Nothing Short Of Perfection

[BilliardsBall]

Jesus didn't do anything wrong to deserve death, and by torture. Jesus came to do what we cannot do for ourselves. I'm a Christian for years and many others on this forum aren't Christians, yet all of us strive to be decent people and to better ourselves--all without achieving perfection. This is the doctrine of Christianity, Jesus died as my substitute, His perfection helping me go to Heaven.

Honestly, I'd muss Heaven up now if I went. The first time you or I hurt one another's feelings or insulted one another or had an unpleasant argument it would cease to be a perfect utopia. I'm still not ready for Heaven, but having trusted Jesus for salvation, when the time comes, He will impart His perfection to me--I'll be ready!

 

[Clear]

Hi Billiardsball :

When you say that Jesus "will impart His perfection to me", can you explain what you mean by this. For example, do you mean he will exchange an imperfect personality for a perfect personality and then save the second personality? Can you further explain? If you mean that he will, as an external force, replace personal traits of a person with other traits, do you have a model as to how this happens?

Thanks

Clear
ειτωω

 

[leibowde84]

Jesus didn't do anything wrong to deserve death, and by torture. Jesus came to do what we cannot do for ourselves. I'm a Christian for years and many others on this forum aren't Christians, yet all of us strive to be decent people and to better ourselves--all without achieving perfection. This is the doctrine of Christianity, Jesus died as my substitute, His perfection helping me go to Heaven.

Honestly, I'd muss Heaven up now if I went. The first time you or I hurt one another's feelings or insulted one another or had an unpleasant argument it would cease to be a perfect utopia. I'm still not ready for Heaven, but having trusted Jesus for salvation, when the time comes, He will impart His perfection to me--I'll be ready!

How does Jesus' substitution and/or perfection help you go to heaven, specifically? I don't get the logic.

 

[Glaurung]

How does Jesus' substitution and/or perfection help you go to heaven, specifically? I don't get the logic.

When we became subject to sin we lost our sanctification and thus heaven became closed to us. The perfect sacrifice of the one without sin redeemed the world and though baptism we gain the salvific mediation between us and God through Christ. (Provided of course, that we cooperate with the grace of God as we retain the freedom to reject our redemption).

 

[leibowde84]

When we became subject to sin we lost our sanctification and thus heaven became closed to us. The perfect sacrifice of the one without sin redeemed the world and though baptism we gain the salvific mediation between us and God through Christ. (Provided of course, that we cooperate with the grace of God as we retain the freedom to reject our redemption).

But, by this logic, either God and Jesus have a separate consciousness, and Jesus felt sorry for us, or God is limited in that God had to suffer in order to open the gates of heaven. That is counter-intuitive.

 

[Glaurung]

But, by this logic, either God and Jesus have a separate consciousness, and Jesus felt sorry for us, or God is limited in that God had to suffer in order to open the gates of heaven. That is counter-intuitive.

Jesus is God but is not the Father. There is no conflict in God but it is the Son who took on the salvific role as mediator. The Holy Spirit leads us to the Son who mediates between us and the Father. Why God has chosen to operate in one way or the other is a pointless question because we can't know the mind of God. All that we do know is that the rejection of Christ is the rejection of salvation.

You claim to be Christian yet you seem make a public point in renouncing it at every turn. What exactly does Christianity even mean to you?

 

[leibowde84]

Why God has chosen to operate in one way or the other is a pointless question because we can't know the mind of God.

This is tantamount to saying, "I know it doesn't make any sense, but it's just the way it is". Not only is this a dangerous precedent, it completely separates the conversation from any semblance of reason.

 

[Noa]

This is tantamount to saying, "I know it doesn't make any sense, but it's just the way it is". Not only is this a dangerous precedent, it completely separates the conversation from any semblance of reason.

Her/his question does seem called for, however. What does Christianity mean to you? Questioning Christ's substitution and perfection seems to be a reasonable justification for asking why you are a Christian if you question such fundamental precepts.

 

[leibowde84]

Her/his question does seem called for, however. What does Christianity mean to you? Questioning Christ's substitution and perfection seems to be a reasonable justification for asking why you are a Christian if you question such fundamental precepts.

I'm inquiring why he believes what he does. I'm curious.

 

[Glaurung]

This is tantamount to saying, "I know it doesn't make any sense, but it's just the way it is". Not only is this a dangerous precedent, it completely separates the conversation from any semblance of reason.

Don't strawman. Through man the world became condemned, and through Christ as man the world was redeemed. By approaching us through a human nature, he enabled us to approach him with our human natures. And he loved us to such an extent that for our sakes he took on the greatest suffering that human nature can endure, and thus redeemed us as with a perfect atonement for our wrongs.

Did God "have" to do so, no, but the things God "could have" done is a endless game of imagination.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Hi Billiardsball :

When you say that Jesus "will impart His perfection to me", can you explain what you mean by this. For example, do you mean he will exchange an imperfect personality for a perfect personality and then save the second personality? Can you further explain? If you mean that he will, as an external force, replace personal traits of a person with other traits, do you have a model as to how this happens?

Thanks

Clear
ειτωω

Thanks for asking, Clear:

I'm a Christian but not yet perfected. The Bible sets it up this way:

1. Christ was perfect, without sin, in a human body. God poured into flesh like milk in a milk container.

2. Christ after His death and resurrection returned in a glorified body.

3. The apostles explain that this body of Christ's will be like the ones given other persons as they resurrect unto judgment.

4. Again, being imperfect, I'm not ready to encounter God the Father but will enter His presence, made ready at that time.

5. Jesus came to do what I could not. Jesus did nothing deserving of death, and died, being perfect, as my stand-in. Anyone who of their free will trusts Christ for salvation will likewise be perfected.

 

[BilliardsBall]

How does Jesus' substitution and/or perfection help you go to heaven, specifically? I don't get the logic.

My concern if "you don't get it" is the same concern as the apostles, who wrote specifically that the gospel of Jesus Christ is foolishness to the lost, a boon to the saved. I do not know if you are saved or lost, but by way of analogy I might say it would seem foolish to you if I said, "Great news! I paid that huge debt you owe because I care for you!" and your reply was, "Are you nuts? I don't owe anyone anything!"

In both testaments, sin demands sacrifice, and not only this, but a perfect sacrifice(s). The ancient lambs, calves, etc. had to be without blemishes, tumors, handicaps, amputations... I deserve death for my sin. Jesus, being a perfect sacrifice, propitiated God in His sacrifice. "Propitiated," the word used in Romans 3 for Christ's atoning death, refers to the appeasement of the divine by sacrifice. "Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith," that is, God said, "Look! I publicly sacrificed Jesus as your atonement to be received via faith = belief = trust.

If one believes good deeds will escort them to Heaven, "I'm no Billy Graham but I'm no Hitler, either," which is to say, "I judge my brother and fellow human as more wicked than I, and thank God they are more evil than I, for now I can earn my way to Heaven by being imperfect but better than they are," then Christ's payment of our propitiation, our sacrifice, our debt, is lunacy.

If, however, one acknowledges that no matter what we do, or want to do, or wish or will to do, attempt to do, that we can never be perfect without aid, if we rely on Christ's perfect payment for our imperfection, we will praise God for his mercy.

Thanks.

 

[leibowde84]

My concern if "you don't get it" is the same concern as the apostles, who wrote specifically that the gospel of Jesus Christ is foolishness to the lost, a boon to the saved. I do not know if you are saved or lost, but by way of analogy I might say it would seem foolish to you if I said, "Great news! I paid that huge debt you owe because I care for you!" and your reply was, "Are you nuts? I don't owe anyone anything!"

In both testaments, sin demands sacrifice, and not only this, but a perfect sacrifice(s). The ancient lambs, calves, etc. had to be without blemishes, tumors, handicaps, amputations... I deserve death for my sin. Jesus, being a perfect sacrifice, propitiated God in His sacrifice. "Propitiated," the word used in Romans 3 for Christ's atoning death, refers to the appeasement of the divine by sacrifice. "Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith," that is, God said, "Look! I publicly sacrificed Jesus as your atonement to be received via faith = belief = trust.

If one believes good deeds will escort them to Heaven, "I'm no Billy Graham but I'm no Hitler, either," which is to say, "I judge my brother and fellow human as more wicked than I, and thank God they are more evil than I, for now I can earn my way to Heaven by being imperfect but better than they are," then Christ's payment of our propitiation, our sacrifice, our debt, is lunacy.

If, however, one acknowledges that no matter what we do, or want to do, or wish or will to do, attempt to do, that we can never be perfect without aid, if we rely on Christ's perfect payment for our imperfection, we will praise God for his mercy.

Thanks.

Responsibility for wrongdoing is not a debt. Sure, even now someone can pay your debt or even go to jail for you. But, none of that erases the responsibility for what you did.

 

[BilliardsBall]

But, by this logic, either God and Jesus have a separate consciousness, and Jesus felt sorry for us, or God is limited in that God had to suffer in order to open the gates of heaven. That is counter-intuitive.

I'll respond to the question if I may:

Your choice set is limited, you have:

* God and Jesus are separate entities and Jesus's desires are not God's or

* God HAD to suffer

When a little gedanken offers the following:

* God didn't have to suffer, but wanted to show people sin is really, really, bad

* God didn't have to suffer, but wanted to show people future judgment of Hell is coming

* Sin kills--adultery can kill a marriage--drunkenness can kill a relationship--drunk driving can kill more than the drunk driver--and so, sin leading to death, human sin was directed onto Christ for God's mercy

* The natural state of a god is to demand appeasement, just as the natural state of a correct parent is to correct and train children or to desire the offering of "praise" for doing good parenting, so God said, "If I make humans, they cannot make a worthy enough sacrifice and I'll step in--what Paul calls "...so that He might be just AND the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus"

I'd further suggest that people get into knots about the tri-unity of God (three in one, one in three) in that since God cannot be unveiled in the presence of men without destroying them--He's seven times brighter than the sun and would burn you to a shadow on the wall like a nearby atomic device being detonated--God poured Himself into a man in Christ for us. Sure it was the Son, subordinate in love to the Father, but good Jewish sons obey their parents.

Or look at it this way--a little gem I came up with by the grace of God this week... I personally don't believe man ever set foot on the moon. Because he didn't! Not a bare foot, anyway, as man has never touched the moon itself but was in a suit for his protection. While man has been to the moon, he's never touched its surface. Jesus put on a suit of human flesh to protect us, not Himself... and ultimately? To sacrifice that suit of flesh for us and to suffer for us.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Responsibility for wrongdoing is not a debt. Sure, even now someone can pay your debt or even go to jail for you. But, none of that erases the responsibility for what you did.

An argument I've heard before, and many times. It's more than a debt. Mentioned also in the scriptures are ransom, atonement, appeasement, offering, voluntary desire, gift, etc.

But what most modern commentators miss is the relationship of a king to His subjects. Embedded in the Bible are numerous prophecies of Christ as king, literal kingly descendant of David in line to David's throne, kings of other nations and more. A king can on His own, without checking with His subjects, embroil His land in a war or sue for peace. Our King died for His nation, His people. It is enough. It is... finished.

Or taken further, you may say, "nah, this guy is a killer, and he's going to jail," but a Presidential pardon can only release a person already convicted of a crime. And if you saw a President say, "I'm taking the bullet for this guy," it would be more than enough to satisfy justice, indeed it would be a wonder to the world. And this is what Jesus is to the world, and in a great way. His kingly sacrifice is still remarked upon as the supreme example of self-sacrifice.

 

[leibowde84]

An argument I've heard before, and many times. It's more than a debt. Mentioned also in the scriptures are ransom, atonement, appeasement, offering, voluntary desire, gift, etc.

But what most modern commentators miss is the relationship of a king to His subjects. Embedded in the Bible are numerous prophecies of Christ as king, literal kingly descendant of David in line to David's throne, kings of other nations and more. A king can on His own, without checking with His subjects, embroil His land in a war or sue for peace. Our King died for His nation, His people. It is enough. It is... finished.

Again, this doesn't answer the question. You seem to be reaching for an answer, but come to the conclusion that we just don't understand. But, since I can't fathom being able to take on the responsibility of someone else's wrongdoing, I am going to keep pressing for an answer.

 

[Clear]

My question is very similar to leibode84s. And, I think Leibode84 is correct in pointing out, you are not answering the basic question.

1) Billiardsball said : “…He will impart His perfection to me…” (post #1)
2) Clear asked : “ When you say that Jesus "will impart His perfection to me", can you explain what you mean by this. For example, do you mean he will exchange an imperfect personality for a perfect personality and then save the second personality? Can you further explain? If you mean that he will, as an external force, replace personal traits of a person with other traits, do you have a model as to how this happens?” (post # 2)
3) Billiardsball said : “ …I'm not ready to encounter God the Father but will enter His presence, made ready at that time.” (post #11)

This is not an explanation, but is simply be a re-worded, re-statement of your claim in post #1. What I am asking is HOW YOU expect to obtain actual perfection from the perfection of any other being (in this case, Jesus).



Clear
νεφιω

 

[Deidre]

But, by this logic, either God and Jesus have a separate consciousness, and Jesus felt sorry for us, or God is limited in that God had to suffer in order to open the gates of heaven. That is counter-intuitive.

Or...maybe it is just too unfathomable to know the unknown. Or...The Unknown.

When I left Christianity, it was largely because logically, the Bible didn't make sense to me. But, an experience of faith can change it all. It isn't enough (imo) to read the Bible and just blindly believe. It is a hard book of stories to 'believe.' But, when you experience things that are talked about within the Bible, the book makes a bit more sense. But, it will never be perfectly logical. And maybe that is because we are simply not meant to know...The Unknown.

 

[Deidre]

Jesus didn't do anything wrong to deserve death, and by torture. Jesus came to do what we cannot do for ourselves. I'm a Christian for years and many others on this forum aren't Christians, yet all of us strive to be decent people and to better ourselves--all without achieving perfection. This is the doctrine of Christianity, Jesus died as my substitute, His perfection helping me go to Heaven.

Honestly, I'd muss Heaven up now if I went. The first time you or I hurt one another's feelings or insulted one another or had an unpleasant argument it would cease to be a perfect utopia. I'm still not ready for Heaven, but having trusted Jesus for salvation, when the time comes, He will impart His perfection to me--I'll be ready!

Your post stirs a lot inside of me about the faith. I left it for a few years, and having come back...I've learned...that Jesus was always there. He always loved me. He lets us leave Him. And then He comes to find us. I didn't go seeking Jesus, but a few weeks ago, He sought me. And in an instant, I realized who this Jesus is. And He is not what I thought, He is better than I imagined.

That is how much He loves us...He lets us leave. But, be careful to not worry too much about heaven, or if you are ready. All we need to be, is ready to love Him. All good things will flow from that, and you needn't worry.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Again, this doesn't answer the question. You seem to be reaching for an answer, but come to the conclusion that we just don't understand. But, since I can't fathom being able to take on the responsibility of someone else's wrongdoing, I am going to keep pressing for an answer.

I think we can understand in the Bible how it is that Christ substituted for us.

I think you can certainly understand how to take on the responsibility of someone else's wrongdoing. For example, we are members on another thread, about abortion. And I have mentioned how a woman who is raped and impregnated may choose to bring to term a beautiful loved and cherished baby, a happy product of someone else's wrongdoing.