribes are writing, they must be writing with a “lying pen”.

Dear roger,
Yeah, and I am being sarcastic when I say I believe you.

 

[2ndpillar]

Wow -- you are accusing Jeremiah of getting things wrong?

Dear rose,
Jeremiah got it right, in that the scribes have a "lying pen", in as they write the Talmud, which is their work, and not the work of God. One of is of man, and the Torah is of God. It is best summarized in Jeremiah 8:9

Jeremiah 8:9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
"The wise men are put to shame,
they are dismayed and caught;
Behold, they have rejected the word of the lord,
and what kind of wisdom do they have?"

 

[rosends]

Dear rose,
Jeremiah got it right, in that the scribes have a "lying pen", in as they write the Talmud, which is their work, and not the work of God. One of is of man, and the Torah is of God. It is best summarized in Jeremiah 8:9

Jeremiah 8:9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
"The wise men are put to shame,
they are dismayed and caught;
Behold, they have rejected the word of the lord,
and what kind of wisdom do they have?"

OK, so you can choose which ones are telling the truth and which are lying. You do understand that at the time of Jeremiah, no one was writing the talmud, right? The scribes were writing down untruths observable in the world ("peace" when there was no peace). He says that they will be consumed by God so that by the time of the writers of the talmud, they couldn't possibly exist. Well argued.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Sandy,, many people want to believe that Jesus freed us from keeping the law. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are to obey God and keep His Commandments, for they are not burdensome.

I will explain it another way. A man is convicted and sentenced to death. The Governor comes along and pardons the condemned man and sets him free. The freed man is now beholden to the Governor and keeping his laws. Just because the Governor freed the condemn man, is not a license to break the Governors laws. In fact,, because the condemned was freed, he is even more obliged to keep the laws of the Governor! What do you suppose the Governor will do to the condemned man that was freed yet turned back to a life of law breaking?

We keep the Law, not because it is the means of Salvation, but because keeping the law is the FRUIT OF SALVATION!!!!! If we love Jesus we will love to keep His Commandments!. It is the Love of Christ that compels us to do so. Not selfish motives.

The 10 Commandments and the Law of Moses is not exactly the same thing. Moses's law was the temporary, ceremonial law of the Old Testament. It regulated the priesthood, sacrifices, rituals, meat and drink offerings, ect., all of which foreshadowed the cross This law was added "til the seed should come," and that seed was Christ (Galatians 3;16,19) The ritual and ceremony of Moses' law pointed forward to Christ's sacrifice. When He died, that law came to an end, but the 10 Commandments (God's Law) "stand fast forever and ever" Psalm 111:8.

To show you a few differences between the law of Moses & God's Law:

Moses' law is called "the law of Moses" Luke 2:22----------------------------------God's law is called "the law of the Lord" Isaiah 5:24

Moses' law was written by Moses in a book. 2 Chronicles 35:12--------------------God's law was written by God on stone. Exodus 31:18

Moses' law was placed on the side of the ark. Dueteronomy 31:26-----------------God's law was placed inside the ark. Exodus 40:20

Moses' law judges no one. Colossians 2:14-16--------------------------------------God's law judges all people James 2:10-12

Moses' law is carnal. Hebrews 7:16-----------------------------------------------------God's law is spiritual. Romans 7:14

Moses' law made nothing perfect Hebrews 7:19------------------------------------------God's law is perfect Psalm 19:7

Hope this helps clear up any confusion.

I'm not confused. Perhaps a short tutorial on law might be helpful. First, I misspoke earlier; I meant to say that in order for God to be just (Not righteous as I said. God needs to be righteous in order to both give the law and be the judge in matters of the law.) there needs to be law. Law started in the Garden of Eden with two commandments. The law became more complex as man began to sin and multiplied. The law gave direction on how man should deal with sin and live together. The Mosaic Law, which was given to Moses by God is still God's law. Paul, in Romans, makes the case for the need of law (not just Mosaic Law), the need for a righteous judge as well as the righteousness of law. He is clear to point out that man sins and law was given because of that. Paul also clearly states that the message of Romans is the message of salvation and that salvation comes from Christ through faith. This has a name, the law of faith.

What Paul points out is that the Mosaic Law and natural law both deal with sin which is a product of the flesh. The law of faith deals with the mind. When we are symbolically separated from the law of our flesh by being tied in with the crucifixion of Christ (I am crucified with Christ but nevertheless I live...) we are no longer under either natural law or Mosaic Law. We are then expected to put our flesh and the lusts therof under submission to our minds through the power of faith in Christ. A new body free of sin comes at our resurrection. We are not free from law, we are under the law of faith, not the natural law as are Gentiles or the Mosaic Law as are the Hebrew.

I hope this clears up your confusion.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

There are seven laws (instructions) mentioned by Paul.
1. The Law of God. Romans 3.31, 7.22-25, 8.7
2. The Law of Sin. Romans 7.23-25
3. The Law of Sin and death.Romans 8.2
4. The Law of the Spirit and Life. Romans 8.2
5. The Law of Faith. Romans 3.27
6. The Law of Righteousness. Romans 9.23
7. The Law of Christ. 1 Corinthians 9.21

That is why there is so much confusion when Paul mentions law. The Bible cannot contradict itself.

Paul uses those terms to describe only three laws, natural law Mosaic Law and the law of faith.

 

[roger1440]

Dear roger,
Yeah, and I am being sarcastic when I say I believe you.

What do you think it means? If I told you, "everything I say is a lie" it wouldn't make any sense.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Your next question was: Why does Paul claim to die to the law? The penalty for breaking the Law of God (10 Commandments) is eternal death.

Death came at the Garden of Eden not from Mosaic Law which is God's law and there is more than the Ten Commandments.

 

[Brickjectivity]

There are different laws Paul refers to. One is the law of grace. Another the law of God. Another the law of Moses. Another the law of sin. Another law of sin and death. I missed a few, but you can tell why his words were hard to understand 2000 years ago according to Peter.

Good point. In the context of Romans 6, the law that Paul has died to could be the 'Law of sin'. Romans 6:22 says Paul has been 'Set from from the law of sin and become slaves of righteousness', but why then in Romans 7:6 does he say "...we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code..." It is curious.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Good point. In the context of Romans 6, the law that Paul has died to could be the 'Law of sin'. Romans 6:22 says Paul has been 'Set from from the law of sin and become slaves of righteousness', but why then in Romans 7:6 does he say "...we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code..." It is curious.

Romans describes two laws of sin; there is natural law and Mosaic Law. Serving in a new way is the law of faith. No matter what, we are under a law of some kind. Two laws condemn us and one law redeems us.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Romans describes two laws of sin; there is natural law and Mosaic Law. Serving in a new way is the law of faith. No matter what we are under a law of some kind. Two laws condemn us and one law redeems us.

How should we enumerate that? Nathan lists seven, and at least three of the seven he lists in Romans. Are you saying that these are just ways of describing natural and Mosaic law? Why? Thanks.

There are seven laws (instructions) mentioned by Paul.
1. The Law of God. Romans 3.31, 7.22-25, 8.7
2. The Law of Sin. Romans 7.23-25
3. The Law of Sin and death.Romans 8.2
4. The Law of the Spirit and Life. Romans 8.2
5. The Law of Faith. Romans 3.27
6. The Law of Righteousness. Romans 9.23
7. The Law of Christ. 1 Corinthians 9.21

 

[sandy whitelinger]

How should we enumerate that? Nathan lists seven, and at least three of the seven he lists in Romans. Are you saying that these are just ways of describing natural and Mosaic law? Why? Thanks.

Why, because of context. Give me some time and I'll see if I can put it together in context this evening.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Why, because of context. Give me some time and I'll see if I can put it together in context this evening.

Cool, but if its a lot of work you don't need to go out of your way. Also there is not a big hurry unless you simply feel like doing it.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Cool, but if its a lot of work you don't need to go out of your way. Also there is not a big hurry unless you simply feel like doing it.

Not too much work and I like to do it, unfortunately I can't do it off of the top of my head. Romans is a progressive argument and needs to be looked at in that manner. Just grabbing a quote here and a quote there doesn't cut it.

 

[Mr. Beebe]

Death came at the Garden of Eden not from Mosaic Law which is God's law and there is more than the Ten Commandments.

Before sin entered in, there was a law against it. If there wasn't, Satan would have complained that God was unjust in kicking him out of heaven. Satan sinned. Eve sinned as well. In fact if you take a closer look at the scripture you will see that many of the 10 Commandments were broken by Eve in the garden.

Did the fruit on the tree belong to Eve? No. Thou shalt not steal.

Did Eve honor God by taking and eating that fruit? No. Honor thy Father and thy Mother

Did Eve commit spiritual Adultery when she took of the counsel of the Serpent? Yep. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Did Eve desire the fruit and all the powers that would come with eating it? Yep. Thou shalt not covet.

Eve even added to God's word when she said, "...nor shall you touch it..." Genesis 3:3

Many attempt to "muddy" up the waters, as to confuse man as to what his duty is. And that is what is going on with several of the posts claiming all these diversities of laws. God is not the author of confusion.

Again, the 10 Commandments last forever, just as Psalm 111:8 says. If you want to err and apply Psalm 111:8 to the rules regarding the purchase of a Hebrew servant, you are not rightly dividing the word of truth. All 10 Commandments are re-stated in the New Testament. Some things come to an end,,Sacrificial and ceremonial laws are done away with. But the 10 Commandments, stand fast, forever and ever.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Before sin entered in, there was a law against it. If there wasn't, Satan would have complained that God was unjust in kicking him out of heaven. Satan sinned. Eve sinned as well. In fact if you take a closer look at the scripture you will see that many of the 10 Commandments were broken by Eve in the garden.

Did the fruit on the tree belong to Eve? No. Thou shalt not steal.

Did Eve honor God by taking and eating that fruit? No. Honor thy Father and thy Mother

Did Eve commit spiritual Adultery when she took of the counsel of the Serpent? Yep. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Did Eve desire the fruit and all the powers that would come with eating it? Yep. Thou shalt not covet.

Eve even added to God's word when she said, "...nor shall you touch it..." Genesis 3:3

Many attempt to "muddy" up the waters, as to confuse man as to what his duty is. And that is what is going on with several of the posts claiming all these diversities of laws. God is not the author of confusion.

Again, the 10 Commandments last forever, just as Psalm 111:8 says. If you want to err and apply Psalm 111:8 to the rules regarding the purchase of a Hebrew servant, you are not rightly dividing the word of truth. All 10 Commandments are re-stated in the New Testament. Some things come to an end,,Sacrificial and ceremonial laws are done away with. But the 10 Commandments, stand fast, forever and ever.

This is too convoluted for me to straighten out for you.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Cool, but if its a lot of work you don't need to go out of your way. Also there is not a big hurry unless you simply feel like doing it.

The understanding of Biblical law goes back to Genesis. I won’t go there. I’ll jump to Romans. Romans is a written like a legal document. The arguments made in chapter 8 begin in chapter 1. The first place to start, for our purpose is in a concordance. An overwhelming amount of the usage of the Greek word for “law” used in Romans is one word which pertains to Mosaic Law. This could be debated as a generic or specific term; hopefully not here. In these cases I resort to the English and trust the translators (and no I do not want to debate that here)


I’ve gleaned three laws out of Romans, what I call natural law, Mosaic Law (which I’ll now refer to as “the Law” capital L), and the law of faith.


Natural law comes from Romans 2, specifically verse 14, where mankind without the Law are a law unto themselves. The Law was given to Moses by God in the Old Testament. The law of faith comes from Romans 3:27.


Now for the list of the laws mentioned in Romans, the law of God is not called that in 3:31 (from Nathan’s list). Let’s move to chapter 7’s mention of the law of God. In that chapter Paul is Jewish speaking of the only law he knew as a Jew, the Mosaic Law. This takes care of the law of sin first mentioned there and puts it under the Law.


So the next law mentioned, chronologically, is the law of sin and death. Paul spoke only of the Law in chapter 7 and begins chapter 8 as a conclusion of 7 leading with “Therefore.” Therefore he is still speaking of the Law. Introduced here is the term “the law of the Spirit of Christ Jesus.” This relates back to the law of faith mentioned in 3:27. I’ll skip numerous paragraphs leading to this. Here are the Cliffs Notes. Paul starts Chapter one by proclaiming he is giving a message of salvation through the gospel of Christ through faith (go read it). He goes on to show that all men are condemned under either natural or Mosaic law. Chapter 3, verses 21-26 while a bit convoluted show that the law that pertains to salvation comes under the law of faith (he’s already excluded natural law and the Law). Any further law that pertains to salvation comes under this law.

I think I’ve given you enough to go on to categorize all the laws mentioned…or I could bore you further with many more paragraphs.

 

[Brickjectivity]

The understanding of Biblical law goes back to Genesis. I won’t go there. I’ll jump to Romans. Romans is a written like a legal document. The arguments made in chapter 8 begin in chapter 1. The first place to start, for our purpose is in a concordance. An overwhelming amount of the usage of the Greek word for “law” used in Romans is one word which pertains to Mosaic Law. This could be debated as a generic or specific term; hopefully not here. In these cases I resort to the English and trust the translators (and no I do not want to debate that here)


I’ve gleaned three laws out of Romans, what I call natural law, Mosaic Law (which I’ll now refer to as “the Law” capital L), and the law of faith.


Natural law comes from Romans 2, specifically verse 14, where mankind without the Law are a law unto themselves. The Law was given to Moses by God in the Old Testament. The law of faith comes from Romans 3:27.


Now for the list of the laws mentioned in Romans, the law of God is not called that in 3:31 (from Nathan’s list). Let’s move to chapter 7’s mention of the law of God. In that chapter Paul is Jewish speaking of the only law he knew as a Jew, the Mosaic Law. This takes care of the law of sin first mentioned there and puts it under the Law.


So the next law mentioned, chronologically, is the law of sin and death. Paul spoke only of the Law in chapter 7 and begins chapter 8 as a conclusion of 7 leading with “Therefore.” Therefore he is still speaking of the Law. Introduced here is the term “the law of the Spirit of Christ Jesus.” This relates back to the law of faith mentioned in 3:27. I’ll skip numerous paragraphs leading to this. Here are the Cliffs Notes. Paul starts Chapter one by proclaiming he is giving a message of salvation through the gospel of Christ through faith (go read it). He goes on to show that all men are condemned under either natural or Mosaic law. Chapter 3, verses 21-26 while a bit convoluted show that the law that pertains to salvation comes under the law of faith (he’s already excluded natural law and the Law). Any further law that pertains to salvation comes under this law.

I think I’ve given you enough to go on to categorize all the laws mentioned…or I could bore you further with many more paragraphs.

Thanks for doing that for me! I am looking it over, and perhaps someone else will find it interesting as well.

On the side: Romans 2:14 Paul seems to allude to a future fulfilment of Jeremiah 31:33, and I think he indicates this takes place in the future because he says this will happen at the time that the secrets of all hearts are revealed (verse 2:16). Its interesting to me, because many people think that Christianity presumes this has already been fulfilled. Hebrews refers several times to a 'New covenant' alluding plainly to Jeremiah 31 and surrounding passages. There is another allusion to Jeremiah 31 in the gospels that is less clear. Like many things under discussion here its super debatable when Jeremiah 31 is fulfilled, but I mention it since you might find it interesting. I think its one of the 'Quasi-fulfilled' items -- likes fulfilled in the sense that we expect it to happen in the future, kind of like the way all the messianic prophecies are not visibly fulfilled at this time but are fulfilled in christ.

The idea of 'Natural law' makes sense to me (first guess). First it makes sense because the word 'Torah' is not strictly equivalent to the English word 'Law' and has the idea of natural order in it or protocol or physics. In other words if you look in a clock there is a way that its supposed to work. You have to set it and wind it. Secondly it makes sense, because there obviously is a natural order to the world. Paul himself says that anything that can be known about God can be seen in nature -- hence nature is an orderly system that reflects Torah. I think some would consider the laws of Mathematics to be Torah. The point is that Torah is not always referring to the laws Moses gives. This adds weight to the argument that Paul is using 'Law' in an open sense rather than always referring to Moses laws. Therefore context matters and helps, and I can see why you would think of Paul referring to 'Natural law'.

You refer to three kinds of 'Law': Natural, Mosaic and Faith. I think there are more in existence, counting physics and food recipes, dinner etiquette and things like that, but you are talking about Romans and the law sets mentioned in Romans. Three is a lot simpler than seven or ten, so if you can get it down to three in Romans that's nice at least for finding our feet. Even if there are 4 or 5 or 7 it may helpful to say 'Usually Romans is speaking of 3 things when it talks about Law'. For sake of discussion I think 3 is a reasonable number to start with.

My understanding of faith is that it is not well represented to me usually by most people. There is an unhealthy emphasis 'Out there' to teach people to believe and not do much, and it collapses Christianity into a fake miracle industry. I don't like that and don't consider that to have any relation to faith. I have in the past had a lot emphasis given to me about believing, that I should believe and believe and believe. Belief was everything, but I found it was not everything and also not enough. I found over time that believing is not faith and is just a part of faith. Part of this was through looking at concordances, but part of it was reading the Torah itself, the gospels, Jesus comments, and the various letters of the NT. Its impossible to mistake simply belief and faith. The fact that you have gleaned that 'Faith' is a law in Romans implies that faith is an entire system or way of doing things. You live according to a principle or principles and that is faith. You don't just believe in a particular way.

But what is the result of all of this on the original topic of whether Christians should obey Torah? Why does Paul in 3:28 say "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."(NIV) We come full circle back to what we were discussing.

 

[Mr. Beebe]

This is too convoluted for me to straighten out for you.

Sandy,, that's because you are a false teacher and the truth is something that doesn't agree with you. So,, you like to muddy up the waters as much as possible and bring in confusion. God is not the author of confusion. The Devil is the author of confusion. People like you try to make the scriptures so confusing that you can then say,, Nobody can know the truth. And many quit searching for it.

I've noticed your back-handed comments as well. They tell me about your character. Thanks.

 

[Mr. Beebe]

Fact is,, the 10 Commandments are the Law of God! Anybody that decides to bring in the law of this and the law of that,, is somebody that desires to take away the sobering fact of what sin is,,,,,The transgression of the law of God. Now why would they do that? To take attention away from from that which shall judge all. Satan has tried since the beginning to take attention away from God's Commandments in any way possible. Thru confusion, and even altering them as we see today! So, while you are arguing about this law and that law,, Satan has already changed God's 10 Commandments thru deceived men and nearly the entire Christian world have fallen for these lies. Teaching as Commandments the Traditions of men. They have torn out the 2nd Commandment (Idolatry), changed the 4th Commandment (Sabbath, reduced it to 8 words and changed it to Sunday the 1st day of the week), and they split the 10th and made two separate commandments out of it. I suppose they had to because after tearing out the 2nd Commandment, they were left with only 9. So,, all this talk about anything other than the 10 Commandments is being done to take our minds away from that Law which all men are to be judged by,, the 10 Commandments.

 

[Brickjectivity]

@sandy whitelinger