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What is Contemplative Christianity?

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
There is nothing at all in the videos which indicates that Christians are to only hand people in need a Bible to convert them without also addressing and helping their physical needs.
Yes. There is. They talk about "reinventing the gospel to appeal to the culture," which is a patent lie. Then they talk about simply taking a bible to these people and preaching the gospel that's in the bible. Which is precisely what the Emergents and the mystics are doing. Therefore, these people must be talking about something else, which I can only imagine is spreading their own "version" of "the biblical truth." Which amounts to ... conversion. Emergents are more concerned with social justice than with doctrine. They are more moved by real spiritual experiences and theological circumstances than they are with reading about such things. They are more concerned with right actions than with righteousness. All of which does meet the lost where they are and bring the gospel of love and acceptance to them.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Yet, the word simply implies that one adheres to basic or fundamental principles, in the case of one who believes the Bible it would mean the fundamental doctrines or teachings of the scriptures.
It means a certain group's take on perceived fundamental doctrines -- not the doctrines, themselves (if any exist).
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Benny Hinn and Rick Warren may be doing that, but the others patently are not doing that. Hinn is a charlatan and Warren has sold out to commercialism and Pop-theology. Merton and Teilhard are both deep and solid theologically. They've managed to hit the spiritual nail on the head, these "authorities (whoever they are) don't like it, so they put out these ad hominem attacks.

Ha! If you knew anything at all about the Emergent Movement, and about people like Nouwen, Merton and Keating, you'd know that they all celebrate unity in diversity, and are not looking for the sort of imperialistic religion that you accuse them of promoting. Neither did the Desert Fathers, John Chrysostom, or Teresa of Avila. These people all are working for peace and unity -- not subjection and uniformity. The church has always worked for these things, which is the very reason why the fledgling Christian community could so readily accept the Gentiles (who wrote the NT, BTW).

Get real and get lucid, and stop spewing ignorant venom.
I don't recall that anyone in the videos claimed to be an authority or and expert, yet you keep calling them such.
Do you really think that people of the world can come together and achieve peace and celebrate unity in spiritual diversity, apart from forgiveness of their sins and salvation in Jesus Christ?
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I've never heard anyone say the earth is the body of God
Your loss. You should read Sallie McFague and other constructive theologians.
it is a concept totally foreign to the scriptures.
No. It's not. Science has shown us that all creation is made of the same elemental dust. That dust was spewed in the Big Bang -- the sound of God speaking creation into existence. Therefore, everything, at its creational core, is made of the stuff of God. The universe is God's body, and it's completely congruent with scripture. Too bad you can't see it.
And the idea that all people are children of God is biblically incorrect.
No. It's not. If that were the case, there would be no concept of hospitality and acceptance that runs throughout the bible.
Only those who believe on the name of Jesus Christ and receive Him are children of God
Not true. The Jews didn't have Jesus, and they're the people of God. It's in the biggest part of the bible.
But if you don't believe the scriptures are the word of God preserved through the ages then there is probably not much point in our continuing discussion.
If you don't believe that the bible is something other than a magically-produced thing that fell out of the sky, then there's probably not much point in our continuing discussion. Except for the fact that, as you continue to spout misinformation about either the Emergent Movement or spiritual formation practices, You'll be hearing from me.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I don't recall that anyone in the videos claimed to be an authority or and expert, yet you keep called them such.
You believe them readily enough. You must think they're some kind of authority on the subject. They certainly speak as though they're authorities on the subject.
Do you really think that people of the world can come together and achieve peace and celebrate unity in spiritual diversity, apart from forgiveness of their sins and salvation in Jesus Christ?
I hope so. If we can learn to honor each other and give up our petty stances of exclusivity where divinity is concerned, I think that good will happen. That's hope, my friend. Something your statement here seems suspiciously bereft of.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Yes. There is. They talk about "reinventing the gospel to appeal to the culture," which is a patent lie. Then they talk about simply taking a bible to these people and preaching the gospel that's in the bible. Which is precisely what the Emergents and the mystics are doing. Therefore, these people must be talking about something else, which I can only imagine is spreading their own "version" of "the biblical truth." Which amounts to ... conversion. Emergents are more concerned with social justice than with doctrine. They are more moved by real spiritual experiences and theological circumstances than they are with reading about such things. They are more concerned with right actions than with righteousness. All of which does meet the lost where they are and bring the gospel of love and acceptance to them.
So what do you think "their version" of the gospel is compared to the gospel the Emergent and mystic brings?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
You believe them readily enough. You must think they're some kind of authority on the subject. They certainly speak as though they're authorities on the subject.

I hope so. If we can learn to honor each other and give up our petty stances of exclusivity where divinity is concerned, I think that good will happen. That's hope, my friend. Something your statement here seems suspiciously bereft of.
I have enormous hope in Christ!!!
I am enjoying this chat with you. despite our different perspectives, but I really do have to get going now as I am making a meal for my neighbor who has a lot to deal with right now.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
So what do you think "their version" of the gospel is compared to the gospel the Emergent and mystic brings?
I think the fundamentalist gospel is extremely narrow and judgmental in its scope: "Believe in Jesus or die." I think the fundamentalist gospel tries to argue for a particular ontology and cosmology, loosely couched in theological terms, rather than presenting various theological arguments that honor the nature of who people are. I think the fundamentalist gospel doesn't point toward love, for love is unconditional, and does not insist on its own way. But their gospel would have everyone conform to some predetermined "understanding."

As evidenced in the videos (as opposed to various Emergent messages I've heard), the presenters make no room made for any viewpoint other than the "accepted, 'biblical' viewpoint." I've never heard an Emergent proponent speak against fundamentalism. Do you see the difference? Fundamentalism judges truth. Emergent accepts truth.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I have enormous hope in Christ!!!
I am enjoying this chat with you. despite our different perspectives, but I really do have to get going now as I am making a meal for my neighbor who has a lot to deal with right now.
Unfortunately, you don't appear to hold out much hope for humanity as either the image of God or as agents of Christ. Go minister to your neighbor. That's more important than this.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Thanks for your thoughts, but I don’t think you were very clear in telling me what the gospel is of the Emergent/mystic.

You have mainly stated that you think the gospel the fundamentalists believe the Bible teaches is "Believe in Jesus or die'", is extremely narrow and judgmental, does not point toward love, and would have everyone conform to a predetermined understanding. But the Bible is clear that we are already dead in sin and separated from God, so to believe in Jesus is LIFE according to the belief of one who holds to the fundamental teaching of the scriptures, abundant life, now and for eternity. This is the opposite of what you are saying and seem to have a confused understanding about.

The scriptures do say that the way of life is narrow...

Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matthew 7:14 (also Luke 13:24)

And we are not to be conformed to this world, but be transformed and conformed to Jesus Christ...

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2


For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:22 (also Philippians 3;9-10)


And that the greatest love God demonstrated was His love in sending Jesus to die and pay for our sins ...

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Offering eternal life and freedom to anyone who believes this good news...

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

This is the fundamental gospel truth that sets one free...

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32

I will say you are correct. I do not have hope in humanity and see it as obvious that we are in a downward spiral because sin rages on. My hope is in Jesus Christ alone to redeem this earth, fallen humanity, and restore the image of God to those who come to Him. I think that any attempt of humans to do this on their own or create an all-inclusive, ecumenical, world of peace and unity will end up becoming just the opposite a world devoid of real love and freedom.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Not true. The Jews didn't have Jesus, and they're the people of God. It's in the biggest part of the bible.

If you don't believe that the bible is something other than a magically-produced thing that fell out of the sky, then there's probably not much point in our continuing discussion. Except for the fact that, as you continue to spout misinformation about either the Emergent Movement or spiritual formation practices, You'll be hearing from me.

The Jews are the people of God whom He chose to use to bring forth His God-breathed, inspired written Word and the promised Messiah. I agree they did not have Jesus, but they did have the promise of the Savior and many had faith in this promise. Along with that, those who first came to believe in Jesus and realize who He was when He came to earth were Jews.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The Jews are the people of God whom He chose to use to bring forth His God-breathed, inspired written Word and the promised Messiah. I agree they did not have Jesus, but they did have the promise of the Savior and many had faith in this promise. Along with that, those who first came to believe in Jesus and realize who He was when He came to earth were Jews.

What is more likely? That the creator of the whole Universe shows preference for a tribe in the middle east, or that a tribe in the middle east made up a God that shows preference for them?

Ciao

- viole
 

InChrist

Free4ever
What is more likely? That the creator of the whole Universe shows preference for a tribe in the middle east, or that a tribe in the middle east made up a God that shows preference for them?

Ciao

- viole
According to the scriptures, God chose the nation of Israel for specific purposes to be fulfilled on the earth and that is most likely from my view.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You have mainly stated that you think the gospel the fundamentalists believe the Bible teaches is "Believe in Jesus or die'", is extremely narrow and judgmental, does not point toward love, and would have everyone conform to a predetermined understanding.
Correct.
But the Bible is clear that we are already dead in sin and separated from God
The bible is also clear that our natural state is to be alive as the imago dei.
to believe in Jesus is LIFE according to the belief of one who holds to the fundamental teaching of the scriptures, abundant life, now and for eternity.
What is it that we're supposed to believe about Jesus? Irenaeus (a student of the beloved John through Polycarp) speaks of creation coming out of the very "substance" of God. Science now tells us that all matter is constructed of the same elements found in the Big Bang. The matter of life comes directly from the womb of God's Being. Irenaeus saw humanity as coming from God's Heart, and the need for us to recognize that fact. He speaks of Christ as "recapitulating" creation -- IOW, Christ brings into focus the essence of what was previously said in creation but has been forgotten or obscured. He says that Christ recapitulates the "primal." Christ reconnects us to the first and most primal energies within creation and the human form. Christ comes to reunite us to the Heart of God.

To put it another way, Christ comes to lead us into our inheritance which, as Paul says according to Acts, is to know that we are "God's offspring."
The scriptures do say that the way of life is narrow...
Indeed it is! But not in the way you and most fundamentalists imagine. "Becoming a Christian" isn't "the narrow way." The narrow way of life is the way of love. Because Jesus' way is the way of love, Jesus' truth is the truth of love, and Jesus' life is the life of love. Anyone ... anyone who lives the way, truth and life of love follows that narrow way -- no matter who or what they "believe in" as a religious system.
And we are not to be conformed to this world, but be transformed and conformed to Jesus Christ...
The way of the Roman world (in which Paul was writing) was a way of domination, inhumanity, and inequity -- a way the disregarded peoples' sovereignty and that ravaged the earth's resources. But Christ comes, not to separate us from creation, but to call us into harmony with the Heart of the universe.
And that the greatest love God demonstrated was His love in sending Jesus to die and pay for our sins ...
Love doesn't insist on retribution. Nor does love require "payment." Jesus died because of human sin. The greatest love God demonstrated was to send Jesus to say "creation" and "life" to us again.
Offering eternal life and freedom to anyone who believes this good news...
What's either "good" or "news" about the belief that (as the Westminster confession says) we are "opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil," or about the belief that our deepest energies come from a sinful place? What's so "gospel" about undermining our sense of self? The "gospel" to which many fundamentalists adhere is such a gospel, and that the only way to escape eternal destruction is to "believe that Jesus died to save us from our sinful nature."
This is the fundamental gospel truth that sets one free...
This is the fundamental gospel "truth" that keeps us captive to a false sense of our deepest nature.
I will say you are correct. I do not have hope in humanity and see it as obvious that we are in a downward spiral because sin rages on.
So you have no hope in those whom God created to be the queens and kings of creation? You have no hope in the image of God to be the image of God? Then you also mistrust the relationships in the midst of which God is found. How very sad. I absolutely refuse to be part of any Christianity that insists on being at such odds with the deepest yearnings of the human soul.
My hope is in Jesus Christ alone to redeem this earth, fallen humanity, and restore the image of God to those who come to Him.
Jesus does that, but he does it in conjunction with humanity.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The Jews are the people of God whom He chose to use to bring forth His God-breathed, inspired written Word
Baloney. The bible is neither "God-breathed" nor "God's written word."
I agree they did not have Jesus, but they did have the promise of the Savior and many had faith in this promise.
What about those who didn't -- and don't? Does God arbitrarily "kick them out of the family?" That's simply incongruent with teachings such as the Prodigal.
Along with that, those who first came to believe in Jesus and realize who He was when He came to earth were Jews.
Not all Jews, though. What of the others?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Indeed it is! But not in the way you and most fundamentalists imagine. "Becoming a Christian" isn't "the narrow way." The narrow way of life is the way of love. Because Jesus' way is the way of love, Jesus' truth is the truth of love, and Jesus' life is the life of love. Anyone ... anyone who lives the way, truth and life of love follows that narrow way -- no matter who or what they "believe in" as a religious system.
This is exactly correct. The wide path is the way of self-interest at the expense of others. The entire passage in Luke 13 where Jesus speaks of this is being directed to those who call themselves religious, but do not follow the way. They claim the inheritance of faith, saying Abraham was our father, but Jesus said this amounts to nothing, and they are self-deceived if they hold fast to the belief that matters. It is precisely the same thing with those who lay claim to an inheritance by saying they believe in Jesus. But their hearts betray what they lack. This is why he says that many will profess faith in him, but in fact never followed him. These religious folk Jesus spoke this to could look at all the trappings of their religion and compare themselves to others in their 'steadfastness' to the beliefs and practices, but they amounted to nothing.

When Jesus said, "If you would have known the Father you would have known me," I see this as the heart of what is in this "narrow versus wide" path saying. If we know the Father, we can see the Christ in places and ways in which our theological minds would not normally allow. It is seeing and hearing through the path of love, the narrow gate, and it does not judge according to how man judges, or how man's religions judge. The "fundamentalist" is return to strict religious observance, and nothing more. It is not an opening to Christ within, to Love, which sees another as ourselves, which sees ourselves through the eyes of God's Love towards us. It judges others because it is already condemned in its separation from God. We separate ourselves when we do not love ourselves as God loves us.

What makes the gate narrow, is hardy being uber strict in religious observances! That's easy, and it's rotted fruit attest of its unhelpfulness. That narrow gate is one where we no longer seek to understand of our own efforts, but to give all away for the sake of love alone, to become love itself in the world through dying to self. Few are so willing to truly release all they have for this, and instead become religious as a mask of their own self-deception. What was the example of Jesus? 'Who being in the form of God did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped but emptied himself... even to death.' There is your self-emptying. The narrow way, is the path of self-emptying into Love. It does not consider our own life, our ego-self and its desires, the goal of our being, but releases itself into God. And in this, we find LIfe itself. We leave the questions we have aside, and simply live Love.

The wide path, is the path of avoiding this, in all the very many and various forms, some obvious, and other evil and insidious. The religious mask is the "wolf in sheep's clothing", as it appears to serve God while praising his name, but all the while serves itself. The more religious, the more fundamental, the more self-serving. "By their fruit you shall know them". Not their theology.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
This is exactly correct. The wide path is the way of self-interest at the expense of others. The entire passage in Luke 13 where Jesus speaks of this is being directed to those who call themselves religious, but do not follow the way. They claim the inheritance of faith, saying Abraham was our father, but Jesus said this amounts to nothing, and they are self-deceived if they hold fast to the belief that matters. It is precisely the same thing with those who lay claim to an inheritance by saying they believe in Jesus. But their hearts betray what they lack. This is why he says that many will profess faith in him, but in fact never followed him. These religious folk Jesus spoke this to could look at all the trappings of their religion and compare themselves to others in their 'steadfastness' to the beliefs and practices, but they amounted to nothing.

When Jesus said, "If you would have known the Father you would have known me," I see this as the heart of what is in this "narrow versus wide" path saying. If we know the Father, we can see the Christ in places and ways in which our theological minds would not normally allow. It is seeing and hearing through the path of love, the narrow gate, and it does not judge according to how man judges, or how man's religions judge. The "fundamentalist" is return to strict religious observance, and nothing more. It is not an opening to Christ within, to Love, which sees another as ourselves, which sees ourselves through the eyes of God's Love towards us. It judges others because it is already condemned in its separation from God. We separate ourselves when we do not love ourselves as God loves us.

What makes the gate narrow, is hardy being uber strict in religious observances! That's easy, and it's rotted fruit attest of its unhelpfulness. That narrow gate is one where we no longer seek to understand of our own efforts, but to give all away for the sake of love alone, to become love itself in the world through dying to self. Few are so willing to truly release all they have for this, and instead become religious as a mask of their own self-deception. What was the example of Jesus? 'Who being in the form of God did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped but emptied himself... even to death.' There is your self-emptying. The narrow way, is the path of self-emptying into Love. It does not consider our own life, our ego-self and its desires, the goal of our being, but releases itself into God. And in this, we find LIfe itself. We leave the questions we have aside, and simply live Love.

The wide path, is the path of avoiding this, in all the very many and various forms, some obvious, and other evil and insidious. The religious mask is the "wolf in sheep's clothing", as it appears to serve God while praising his name, but all the while serves itself. The more religious, the more fundamental, the more self-serving. "By their fruit you shall know them". Not their theology.
I like this, and one thing you said jumped out at me. You said, "We leave the questions we have aside, and simply love." So many fundamentalists will tell you that the bible "answers all life's questions," and that it is "the owner's manual for life." And so they spend all their time and energy rummaging around, trying to cherry pick the "pat answers" to every doubt of faith (not realizing that the doubt, itself, is a necessary (and welcome) part of spiritual development and maturity. The ability to hold the tough questions and live in that liminal space is what spirituality is all about. Instead of "simply loving" the unlovable, the outcast, the sinner, the untouchable, they seek to provide "pat answers" to them, telling them how e-e-e-e-e-e-e-vi-i-i-i-i-l they are, and how they're gonna fry in hell if they don't "accept JAY-zus." Jesus never said, "Believe these particular things about me." Jesus said, "Do what I do." Which is loving those most especially in need of love.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I like this, and one thing you said jumped out at me. You said, "We leave the questions we have aside, and simply love." So many fundamentalists will tell you that the bible "answers all life's questions," and that it is "the owner's manual for life." And so they spend all their time and energy rummaging around, trying to cherry pick the "pat answers" to every doubt of faith (not realizing that the doubt, itself, is a necessary (and welcome) part of spiritual development and maturity.
It's a bit of a mystery how this works. I think it's a sign of insecurity to try to find the answers. We think that if we can figure out the truth, then we will have peace. But it doesn't work like this. Most often seeking answers with such a goal in mind will only result in a temporary distraction, an illusion that we are on a path to satisfaction. "I'm getting closer to figuring this out!". The truth is that we don't have to have the answers to realize peace. We just have to want it, and let go trying to attain it through fixing things, through finding answers to our problems, to being told what to do, or being told what to believe or think. "Just tell me the answers so I can know peace!", is the sure way to never have it.

What we find is that in simply letting go of seeking peace in this way, and simply falling backwards into the arms of Peace itself, we accept that Peace, and it is ours. Then the questions we thought we needed to know, are no longer even factors at all. They were simply things we thought we would find that elusive peace through determining and figuring out. And one we know Peace, those questions become non-questions. They never were all that valid to begin with, or they were certainly not the towering monoliths we imaged them to be in our lives.

Most people live life like this, trying to figure it out, and it is a natural temptation of all of us. But it seems the fundamentalist in particular is perhaps more deeply troubled in life, seeking Answers with a capital A with which they will be able to set aside the doubts that trouble them, or perhaps to deeply bury the person they loathe in themselves behind an impenetrable mask of Truth! with a captial T. "It is God who sanctifies me!", not really truly coming to knowing self-forgiveness and self-acceptance through God. It is all deliberately outside themselves by a force that "covers" their sins, rather than them accepting them as presenting themselves as they are to God, and accepting themselves as God sees them. They may have had a moment of "salvation", or a taste of Freedom from this, but then habits take over after the fact and fall back into the mode they had previously and distort that peak-experience into validation of their habitual dysfunctional ways. It's all an avoidance of letting go.

The ability to hold the tough questions and live in that liminal space is what spirituality is all about. Instead of "simply loving" the unlovable, the outcast, the sinner, the untouchable, they seek to provide "pat answers" to them, telling them how e-e-e-e-e-e-e-vi-i-i-i-i-l they are, and how they're gonna fry in hell if they don't "accept JAY-zus." Jesus never said, "Believe these particular things about me." Jesus said, "Do what I do." Which is loving those most especially in need of love.
It's in the example of how he lived that is "the way". That's why as you say the path of self-emptying love, one that seeks non-clinging, is the path he taught. It's not a new set of rules to follow, but a mind, a mode of conscious love that allows God to live in us.

It's a hard lesson to learn to not-seek for what we think we want, to live in a perpetual 'open-hand' state, as I'll call it. We learn to have a seeking-mind in how culture and society trains us. But the spiritual path is the exact opposite. If you want God, stop looking and simply get out of the way. If you wish peace, quit looking for it and simply accept it. If you wish love, offer it to all without expectation. All of it is walking backwards. It seems unnatural to the fleshly mind, the mind that seeks Answers to have and to hold steadfast and true! That is religion in the hands of the carnal mind. But the spiritual mind releases itself fully into God, for the sake of God and not our own. In laying down our life, we find Life.

And you want to know how I learned all this? Not from reading, but through the lessons of the soul learning in Spirit through my practice of meditation. All of this is in scripture, but it was not seen or recognized while approaching it seeking Answers from it. These are all my own understanding through my own practice, and it is a continuing, and evolving lesson. Hard sometimes to integrate, to be sure because of the habitual mind, but Truth, nonetheless. Each person has to learn this themselves from within. It's not something you can realize simply "believing" it. It's an understanding that has to occur beginning within the heart, not the head.
 
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InChrist

Free4ever
The bible is also clear that our natural state is to be alive as the imago dei.

Yes, and because God desires us to live in His image therefore the necessity of repentance from our sins and fallen nature for a restored image of God and new life through Christ now.


What is it that we're supposed to believe about Jesus? Irenaeus (a student of the beloved John through Polycarp) speaks of creation coming out of the very "substance" of God. Science now tells us that all matter is constructed of the same elements found in the Big Bang. The matter of life comes directly from the womb of God's Being. Irenaeus saw humanity as coming from God's Heart, and the need for us to recognize that fact. He speaks of Christ as "recapitulating" creation -- IOW, Christ brings into focus the essence of what was previously said in creation but has been forgotten or obscured. He says that Christ recapitulates the "primal." Christ reconnects us to the first and most primal energies within creation and the human form. Christ comes to reunite us to the Heart of God.


Could you please refer me to the quotes of Irenaeus where he says , “creation coming out of the very "substance" of God”, “humanity as coming from God's Heart”, “ that Christ recapitulates the "primal." “Christ reconnects us to the first and most primal energies within creation and the human form“, “Christ comes to reunite us to the Heart of God”. The wording and expressions sound very unlike the quotes and ideas I’ve read concerning his thoughts/doctrines on recapitulation.

I think the Bible speaks plainly enough that we are to believe, not about Jesus Christ, but IN Jesus, that He is the Savior, the promised One who paid for and forgives our sins, offering reconciliation and eternal life with the Father.


To put it another way, Christ comes to lead us into our inheritance which, as Paul says according to Acts, is to know that we are "God's offspring'.

Yes, Paul says we are God’s offspring while he also states in the passage in Acts that God... “now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”(Acts 17:30-31) and he shares the words of Jesus saying ... that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.(Acts 26;18). Paul also clarifies exactly who receive the inheritance and through Whom it is received (Ehp. 1:11; 1:14;1;18; 5:5; Col. 1:12; 3:24)



Indeed it is! But not in the way you and most fundamentalists imagine. "Becoming a Christian" isn't "the narrow way." The narrow way of life is the way of love. Because Jesus' way is the way of love, Jesus' truth is the truth of love, and Jesus' life is the life of love. Anyone ... anyone who lives the way, truth and life of love follows that narrow way -- no matter who or what they 'believe in' as a religious system.


I think you have departed from the plain meaning of the scriptures and are twisting Jesus’ words to suit your own postmodern, emergent views. He said plainly, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through ME.” According to His words anyone is welcome to come to Him as THE Savior, but the way is narrow through Him alone. It’s not about living a certain way or a religious system.



The way of the Roman world (in which Paul was writing) was a way of domination, inhumanity, and inequity -- a way the disregarded peoples' sovereignty and that ravaged the earth's resources. But Christ comes, not to separate us from creation, but to call us into harmony with the Heart of the universe.

Love doesn't insist on retribution. Nor does love require "payment." Jesus died because of human sin. The greatest love God demonstrated was to send Jesus to say "creation" and "life" to us again.

What's either "good" or "news" about the belief that (as the Westminster confession says) we are "opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil," or about the belief that our deepest energies come from a sinful place? What's so "gospel" about undermining our sense of self? The "gospel" to which many fundamentalists adhere is such a gospel, and that the only way to escape eternal destruction is to "believe that Jesus died to save us from our sinful nature."


I don’t know why you include a reference to the Westminster Confession, I don’t care for confessions myself since they are written by men, unlike the original biblical scriptures which are God-breathed and written by chosen individuals who were inspired by God to write His word. I don’t know where you get the idea that Jesus came to call us into harmony with the heart of the universe or say “creation and life to us again” (actually, I do), but it is not from the scriptures which repeatedly testify that He came as the Savior of the world, to save us from our sin and bring reconciliation with God through His blood shed on the cross.



So you have no hope in those whom God created to be the queens and kings of creation? You have no hope in the image of God to be the image of God? Then you also mistrust the relationships in the midst of which God is found. How very sad. I absolutely refuse to be part of any Christianity that insists on being at such odds with the deepest yearnings of the human soul.

Jesus does that, but he does it in conjunction with humanity.


Your reference to kings and queens reminds me of Mormonism. I just remember hearing it when I went to the temple, way back before I knew Jesus. If we are kings and queens over creation we have certainly displayed blatant abuse of creation, and understandably since we have a history of serving the destroyer rather than the Creator. Like I said my hope is in the power of Jesus Christ alone, not fallen humans whose image of God is marred by sin. Obviously He brings redemption in conjunction with those of humanity who place their faith in Him and become new creations in Christ.
 
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Yoshua

Well-Known Member
You completely missed the point of the semi-fictitiousness story I made up. It was to point out the mentality of believing hard in one thing, becoming disillusioned for whatever reason, and then simply switching that mentality to another belief, moving from a New Age fanatic, to a fundamentalist Christian fanatic. The problem is not the belief systems, but the fanatic practicing them. It's like the old saying, "You can take the boy out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the boy." Whether he's New Age or Christian, or Buddhist, or Hindu, the dude is still the same person.
Hi Windwalker,

Sorry for both of you with Sojourner, I 'm just very busy and haven't replied earlier. I can't catch up with your fast response on this thread. Here is my answer:

Then, what is the relevance of Jesus coming if they are still the same person? Physically, they are still the same but spiritually they are not the same especially—if they are truly committed and submitted to Christ.

2 Cor. 5:17
17. Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

John 3:3
3. Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
The truth is relative to the person who believe it. My friend, like you, was so certain of his beliefs as a Christian, now he was equally certain he had the truth as an atheist. He had as much, if not far better evidence of "being right" as an Atheist as he did as a Christian, but missed the point - as do you. My analogy went sailing straight over your head.
You say “The truth is relative to the person who believe it.” I believed it is wrong. Then it contradicts with the statement at John 14 6. Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me."

Who is the truth now?
There are various reason why your Christian friend becomes an Atheist. As I said before, one of it can be the reason.
I see you're practicing your daily mantra chant again. ;) We've already addressed this. Vain repetitions of your "sola-scriptura mantra" will not change the fact of the blatant errors of your reasoning.

See what I mean here. You blame it to the sola scriptura, then you used Scriptures—as needed. There is no blatant error in my reasoning. Do you believe that Jesus stated , "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me" since 2,000 years ago?o_O

Thanks
 
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