What is Contemplative Christianity?

[sojourner]

And volume two...

W.T.F???!!!
Who are these bozos we've never heard of, and what makes them an authority on the vilification of such esteemed historic Christian figures, such as the Church Fathers (who were anything but "fringe," as the "author" claims), Teresa of Avila and John Chrysostom? Who makes them an "authority" on modern spiritual leaders, long held in high regard by the mainstream -- not only Roman Catholic, but Protestant; people like Thomas Keating, Thomas Merton, Teilhard de Chardin and Henri Nouwen? I know Brian McLaren and Phyllis Tickle. And Doug Pagitt is well-known in the mainstream.

Their biggest mistake is in thinking that the Emergent Movement, midwifed by people like Pagitt, McLaren and Tickle, has anything to do with either gimmickry or New Age frou-frou.

These people (whoever they are -- whatever fringe sect they're part of) certainly turn away from the highly experiential spirituality that Jesus taught, through such sacraments as baptism and the Euchrarist. They don't bother to notice that all religious expression is ritual, and that it all comes from earlier ritual. And they're certainly highly involved in bibliolatry.

All done up nicely in some dispensational, eschatological package, replete with ominous music and lots of "diabolical" flames. This is nothing more than "Left Behind" B.S., propagated by fear and exclusionary religion.

 

[Windwalker]

The devil is created by fear. These people are terrified by life. They create the devil out from themselves. And their fear spreads as a disease to others who are also terrified by it. There is no freedom from fear, no liberty of the heart and mind, spirit and soul, as there is no perfected Love which casts out fear. I am correct to call this a spiritual disease.

Fear is irrational, and no amount of reason against these arguments of theirs will prevail. It's based in fear. I'm thankful to come to understand the source of these criticisms, and so the video has served a good.

 

[sojourner]

Two other things I'd like to mention about the videos:
1) Why in the world would they lump in Benny Hinn and Rick Warren with Thomas Merton and Teilhard de Chardin -- as if they espouse the same kind of spirituality at all???
2) The "experts" mentioned that true spirituality can only be obtained by studying the bible, yet they turn right around and say that spiritual growth isn't an intellectual process -- completely ignoring the fact that reading the bible is an intellectual process. Either God enters through the mind or through the senses, so which is it, guys??

 

[InChrist]

Fear is not the issue, as much as you both, (Windwalker and Sojourner), feel the need to repeatedly toss out that accusation. The issue is truth.

I totally agree with the point you, Windwalker, made a couple posts back that everyone looks at things subjectively. That is the very reason I believe God gave us the scriptures and we all need the objective Word of God to test and correct our subjective and so often misguided thoughts and experiences, spiritual or otherwise. The New Testament is replete with warnings to hold fast to the truth and to be on guard against false teachings and doctrines of demons. Again, it is not about fear, but using wisdom, discernment, and living in God’s revealed truth.

One main truth of the scriptures is that Jesus Christ alone is the Savior of the world and He is the only mediator through whom we approach God. It is only through His love and power that each person and this world are changed, not by human effort to create a manmade utopia or contemplative/emergent practices which have no power to transform lives and deal with sin which is the pervasive cause of all the problems in the world. The person who truly cares about an individual is willing to share the “words of eternal life” (John 6:68) and an individual who has been transformed by Jesus Christ does impact this world for good as Christ lives through them...examples: Corrie ten Boom, Amy Carmichael, Harriet Tubman, William Wiberforce, George Washington Carver. Deitrick Bonhoeffer and too many more could be listed.

I don’t doubt you Sojourner and Windwalker, know a lot about mystic spirituality and the Emergent movement. So I can understand why you both get so emotional and defensive. Yet, I think it is similar to one who is trapped in the midst of a cult. Your perspectives are from the inside out having so much personal, emotional, and spiritual investment that you can’t see the big picture and are not willing, possibly even unable at this point to question whether your practices are wrong or you are being deceived.

 

[Windwalker]

Two other things I'd like to mention about the videos:
1) Why in the world would they lump in Benny Hinn and Rick Warren with Thomas Merton and Teilhard de Chardin -- as if they espouse the same kind of spirituality at all???
2) The "experts" mentioned that true spirituality can only be obtained by studying the bible, yet they turn right around and say that spiritual growth isn't an intellectual process -- completely ignoring the fact that reading the bible is an intellectual process. Either God enters through the mind or through the senses, so which is it, guys??

They haphazardly lump everything together has any sort of subjective nature to it as if it's all the same thing. This of course betrays the irrationality of the entire criticize. It's nothing but fearful ignorance, not discerning any individual differences, but scatter-gunning, rounding up all those who are not the "master race" of themselves, and consigning them to concentration camps. This is not the Spirit of Christ. Not in the very least.

They linked the whole thing back to the Azusa Street revivals in the early 1900's! Who are these people? The way that woman talked she envisions Christianity as OT Judaism! To quote her, which I think summarizes her version of Christian legalism, "If they say their intent is the honor God with it, then by definition they assume God will accept it and be pleased with it. Not according to the word of God. The word of God says they are bringing strange fire into the Church.” This is straight out of Leviticus, blending it with NT Christianity! Ridiculous. Just look at what the vision Peter had in Acts said to him. "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." What was called impure and unclean, is not recognized as a separating factor by God under Grace. They don't even read their own Bible which they worship as an idol in place of God. God judges by the heart. That is the core message of the NT. What pleases God is a pure heart, not whether you keep the laws of Leviticus.

If they really want to follow that mentality of pleasing God by keeping the law, then they are bound to keep the whole law! That is clearly stated in the NT. They need to go back to animal sacrifices, stoning their rebellious children, following strict dietary practices, and so forth. Otherwise these people are hypocrites. This form of legalism, and that is exactly what this is, is naturally an enemy of Christ because he was about the subjective heart and mind knowing God, and from there, from the inside, the law is fulfilled, not in dietary or strictly laid out temple rituals of the OT, but the law of the heart. This message is overwhelmingly the central message of Christianity. These people are not Christians. They are pseudo-levitical law wannabes, who don't even follow consistently what they are preaching.

 

[Windwalker]

I don’t doubt you Sojourner and Windwalker, know a lot about mystic spirituality and the Emergent movement. So I can understand why you both get so emotional and defensive.

First, I don't know much about the Emergent movement and am only now learning about it through this thread. I applaud it from what I'm learning of it. And as far as emotional, you are darned right. This is nothing but a pack of lies against the sacred. It is antichrist in that is care nothing for others to help them, and wants to hand them a Bible to convert them rather than feed them, or work with others to help people in the world. That offends the Spirit of Christ itself.

Defensive? Hardly. I've stated clear facts and information against the spew of lies that this people tell. It would be like saying Jesus Christ espoused White Supremacy. Of course I'm going to go after that sort of garbage. And what you posted is garbage on that level.

Yet, I think it is similar to one who is trapped in the midst of a cult. Your perspectives are from the inside out having so much personal, emotional, and spiritual investment that you can’t see the big picture and are not willing, possibly even unable at this point to question whether your practices are wrong or you are being deceived.

I am only now, after 44 pages, offended. And with good reason. If you listen with a heart that cares about others to the vial antichristian spew these hypocrites pedal, which you without discernment swallow as truth without any fact checking whatsoever, make yourself part of. You may as well say Jesus was all "emotional and defensive" for his driving out the vermin from the temple. Rather than seizing on an emotional reaction to a highly offensive, hypocritical pack-of-lies video you posted, criticize the rational, factual points raised in the last 44 pages! You can't, and so you resort to this.

Nice. Deal with everything we have stated previously to us being offended by you, and then you have something to say. Otherwise, I now see you as just like them. That version of Christianity disgusts me. It's a disease.

 

[InChrist]

Two other things I'd like to mention about the videos:
1) Why in the world would they lump in Benny Hinn and Rick Warren with Thomas Merton and Teilhard de Chardin -- as if they espouse the same kind of spirituality at all???

Benny Hinn and Rick Warren may have different approaches and spiritual practices than Thomas Merton and Teilhard de Chardin , yet they are going in the same direction using self-effort for self improvement and/or connection with God to re-invent Christianity and create God's kingdom on earth, without looking to Jesus as the author and finisher of their faith and the coming King to save this world. That is the point of lumping both Emergent and New Apostolic dominion leaders together because they are merging and will continue to converge into one all inclusive world religion.

 

[InChrist]

They haphazardly lump everything together has any sort of subjective nature to it as if it's all the same thing. This of course betrays the irrationality of the entire criticize. It's nothing but fearful ignorance, not discerning any individual differences, but scatter-gunning, rounding up all those who are not the "master race" of themselves, and consigning them to concentration camps. This is not the Spirit of Christ. Not in the very least.

They linked the whole thing back to the Azusa Street revivals in the early 1900's! Who are these people? The way that woman talked she envisions Christianity as OT Judaism! To quote her, which I think summarizes her version of Christian legalism, "If they say their intent is the honor God with it, then by definition they assume God will accept it and be pleased with it. Not according to the word of God. The word of God says they are bringing strange fire into the Church.” This is straight out of Leviticus, blending it with NT Christianity! Ridiculous. Just look at what the vision Peter had in Acts said to him. "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." What was called impure and unclean, is not recognized as a separating factor by God under Grace. They don't even read their own Bible which they worship as an idol in place of God. God judges by the heart. That is the core message of the NT. What pleases God is a pure heart, not whether you keep the laws of Leviticus.

If they really want to follow that mentality of pleasing God by keeping the law, then they are bound to keep the whole law! That is clearly stated in the NT. They need to go back to animal sacrifices, stoning their rebellious children, following strict dietary practices, and so forth. Otherwise these people are hypocrites. This form of legalism, and that is exactly what this is, is naturally an enemy of Christ because he was about the subjective heart and mind knowing God, and from there, from the inside, the law is fulfilled, not in dietary or strictly laid out temple rituals of the OT, but the law of the heart. This message is overwhelmingly the central message of Christianity. These people are not Christians. They are pseudo-levitical law wannabes, who don't even follow consistently what they are preaching.

There is nothing at all in the videos which constitutes the idea that Christians must keep the law. You are really trying to go off somewhere for your argument.

 

[Windwalker]

yet they are going in the same direction using self-effort for self improvement

Lie. This has been refuted countless times, yet your repeat this lie. It is not through self-effort at all. It is through giving up your self-effort and allowing Grace to transform you. You do not read what we say, and repeat lies. This is against the Bible. Need I show you the verses?

and/or connection with God to re-invent Christianity and create God's kingdom on earth, without looking to Jesus as the author and finisher of their faith and the coming King to save this world.

I don't know about others ideas, but Jesus said the kingdom of God was inside of you, and that the "Love God with all your heart, and others as yourself" takes place here in the world. If you don't want to love others in the world while you hope and pray for it's end so you can go to heaven, then I have nothing to say to you. That's not Christian.

That is the point of lumping both Emergent and New Apostolic dominion leaders together because they are merging and will continue to converge into one all inclusive world religion.

Paranoid conspiracy theory.

 

[InChrist]

First, I don't know much about the Emergent movement and am only now learning about it through this thread. I applaud it from what I'm learning of it. And as far as emotional, you are darned right. This is nothing but a pack of lies against the sacred. It is antichrist in that is care nothing for others to help them, and wants to hand them a Bible to convert them rather than feed them, or work with others to help people in the world. That offends the Spirit of Christ itself.

There is nothing at all in the videos which indicates that Christians are to only hand people in need a Bible to convert them without also addressing and helping their physical needs. Have you ever heard of Compassion or Samaritan ministries?

 

[Windwalker]

There is nothing at all in the videos which constitutes the idea that Christians must keep the law. You are really trying to go off somewhere for your argument.

Not at all. She was very clear that the intent of our heart meant nothing to God. We had to do what pleases God according to the Bible. That's legalism. It's saying we have to follow the law. Do the 'correct" rituals and practices, "according to the word of God", etc. That's legalism. It's all about "pleasing God" as the Lawgiver you must follow to the T or be sent to the hell these friends of your imagine for those who dare to practice any form of prayer that leads them away from their understanding of the Bible.

 

[Windwalker]

There is nothing at all in the videos which indicates that Christians are to only hand people in need a Bible for convert them without also addressing and helping their physical needs. Have you ever heard of Compassion or Samaritan ministries?

LIsten to your video. They are against what these people are doing as part of the Emergent ministries, and instead say explicitly in the video that this is the end of times and we should be trying to convert them through preaching instead. It's in your video. And you wonder why I am offended?

I'm done with this discussion with you. The people in that video disgust me, and if you agree with them, then I have nothing to say to you.

 

[InChrist]

I don't know about others ideas, but Jesus said the kingdom of God was inside of you, and that the "Love God with all your heart, and others as yourself" takes place here in the world. If you don't want to love others in the world while you hope and pray for it's end so you can go to heaven, then I have nothing to say to you. That's not Christian.

I agree it is not Christian to disregard love for others, so I'm not sure why you bring it up because no believer in Jesus Christ espouses such an idea while expecting to go to heaven themselves.

 

[Windwalker]

I have many friends who wonder at my patience with fundamentalists, where as they see it as evil. I've always tried to be understanding and compassionate, but now I think I understand that they were perhaps a bit more wise then me in my idealism.

 

[InChrist]

Not at all. She was very clear that the intent of our heart meant nothing to God. We had to do what pleases God according to the Bible. That's legalism. It's saying we have to follow the law. Do the 'correct" rituals and practices, "according to the word of God", etc. That's legalism. It's all about "pleasing God" as the Lawgiver you must follow to the T or be sent to the hell these friends of your imagine for those who dare to practice any form of prayer that leads them away from their understanding of the Bible.

Why don't you calm down? I think intent does matter and God understands our intentions and motives. Yet, speaking for myself (not accusing you) even sincere intentions can be wrong because we as humans are self centered. The Bible does say that the heart is deceitful and I believe it because I've seen it enough in myself. I think the point is not that we be legalistic, but willing to test all things and let the word of God be our trusted foundation. I certainly want to please God as I would want to please any close and important person in my life, God being the most important.

 

[InChrist]

I have many friends who wonder at my patience with fundamentalists, where as they see it as evil. I've always tried to be understanding and compassionate, but now I think I understand that they were perhaps a bit more wise then me in my idealism.

It is interesting the way you use the word "fundamentalists" with a negative connotation. Yet, the word simply implies that one adheres to basic or fundamental principles, in the case of one who believes the Bible it would mean the fundamental doctrines or teachings of the scriptures. I think that is a good thing rather than to depart from the faith which was once and for all delivered to the saints.

 

[sojourner]

The issue is truth.

No, it's not, for there is barely a shred of truth in either of the videos. That being the case, the issue could be either confirmation bias, or willful ignorance --either of which are born of fear -- but not truth.

I believe God gave us the scriptures and we all need the objective Word of God to test and correct our subjective and so often misguided thoughts and experiences, spiritual or otherwise.

The bible is far from "objective." Far from it. The bible isn't (as has been pointed out many times) the "word of God." It is a written collection of the (usually oral) Tradition of the community of faith.

Again, it is not about fear, but using wisdom, discernment, and living in God’s revealed truth.

the "experts" certainly haven't shown much in the way of either wisdom of discernment, with their treatment of both spiritual formation practices and the Emergent Movement, because they've somehow, in their Eminent Wisdom, managed to misrepresent both.

One main truth of the scriptures is that Jesus Christ alone is the Savior of the world and He is the only mediator through whom we approach God.

No one in the Emergent Movement disagrees with that. No Christian who engages in spiritual formation does, either.

It is only through His love and power that each person and this world are changed, not by human effort to create a manmade utopia or contemplative/emergent practices which have no power to transform lives and deal with sin which is the pervasive cause of all the problems in the world.

But we have to meet God halfway. Jesus didn't just sit back and wait for God to feed the hungry. He told his disciples to feed the multitude. Jesus sent 70 of his disciples out to preach, heal and drive out demons -- not God. god gave us the world to take care of, which means that it is partly our job to live into who God created us to be, and it's up to us to honor all people as children of God, and the earth as the body of God.

The person who truly cares about an individual is willing to share the “words of eternal life”

And just what are those words? Those words are that we are all created as the imago dei, and that we are all loved and deserving of love. Those words remind us of the original Word at the core of our being -- the word of love that spoke creation into existence -- and enjoin us to remember that word and to live it out as the core of our identity.

So I can understand why you both get so emotional and defensive.

We're not defensive. We're derisive of the sort of faux scholarship and faux spiritualism that so blithely misrepresents this very deep and important part of Christianity as "demonic." It's irresponsible, it's disingenuous, and it's unethical.

Yet, I think it is similar to one who is trapped in the midst of a cult. Your perspectives are from the inside out having so much personal, emotional, and spiritual investment that you can’t see the big picture and are not willing, possibly even unable at this point to question whether your practices are wrong or you are being deceived.

The operative term in this ridiculous opinion is "I think." You think. There's a difference between seeing the fidelity of the Emergent Movement with the heart of Christianity and seeing demons in every corner that disagrees with one's particular, uninformed take on religion. But your hubris and condescension in being able to "counsel" us in our "blindness" is touching -- in a saccharin, sort of mawkish way.

 

[sojourner]

First, I don't know much about the Emergent movement and am only now learning about it through this thread.

If you want to really learn more, read the people the videos so blithely decry: Phyllis Tickle, Brian McLaren, and Doug Pagitt, among others. Go online and look up the web page of the House for All Sinners and Saints. It's one of the largest and most successful emergent congregations in the nation, and it's pastored by an ordained ELCA pastor.

 

[sojourner]

Benny Hinn and Rick Warren may have different approaches and spiritual practices than Thomas Merton and Teilhard de Chardin , yet they are going in the same direction using self-effort for self improvement and/or connection with God to re-invent Christianity and create God's kingdom on earth, without looking to Jesus as the author and finisher of their faith and the coming King to save this world.

Benny Hinn and Rick Warren may be doing that, but the others patently are not doing that. Hinn is a charlatan and Warren has sold out to commercialism and Pop-theology. Merton and Teilhard are both deep and solid theologically. They've managed to hit the spiritual nail on the head, these "authorities (whoever they are) don't like it, so they put out these ad hominem attacks.

That is the point of lumping both Emergent and New Apostolic dominion leaders together because they are merging and will continue to converge into one all inclusive world religion.

Ha! If you knew anything at all about the Emergent Movement, and about people like Nouwen, Merton and Keating, you'd know that they all celebrate unity in diversity, and are not looking for the sort of imperialistic religion that you accuse them of promoting. Neither did the Desert Fathers, John Chrysostom, or Teresa of Avila. These people all are working for peace and unity -- not subjection and uniformity. The church has always worked for these things, which is the very reason why the fledgling Christian community could so readily accept the Gentiles (who wrote the NT, BTW).

Get real and get lucid, and stop spewing ignorant venom.

 

[InChrist]

No, it's not, for there is barely a shred of truth in either of the videos. That being the case, the issue could be either confirmation bias, or willful ignorance --either of which are born of fear -- but not truth.

The bible is far from "objective." Far from it. The bible isn't (as has been pointed out many times) the "word of God." It is a written collection of the (usually oral) Tradition of the community of faith.

the "experts" certainly haven't shown much in the way of either wisdom of discernment, with their treatment of both spiritual formation practices and the Emergent Movement, because they've somehow, in their Eminent Wisdom, managed to misrepresent both.

No one in the Emergent Movement disagrees with that. No Christian who engages in spiritual formation does, either.

But we have to meet God halfway. Jesus didn't just sit back and wait for God to feed the hungry. He told his disciples to feed the multitude. Jesus sent 70 of his disciples out to preach, heal and drive out demons -- not God. god gave us the world to take care of, which means that it is partly our job to live into who God created us to be, and it's up to us to honor all people as children of God, and the earth as the body of God.

And just what are those words? Those words are that we are all created as the imago dei, and that we are all loved and deserving of love. Those words remind us of the original Word at the core of our being -- the word of love that spoke creation into existence -- and enjoin us to remember that word and to live it out as the core of our identity.

We're not defensive. We're derisive of the sort of faux scholarship and faux spiritualism that so blithely misrepresents this very deep and important part of Christianity as "demonic." It's irresponsible, it's disingenuous, and it's unethical.

The operative term in this ridiculous opinion is "I think." You think. There's a difference between seeing the fidelity of the Emergent Movement with the heart of Christianity and seeing demons in every corner that disagrees with one's particular, uninformed take on religion. But your hubris and condescension in being able to "counsel" us in our "blindness" is touching -- in a saccharin, sort of mawkish way.

I've never heard anyone say the earth is the body of God, that is new to me and it is a concept totally foreign to the scriptures. And the idea that all people are children of God is biblically incorrect. Only those who believe on the name of Jesus Christ and receive Him are children of God (John 1:12). But if you don't believe the scriptures are the word of God preserved through the ages then there is probably not much point in our continuing discussion.