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What is Contemplative Christianity?

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
But God has reached us through Jesus, so...if Jesus is within us, what better place to look for him, in order to reach back to God?
Hi Sojourner,

I believed that the Bible told us to :
1.) Believe
2.) Seek His Kingdom
3.) Obey
4.) Repent
5.) Trust
6.) Commit
7.) Receive/accept
James 4:8
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.....

Matt.11:28
28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

You missed the point entirely. Let's use another example. When the bible says that "Aaron struck the rock," even though it's not explicit as to what body movements were involved in the act of striking, we can infer that 1) his fingers were gripping the rod, and 2) his arm was raised and lowered. Similarly, when the bible says to "be quiet" or "still," we can infer that that act includes deep breathing and quieting our thoughts.
Ok. I got it. But take a look at the whole Chapter 46:

46 God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble.
2 Therefore will we not fear, though the earth do change, And though the mountains be shaken into the heart of the seas;
3 Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, Though the mountains tremble with the swelling thereof. Selah
4 There is a river, the streams whereof make glad the city of God, The holy place of the tabernacles of the Most High.
5 God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God will help her, and that right early.
6 The nations raged, the kingdoms were moved: He uttered his voice, the earth melted.
7 Jehovah of hosts is with us; The God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah
8 Come, behold the works of Jehovah, What desolations he hath made in the earth.
9 He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; He breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; He burneth the chariots in the fire.
10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.
11 Jehovah of hosts is with us; The God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah

God is telling us here He is the top of all, the authority/power, and the strength in time of trouble. Anything
that happened is under His control because we must know that He is God (v.10). There is no really a hint or exertion of quieting the mind on that short phrase. That is the real context of this chapter. The "renewing of mind" for Paul may seemed nearer if you may connect it with quieting the mind, but still, they project in different context.
By the way, how did you do it? Is it going to a place, and close your eyes, and pray, or you practice breathe prayer, centering prayer?

Yes he is. Jesus was Fully. Human. Just as we are. It's biblical.
No, I mean not particularly in the form of human, but as a Messiah, Saviour, and Son of God.

No, it's not. The bible is the collected, written Tradition of the people of God. In other words, it's the written account of what people said Jesus said and did. It only reflects what the church says Jesus said.
Exactly. But the inspired word of God is there. We read it to know him personally, and obey what He want for us. What hinders you to believe that the Bible is not infallible and inspired Word of God?

Thanks
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
Hi Sojourner,

I believed that the Bible told us to :
1.) Believe
2.) Seek His Kingdom
3.) Obey
4.) Repent
5.) Trust
6.) Commit
7.) Receive/accept
James 4:8
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.....

Matt.11:28
28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


Ok. I got it. But take a look at the whole Chapter 46:

46 God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble.
2 Therefore will we not fear, though the earth do change, And though the mountains be shaken into the heart of the seas;
3 Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, Though the mountains tremble with the swelling thereof. Selah
4 There is a river, the streams whereof make glad the city of God, The holy place of the tabernacles of the Most High.
5 God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God will help her, and that right early.
6 The nations raged, the kingdoms were moved: He uttered his voice, the earth melted.
7 Jehovah of hosts is with us; The God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah
8 Come, behold the works of Jehovah, What desolations he hath made in the earth.
9 He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; He breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; He burneth the chariots in the fire.
10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.
11 Jehovah of hosts is with us; The God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah

God is telling us here He is the top of all, the authority/power, and the strength in time of trouble. Anything
that happened is under His control because we must know that He is God (v.10). There is no really a hint or exertion of quieting the mind on that short phrase. That is the real context of this chapter. The "renewing of mind" for Paul may seemed nearer if you may connect it with quieting the mind, but still, they project in different context.
By the way, how did you do it? Is it going to a place, and close your eyes, and pray, or you practice breathe prayer, centering prayer?


No, I mean not particularly in the form of human, but as a Messiah, Saviour, and Son of God.


Exactly. But the inspired word of God is there. We read it to know him personally, and obey what He want for us. What hinders you to believe that the Bible is not infallible and inspired Word of God?

Thanks

All those verses are of her(the subconscious mind), in the earth(brain). The inspired "mind/thoughts of God" are there.

Mountains, nations, seas, waters, rivers, are all where the kingdom, temple, and tabernacle are, within the mind. "God" will only dwell metaphysically within a renewed and whole(holy) mind. The whole(holy) mind of Christ/Christ consciousness is only achieved when husband(conscious) and wife(subconscious) are integrated into one and the ego/self is crucified at the place of the skull.

A still mind certainly destroys and murders all of the men(thoughts), women(emotions), and children(knowledge) in the tabernacle/temple of God(brain/mind). The subconscious world becomes flooded with light/energy when we enter the eastern hemisphere of the brain through meditation where the light comes from.
 

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
Hi Shia,

An early circular ichthys symbol, created by combining the Greek letters ΙΧΘΥΣ, Ephesus. ΙΧΘΥΣ (Ichthus) is an backronym/acrostic for "Ίησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ", (Iēsous Christos, Theou Yios, Sōtēr), which translates into English as "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour".(wikipedia)

During the early days of Christianity, Christians were often put to death for practicing their faith, so they worshiped in secret places. A fish painted on the outside door of a house let other Christians know that they would be safe and welcome inside. The Christian fish symbol is now often used to identify Christians and/or Christian businesses.

Thanks
Thanks :)
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
I believe my understanding of that will doubtless be different than yours. I believe everything else Jesus says will be understood differently by me than by you. So if his words are "dictations", whose understanding is the correct one? And since each is subjective, neither can be said to be absolute. So therefore, is his words interpreted by mind God's dictation, or are his words interpreted by your mind God's dictation? Or maybe this whole idea you have of Truth meaning propositional truths being dictated to us is fatally flawed?
John 18:37
"You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."
Like this one, Jesus answered Pilate that He will testify the truth, now do I need to interpret this as non-absolute truth?
The words of Jesus is easily understandable even a kid can comprehend. Who dictate the truth if not God? Who is above God to become an absolute truth? I don't think man's thinking is higher than God's thinking. Man is like sand in God's eyes, the planets are like marbles to Him. God is big and you cannot measure the vastness of His creation.

Do you have the authority to claim your understanding is absolutely what God means? Do I? I don't believe I do, but by contrast you believe you do. You believe you do because you keep saying I am wrong in my understanding because you read things differently than me. You don't allow for their to be such things as multiple perspectives holding equal, if not greater value than your own. The one dictating my friend is not God, but you. You are dictating your beliefs as if they were God dictating them. That is the core flaw in your thinking. It doesn't allow other perspectives - including God's. :)
One example again is what I'm doing as demons-slayer (as you said):D, I like that term you tagged on me.:)
Luke 10:19
I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
1John 3:2
Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

Jesus said that we have the authority over the enemy. How much more when we are tagged as God's children. Isn't it?

Eph. 6:10
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.

We have our armor as God's children, we should always wear it. That is authority.

1 John 4:4
Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

We are greater than the enemy; that would mean we have the power to demolish strongholds of the enemy.

John 16:13
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

The Holy Spirit is our bodyguard, our guidance counselor. Truly we have the full authority coming from God.
So, the dictation of truth is still the Scriptures, this is why I have my supporting scriptures. If I don't have it, we are just do reason by our own, and that is the true dictation as I see.
Thirdly, relativism does not say A should be "A + A1". It simply says A, as is, can be understood from multiple perspectives, and that no one can claim an absolute understanding of it, since all understanding is meditated through relative contexts. I am saying no one is capable of understanding A "in itself", without it passing through all the filters we have which add stuff to it. Everyone, including you is not seeing A as A. But it is A1 to you, A2 to another, A3, to another, and so forth. 1, 2, and 3 are fused with the truth of A by whoever is the one looking. And they all think they are only seeing A, not seeing their own 1, 2, or 3 they colorize it with. A1 is A to you. You don't see A1, even though that is what you are seeing. Another sees A2 and belives they are only seeing A. And that think you're "wrong", because your A (as A1) doesn't look like their A (as A2), and so you two get into a pitched battle of who is "right". :)

You want to understand me a little better, than yes, I do understand the nature of relative truth, but it doesn't stop there for me. I'll get to that in a minute. But in the above explaination, unlike you who believes he is only seeing A, when in reality it's A1, I see you seeing A1, another A2, another A3, and each calling their A "The A", or "The Truth", and then they cite Jesus saying "I am the Truth" as support for their own perspective! :) That's what you are doing, and it's what all the others who think their interpretations are somehow not interpretations and think you're wrong are doing. The difference, is I KNOW my views are interpretations right along with everyone else. So my approach knowing this about the nature of interpreted truth, is to understand these things in a different light. Absolute Truth transcends any ideas about what is truth that we have. No one can claim their understanding is Absolute. But "The Absolute" does exist. It is simply not understanding as a propositional truth that you can codify and put into doctrines and words.
Then there is reality; when there is reality, there is truth. How can you say A, when in reality is A1, it cannot be. It is like saying an oil can mix with water, but the truth is, it is not. Now, your context of relative truth as not accepting it, but you modernize it in another perspective, that oil can somehow mix with water in the future/or by technology means. This is how I see it.o_O In application to spiritual, how can the Scripture that Jesus stated will be converted into non-absolute truth? Maybe, you're thinking it is due to several interpretations made by different theologians. Yes, I accept it, but there is reality (as you mentioned), the truth, the real meaning, the core, and what we called as "standard." When Jesus said "if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell." Did Jesus really said it literally, then you may see Christian that are blinded. But the true interpretation is to resist ourselves from sinning, that is the true interpretation, not coming from me but from the Bible. That is reality and the truth.

And that is what I hear when Jesus says "I am the Truth, the Way, and the Life". His words guide you, not dictate to you, to realize Truth in you, which is not something that can be grasped or comprehended, but rather is Foundational Ground of Spirit from which all relative truths unfold, imperfect, yet reflecting the Absolute within them. It is Light itself, not "a light". This is a very different understanding of the nature of the Truth that Jesus teaches than they way are you looking to see it as a set of teachings as "Absolute", which in order to believe as such, you must ignore the fact that everyone interprets through their relative filters everything they perceive and experience. This is not just a change in ideas or beliefs I am talking about here, but an entire shift in how we understanding the nature of truths and our approach to the spiritual itself.
Yes the words guide me, and I accept the truth. If you would'nt like to be dictated by Jesus, then you have an excuse that you did not follow Him. Windwalker, it is submission. This is the term that I would like to say to you. We don't like to be dictated by our own boss, because we have our rights; but because you are employed, and they compensated you, therefore you should submit to your superior. For God, we could not do the same thing; the first thing that Jesus is looking to His disciples is their heart and commitment to follow Him. That is full submission. The offer of salvation to come to Him is not forced, but waiting his people to come to Him.:)

It is finding Truth in Christ in ourselves, or put another way, find the Truth in ourselves through Christ or Spirit, or God, etc. It is an awakening of the Christ in you, and then as it manifests in the world, it will be seen, heard, and expressed in many words, many forms, many understandings. God is not a single idea you can lay claim to. Is the whole a creation a single bird and a single song?
Ohh. I remember something, and it flashback to me. I used to join a seminar how to be prosperous in everything a long time ago. I attended and discovered that the speaker was a mind master. He taught us to use the power of our minds to be prosperous. Truly it happened to him, it is our choice if we did not follow him. Lately, I discovered that this is a "new thought" seminar. To be dependent with our mind as the tool of magical success. This is the same as you describe as finding the truth in ourselves, seeking what your mind can achieve, and what is around you has to offer. I choose to use the statement "Christ is the truth by the power of the Holy Spirit." I don't need to find the Truth in ourselves because there is not truth in ourselves, we cannot boast God. The Scripture clearly stated that :
1 Peter 5:5
Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
Eph. 2;8-9
8 For it is by graceyou have been saved,through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works,so that no one can boast.

How can one have an in-depth understand if they have no internal depth through which understanding may pass? No matter how much you study or read something, to the point your eye sockets are bleeding, if you have no depth of a cup in which to receive what you read, it will never be more that what you bring to it. It's like the story of the student who came to the master to learn and the master poured tea into the student's cup, but kept pouring and pouring and pouring as it ran out all over the table. The student shouts, "Stop! Can't you see my cup is already full?" The master responds, "Yes, and that is why I cannot teach you."
God's grace is sufficient for me.
2 Cor. 12:9
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
Besides the authority of a Christian that I've mentioned, there is power that is made perfect. I keep holding on to this power, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth--that is internal. ;)

If you have the Light of God, you can see the Light of God. You are too busy "being right". Your cup is already full.
Jesus said he is the Light. I believe on His Light. I don't like the other light, and I really smell them. My cup is full to counter the arrow of the enemy. :)

Again, covered multiple times by Sojourner. Do you forget these things? There was no NT when this was written, so it cannot be referring to the Bible (or the Christ as you see it), sitting on your shelf! :)
What is the problem with Paul's writing handed down to us as the Bible? there is none unless you did not believe in Paul's writing. Like what we are doing in this forum, we are typing our answers and click post reply, written and send to the recipient. Still, the message was preserved as with Paul. Nothing has change , it's the word Bible that you don't like. Let's change it as Paul's writing.;)

Yes, I can see why you're into demonology. It's fits in with paranoia. Who is saying anything about New Age in this discussion, but you? Do you eat food? So do these demonized "New Agers" you pull out at every opportunity. Is food therefore bad and you should quit eating? The illogic in this, the paranoia and irrationality is rampant.

In reality, you have far more in common with New Age than I do. What this "New Age" movement really can be boiled down can be summarized by calling it a form of "Experimental Christianity". Yes, you heard right! :) And here's why I say this. Like you, the New Age movement sees God as external to themselves. They believe in supernatural helpers, angels and spirits, as well as demons and devils. Both parallel your beliefs, while they are the opposite of mine. Instead of praying to God to make good things happen in their lives, to fix this or that, to bring about this or that supernaturally in the world, they pray to the Universe as God. It's the same practice. So, if you want to talk about New Age practice, look no further than your own! :)

Christians use all the "right words" too, but when you use them, the meaning inherent in them reflects this very different understanding than what I have. Your entire approach is different, and so how you use the words reflects that approach - even though they are the same words I use! So that I use words that New Agers have seized upon and co-opted as their own, I can say the same thing of you! You have far more in common with New Age than I do. You're modern "deliverance" approach to your religion, is frankly "experimental Christianity" as well. Is this why you demonizing them as much as you do? Because you can see so much of yourself in them? (Shadow persona).
Christ disciples also practice casting out demons. Paul reminded us to wear the armor of God. How could you break that, do you mean Paul is in paranoia? We are both in the same shoes, we aware with the arrows. Jesus reminded us about false teachings/prophets. Do you think Jesus is in paranoia? Acute anxiety or fear is not for Christian, we are told not to fear and worry for what you eat and drink. We dependent on God's provision and blessings. There is a difference with wisdom and fear. We applied wisdom than fear. All of us have fear because we have emotions. A soldier can't proceed to the battle zone without plan and awareness of the land that he will step in. We are like that soldier, a wise soldier and a prepared soldier.

The moment you become a Christian is all experiential in nature; we don't exempt ourselves by not accepting experience. The trials and temptations in life, our struggle in flesh from our corrupt body, persecutions...are all part of a Christian life like Paul had.;)

Ok, and when you see these "possessions" are you seeing the Fruit of the Spirit being manifest, or something else? I suppose, maybe you would find some saint who is glowing with the Light of God, and feel a need to cast Satan out of them because they understand God in a different light than you? No? But isn't that what you are doing in this thread? "For which of these good works do you seek to stone me?", Jesus asked.
We respect their understanding about God. But you cannot get a doctrine (copy and paste) to them because they will not accept that inspite of--they can also produce good works by their own physical effort. The fruit of the Spirit (Holy Spirit) is non-acceptable to them. This is what I mean to white and black cannot produce orange color. That is the real truth. Now, if you try to do it in different approach, that cannot be the truth of what the Bible is saying. But there is still truth in it.;)

Thanks
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I believed that the Bible told us to :
1.) Believe
2.) Seek His Kingdom
3.) Obey
4.) Repent
5.) Trust
6.) Commit
7.) Receive/accept
James 4:8
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.....

Matt.11:28
28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
You're responding with all this stuff that's just not cogent to what I posted. Why are you doing that? Can you not argue the points?
There is no really a hint or exertion of quieting the mind on that short phrase.
That's the I interpret it. You may interpret it differently, according to your biases. Fine. don't quiet your mind, if you're not ready to do that. Continue to fight demons. It's your spiritual path.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
No, I mean not particularly in the form of human, but as a Messiah, Saviour, and Son of God.
Doesn't matter. If you buy the Creeds, as you say you do, then you buy the theological proposition that that Messiah, Savior, and Son of God was fully human -- just as we are.
Exactly. But the inspired word of God is there.
No it's not. The Word is in the heart.
We read it to know him personally, and obey what He want for us.
Do you know your friends or your spouse personally by reading about them? Or do you know them personally by interacting with them and listening to them?
What hinders you to believe that the Bible is not infallible and inspired Word of God?
The fact that it is what it is, not what I want it to be.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe my understanding of that will doubtless be different than yours. I believe everything else Jesus says will be understood differently by me than by you. So if his words are "dictations", whose understanding is the correct one? And since each is subjective, neither can be said to be absolute. So therefore, is his words interpreted by mind God's dictation, or are his words interpreted by your mind God's dictation? Or maybe this whole idea you have of Truth meaning propositional truths being dictated to us is fatally flawed?
Agreeing with you in show of support I'll add some scriptures in context that say what you are saying, not that you need my help but to show my support.

1 John 1:7-10 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."
  • John points out that fellowship is the 1st mark of truth, just as he does in his gospel in chapter 17.
  • John points out that we walk in the light. In John's writing the light is that life which shines from the logos, which dwells among us, in us as a group as we are its tabernacle. (John 1). This is the 'Inner light' of which you speak.
  • John points out our sins, which in context are sins of ignorance and lies as well as actions. These two things are considered to be the same. If we claim we have no sin then truth is not in us.
  • John points out that if we confess our sins, then we have fellowship; but if we refuse then we make God out to be a liar. This is a clear reference to: Psalm 51:4 which paraphrased by Paul is "Let God be true and every man a liar."(Romans 3:4). By this does Paul mean we should sin purposely or that Jews are in sin? No, but that humility is required and a confession that we are all equal and less than God. That is why Christianity is Catholic in nature, because everyone is included.
  • As James the brother of John points out "If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you." (James 1:5) by which James implies that truth is something we cannot compare amongst ourselves. James is in perfect harmony with John and with Jesus on this point.

Do you have the authority to claim your understanding is absolutely what God means? Do I? I don't believe I do, but by contrast you believe you do. You believe you do because you keep saying I am wrong in my understanding because you read things differently than me. You don't allow for their to be such things as multiple perspectives holding equal, if not greater value than your own. The one dictating my friend is not God, but you. You are dictating your beliefs as if they were God dictating them. That is the core flaw in your thinking. It doesn't allow other perspectives - including God's. :)
Your point is substantially upheld not only by James and John, but primarily by Jesus and also originally by Moses. The light on Moses face was too bright for people to look at, and he had to hide it. The LORD was never visible directly and only spoke directly to Moses. The apostle, Paul, explains that the veil is lifted in Christ, which is pretty much what James and John have said, that each person in Christ may now see beyond that veil, but not if they make themselves out to be the light, not if they call God a liar. Jesus says (John 3) that the spirit is like wind going wherever. Who can tell where it is at any given moment? His speech alludes to the mysterious passage in 1 Kings 22 wen the false prophet asked "Which way did the spirit from the LORD go when he went from me to speak to you?" Jesus answers his question and at the same time answers our questions about how we should judge the doctrines of our fellow disciples. Jesus, continuing his discourse in John 3 declares that the verdict is that those who fellowship in the light are different from those who want to be in the dark. In context of Jesus statements and John's (though most of it is by John's pen) and Jame's and in context of Moses and Paul, its clear very clear that those who fellowship in the light have shaken off any claim to be themselves a standard of truth or its interpreter for others.

Hi Windwalker,

Jesus just said I am the way, the truth and the life. Do you believe He is the truth? Did God has authority to dictate the truth to us? If Christianity taught by Jesus Christ (the truth) is letter A, will you follow his teachings as letter A? In my perspective, it seems “relativism” principle is not solely letter A; it should be A (truth of Christ) should be followed by + A1(no absolute truth)+A2 (no absolute truth)+A3(no absolute truth)…….and not B(truth of Christ). Why do we find the truth in ourselves if Jesus said He is already the truth? Logical.

This evidentially contradicts what Jesus pronounced about the “truth.” The outcome of it will be: every person who believes that there is no Absolute Truth will contradict with Christ as saying “I am the truth” because He find the truth by himself (ourselves) and not finding the truth in Christ.

Is it finding the truth in CHRIST or finding truth in OURSELVES?o_O
It is finding Truth in Christ in ourselves, or put another way, find the Truth in ourselves through Christ or Spirit, or God, etc. It is an awakening of the Christ in you, and then as it manifests in the world, it will be seen, heard, and expressed in many words, many forms, many understandings. God is not a single idea you can lay claim to. Is the whole a creation a single bird and a single song?
Logos.

How can one have an in-depth understand if they have no internal depth through which understanding may pass? No matter how much you study or read something, to the point your eye sockets are bleeding, if you have no depth of a cup in which to receive what you read, it will never be more that what you bring to it. It's like the story of the student who came to the master to learn and the master poured tea into the student's cup, but kept pouring and pouring and pouring as it ran out all over the table. The student shouts, "Stop! Can't you see my cup is already full?" The master responds, "Yes, and that is why I cannot teach you."
While I am not certain that current Christian tradition always agrees with Christ, I do agree that study is important. I don't believe that there is any 'Chain' of apostleship or that one bishop has more authority than another or that it should be the case. I definitely don't agree with paid pastors in charge of their own little churches, so what do I agree with? I agree with your point about depth and add mention the nature of the Kingdom as described in Jesus parable of the sower. Its a tiny seed that grows on itself and needs only water, soil and light. Its not furniture that has to be assembled properly or a carving. It just appears, so all of the who-hah about discipleship programs and methods and protocols...all of that is just people exerting themselves and trying to take credit for something that happens without themselves. I agree that Christians who are not in fellowship with (won't put up with) others cannot claim to be living in truth, but that nobody should claim to interpret truth for another.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
John 18:37
"You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."
Like this one, Jesus answered Pilate that He will testify the truth, now do I need to interpret this as non-absolute truth?
It is interesting to me reading your responses how that what I explain in clear and articulate detail escapes you. It is what I said at the outset, that where you are at, you are currently incapable of understanding different ways of thinking. Anything that seems 'foreign' to how you see and perceive the world, and how you interpret everything through that perception, that mode of thought, is seen by you are "wrong", a "deception", "of the devil", etc, etc, etc. All of this is a reflection of how you think and perceive, not a reflection of reality as a whole.

I do not accept your reality as God's view of reality. And nor do I accept mine as God's view of reality either. This is something you cannot grasp yet. I does not compute, does not fit into the triangles and squares of reality that you model it as, and you therefore see it as a foreign body and expel it. If anything from the Bible that would be some help to anyone in such a state of mind, it is that of humility. You most certainly do not show that to your brother in judging them wrong and yourself right.

From my perspective, I see a child who is trying to piece together a view of reality for himself seizing upon scripture to try to build it nice and tight and firm for himself, and is reacting to anyone who has a different view than him as a threat to this tower he has built, reinforcing and justifying himself by becoming a self-proclaimed holy crusader slaying others in the name of his God. It's sad in so many ways.

So to your point above about Jesus as a Dictator, I don't accept that image of Christ. One wonders if you grew up under or near those who lived under dictatorships? The image of Christ I hear from scripture is that of the Good Shepherd. "My sheep hear my voice, and they follow me". That's a very different image that one laying down the law with the power of state to execute those who do not comply with his authoritarian rule. Your image of Christ is that, and not one of the Good Shepherd. It is evident in everything you say in this post, clearly. And in looking back at everything else it is clear as well. This is a major watershed point in our thinking and in how either of envision God.

Not only do I not see Christ as Dictator in scripture, my very experiences of God says something completely different than that. There is nothing but Grace. It is a pull from Spirit, through Grace, towards Truth itself. It is not a push down from a Dictator imposing views and beliefs on others. Your view of Christ and God is the latter; a push down, or a ram down from above imposing ideas and beliefs and views and actions on others. My experiences, and my understanding from scripture, speaks in terms of hearing the voice of God gently calling, never imposing, but encouraging and supporting one to become who we are meant to be in Christ.

Those who choose to go that path are met with the support of Spirit, abundantly. It is my experience through meditation practices, that Spirit never imposes itself upon you, ever. To use a metaphor, it simply waits for you to be done doing whatever it is you are doing to distract yourself, to avoid Him. But when you realize what you are doing, perhaps through a gentle nudge, as it were, and you turn your gaze that direction, the response is an overwhelming flood of Love and Power and Light flooding your soul, overwhelming at time, to the point you have to hold back to what you can handle. :) Seriously, it is like this all the time. That is the nature of Spirit. It is always present, but never imposing, never dictating, never demanding, never threatening, never punishing. It is us who punish ourselves, through our culturally and self-imposed guilt and shame.

Likewise if you choose to go it your own way, trying to find God by becoming uber religious and zealous like Saul, persecuting others who find God a different way than you, seeking to correct their doctrines and beliefs, etc, you are allowed to go that course up to the point the urge of Spirit outweighs the self-seeking through religious zealotry, like Saul, and you open that door to a better way. And like in my experiences, the second you let down the shields of ego, ones we hold up with the name "religion" emblazoned upon them to hide our own self-reflection from ourselves, we are met with an overwhelming response of the acceptance of God. At such a state, at such a moment, we no longer see others as "the enemy of God" as we judged them ourselves - as you are doing to us, but we become utterly humbled before that Light, and see others as God see them, with Grace and Love, and not with our own judgements of what we think God's law is for others. I see a striking comparison here.

The words of Jesus is easily understandable even a kid can comprehend.
And an adult with more experience understandings quite differently, in far more nuanced ways than a kid does. This is underscoring my point again.

Who dictate the truth if not God?
You will, apparently.

Who is above God to become an absolute truth?
Never once I have said "an absolute truth". I only and ever say "the Absolute", or "Truth", etc. It is unqualifiable. There is not truth that our minds can comprehend that anyone can claim as "an absolute". Everything our mind understands is filtered through relative contexts. It is never freed from that. This is something you fail to understand and continue to simply repeat your beliefs that do not address this fact.

I don't think man's thinking is higher than God's thinking.
With this I agree. However, you seem to believe it is because you keep trying to tell as your thoughts as if they were God's. Remember, YOU interpret scripture, and YOU are speaking your thoughts as they come to you. I don't hear God saying what you say he is. So you should take your advise and not do that anymore.

Man is like sand in God's eyes, the planets are like marbles to Him. God is big and you cannot measure the vastness of His creation.
"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care."

Out of curiosity since you speaking of God in terms of dimensions, do you believe God is outside of creation, within creation, or both?

One example again is what I'm doing as demons-slayer (as you said):D, I like that term you tagged on me.:)
Well, you're actually not casting out demons. You're persecuting others who believe differently than you, calling them demons in the same way the Pharisees said Jesus had a demon because his teachings threatened theirs in their eyes. If you were actually taking the injunction to, "drive out demons," you would be doing so by practicing modern psychology, not by being a witch-doctor. Although, as I said before, even witch-doctors have an effect on others through the power of suggestion. It's all means and ways to the subconscious mind.

I'm just suggesting if you truly want to help others who have sickness of the mind or body, then seek a modern education and learn the arts of healing, rather than using this business of "demon-slaying" to "rebuke" those who don't believe like you do. That's not about healing. That's about your ego. That's about being right. That's about self-justification.

Then there is reality; when there is reality, there is truth. How can you say A, when in reality is A1, it cannot be. It is like saying an oil can mix with water, but the truth is, it is not. Now, your context of relative truth as not accepting it, but you modernize it in another perspective, that oil can somehow mix with water in the future/or by technology means. This is how I see it.o_O In application to spiritual, how can the Scripture that Jesus stated will be converted into non-absolute truth? Maybe, you're thinking it is due to several interpretations made by different theologians. Yes, I accept it, but there is reality (as you mentioned), the truth, the real meaning, the core, and what we called as "standard." When Jesus said "if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell." Did Jesus really said it literally, then you may see Christian that are blinded. But the true interpretation is to resist ourselves from sinning, that is the true interpretation, not coming from me but from the Bible. That is reality and the truth.
You didn't follow a thing I said. Rather than me spend time finding a new way to open your mind to this understanding, I suggest you go back and spend more time reading and processing what I wrote. It's reaching a point where it may prove futile to continue attempt to explain when you seem incapable of understanding these very basic concepts of the nature of relative and absolute truth. I may try a different approach later, but I tend to see it more for the benefit of others who can at least somewhat grasp this basic understanding.

Yes the words guide me, and I accept the truth. If you would'nt like to be dictated by Jesus, then you have an excuse that you did not follow Him. Windwalker, it is submission.
My understanding is different than yours what submission to the will of God means. I know, I know, I'm not believing God because I think differently than you. :)

This is the term that I would like to say to you. We don't like to be dictated by our own boss, because we have our rights; but because you are employed, and they compensated you, therefore you should submit to your superior. For God, we could not do the same thing; the first thing that Jesus is looking to His disciples is their heart and commitment to follow Him. That is full submission. The offer of salvation to come to Him is not forced, but waiting his people to come to Him.:)
Well, yes it is forced if you think of God they way you do. It's like putting a gun to someone's head and saying, "You have a freewill choice here to love me and obey me, or to not. I'm not forcing you here, but do understand if I put a bullet in your head it's your choice to die." A boss can fire you from your job. But God is not our employer. He is our "Heavenly Father", "Abba" or "Daddy" as Jesus called Him. That is a love relationship, not an employment contract! :) I do not see my boss as my father. My father would never disown me. Would yours you?

I find it very revealing, very telling how you see God as 1) Dictator, 2) Employer. I'll continue to point these out as they emerge from what you say in how you envision God. AGAIN, these images of God you hold, that you begin with, taints everything you read in scripture through that lens. It is what you mind is allowing you to, colorizing it to fit within that framework. You simply do not see this yet. To you, your mind reflects reality itself. But "God's thoughts are higher than you own". I suggest you maybe do what we do, and set aside what we "think" about God and let God speak. :)

Like a drip of water on a hard stone, eventually the repetition wears a groove in it.

Ohh. I remember something, and it flashback to me. I used to join a seminar how to be prosperous in everything a long time ago. I attended and discovered that the speaker was a mind master. He taught us to use the power of our minds to be prosperous. Truly it happened to him, it is our choice if we did not follow him. Lately, I discovered that this is a "new thought" seminar. To be dependent with our mind as the tool of magical success. This is the same as you describe as finding the truth in ourselves, seeking what your mind can achieve, and what is around you has to offer.
And once again, the Strawman argument comes out. No one in this discussion believes or teaches that contemplative practice is us trying to do this through our own power of the mind. It is the exact opposite of what lies you continue to make us to be saying and engaging in. In lieu of an actual argument, make one up and argue with that! Does this unbiblical practice ever end with you?

What you are saying is bearing false witness against us. I've pointed this out before, but you continue to persist in this. This is a lie. We have addressed it countless times, you ignore what is said the truth of it is, and continue to say what it is not to us. I don't see resorting to lies to doing the work of God, do you? Since you are a fan of demonology, who is the Father of Lies in that hierarchy, and whose lead are you following? Be careful in your casting stones at others... "for with what judgement you judge, it will be meeted back to you".

Now, address what we actually say, and actually practice, rather than continuing to state falsehoods like this. The fact you are not arguing with us, show it is not us you oppose, but an imagined enemy of your own mind, your own demon, as it were. It's not us. End of story.

I'll leave it at this, as it's all just repeating the same things.....
 
This takes this discussion to a different level, to be sure for me to begin to unpack what is otherwise easy for me to say. The easy answer is Jesus is speaking as the Christ, the divine Logos. The Logos is the revealer, the manifestor of God. It is the divine, the Logos which is the Way to the Father. The true worshippers worship in Spirit and in Truth is saying the same thing. You cannot come to the Father but through Spirit, which is that which proceeds from the Father and the Son. You can't climb in another way, through religious beliefs and practices, through rules and doctrines, but through Spirit.

So when Jesus speaks as the Divine Logos, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life", that is correct. But it does not mean convert to a religion in his name. It means open yourself to Spirit. It is only through that Gate, that Door, that you enter into the Divine being. All of this is in the Bible. Anyone who so opens themselves to that Manifestation of God (Logos), and through that, in Spirit, pass into God, are the Sons and Daughters of God. "For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." To me, it is better to call Jesus brother than Lord.

Now to really throw a zinger in here that is sure to rattle some minds.... :) The Christian mystic Meister Eckhart wrote something in the 14th century, which when I read a little while back my first time, lept off the page and struck me as very, very true from my own experiences, and it goes to what I just wrote a moment ago that touches upon this inheritance of Sons and Jesus as brother.

The hearing of God’s Word requires complete self-surrender. He who hears and that which is heard are identical constituents of the eternal Word. What the eternal Father teaches is his own Being, Nature, and Godhead – which he is always revealing through his only begotten Son. He teaches that we are to be identical with him.

To deny one’s self is to be the only begotten Son of God and one who does so has for himself all the properties of that Son. All God’s acts are performed and his teachings conveyed through the Son, to the point that we should be his only begotten Son. And when this is accomplished in God’s sight, he is so fond of us and so fervent that he acts as if his divine Being might be shattered and he himself annihilated if the whole foundations of his Godhead were not revealed to us, together with his nature and being. God makes haste to do this, so that it may be ours as it is his. It is here that God finds joy and rapture in fulfillment and the person who is thus within God’s knowing and love becomes just what God himself is.
It is not a matter of "I believe", but one of receiving, being taught as it were by God's own being itself. This is not something you read about at comprehend, but apprehend with your being in God. So when Jesus says, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life", this too is something we, if we are realized in the manner in which we are so much God's, can ourselves say. To be "like Christ", means just that very thing. "Christ in you". "YOU are the light of the world". You too when you are so consumed in God proclaim with Jesus, as brother, as sister, "I and my Father are One".

Now.... let the stoning begin. :)

First of all, As we know, God spoke the universe into place. Do you know how? Do I know how? No, we do not, but we know that the Spirit was at work, so we have 2 options.

1. Dismiss it as truth because we cannot humanly understand it
2. Accept by faith and the accuracy of the texts that Gods spoken voice is powerful and beyond human comprehension.

The "vehicle" God used to speak to men has changed, but the message has remained consistent.

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

God divinely used faithful men to document his message to us and for us. Just as God speaking the universe into existence has no reasonable, explainable, understandable concepts, we believe it because of faith AND the accuracy of the prophesies recorded. The bible doesn't just say "Christ died" Christ rose" it says "according to the scriptures"

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

What gives Gods word credibility and authority TODAY in the here and now is that His words have been fulfilled. I wouldn't believe simply by blind faith, that would be ignorance. I believe because He has proved beyond a reasonable doubt through the prophecies that He is indeed God and His words were divinely given through the Holy Spirit to men to write so that we might have a "more sure word" than the audible voice of God.

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

They heard Gods audible voice, yet verse 19 says "we have a more sure word"......"whereunto ye do well that ye take heed".
What is more sure word than the audible voice of God? And what are we to be heeding to?

Just as in the beginning, God spoke and the Spirit moved, so it is with the word of God in ANY form, be it audible or written, the Spirit moves. Before the NT was recorded, Jesus was validated through signs and wonders and miracles done during His earthy ministry. He never asked men to believe without proof of His claims. We hold the historical documentations inspired by God Himself in our hands (something the disciples would have done anything to have I'm sure), yet we diminish their authority because we don't like what it says.

I remember the invisible ink pads, the ones that had the "decoder". The words written were invisible until you applied the decoder pen and BAM....the invisible message appears.

God is the invisible ink, the Holy Spirit is the decoder pen and the pad is the bible which contains the truth....I am simply the the recipient of all of which I don't deserve.

1 Corinthians 2.

Much of what is rejected is rejected because of well meaning people acting and speaking outside of the Holy Spirit of God. It's lifeless and rigidness reeks in the nostrils of God, so, of course it is of no effect. But simply because people have placed their trust in a 15 second redemption prayer and cut others to pieces with their new sword does not nullify prayer nor the sword for me personally. I had to move past the exteriors (not trash them) but move past them to see that the implementations were not intended to be what I constantly saw. The sword was not designed to cut others, it was designed to cut through my own self righteousness.

I do understand you, possibly too much for my own comfortability. I was at the threshold of "letting go", and God saved my soul. This is problematic for you because you believe I stopped short of the "divine", I myself believe I stopped short of a strong delusion. We all must decide.
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
I very much sense you trying to find something you can latch onto to look up in your handy 'book of apologetics' to counter. I hate having to dissect all that garbage from others, so I prefer for you to just hear what I am saying and deal with the points, rather than attempting to categorize where I fit in. In reality, I fit in all over the place. You can't box me into a single camp. My 'camp" integrates multiple understandings. If you note under my avatar and name on the side of the screen here, it says "Integral Aperspectival". When you are able to unpack what that means, then we can begin to talk specifics, otherwise you'll just be clutching at this or at that. Integral, is a good word. Aperspectival is a good word. The two together mean something.

If you identify me as a "Relativist", that creates misconception. If you identify me as a Modernist, that creates misconceptions. If you identify me as a Catholic, that creates misconceptions, an Anglican, an independent, a whatever label you use, will create misconceptions. I don't mind Integralist, as that leaves it open and allows taking in of multiple perspectives, holding all views as useful, or not so useful towards the whole. I take a holistic approach, which includes not just relative truths, but the Absolute itself. And the latter, is where in fact mystical practices such as meditation become a necessity. It would take far more explaining for you to begin to understand anything of this in order for you to try to categorize me than I have time for.

Statement of Faith? Sure: Through Faith, we are made Whole. Now, what that means to you, and what that means to me will likely be light-years of difference in understanding.
Ya, as I checked with your beliefs, you are a post-modernist (if I'm right). What true to me is not true to you. But one thing that comes in my mind, how will you reconcile the true fact/right things to you, like where are you born, and you study at college A for 4 years (for example)? Is it an absolute truth to you or not? What if somebody tell me that you did not study at college A but College B for 4 years? who will be the right?

Exactly correct. If you point to a thing and you name it, you are doing so from a relative position. You are interpreting it. That interpretation is what is not Absolute. You are ignoring that you are perceiving something from a relative position. I'll put it this way, I may experience the Absolute, and I do, but anything I may say about it is not absolute. What I say is filtered through my mind and language, and culture, and points of view, etc. There's nothing wrong with this of course, as I say, because the words, along with the experience, reflect that Truth, even though the words themselves are not "the Truth". The Absolute may be seen and experienced through the relative.

But to mistake the relative as the Absolute, is frankly, idolatry. When someone claims their beliefs are "The Truth!", this is idolatry, taking their limited, relative points of view and making them God. Bibliolatry, for instance, is quite well named! Christ, is not the Bible. A relative point of view reading and interpreting scripture, is not the Christ.
Well explained. Therefore, the Absolute is Jesus Christ and His teachings, the follower obeyed His teachings. The follower are not allowed to interpret Christ's teachings nor preach/teach. So, there will be no right and wrong because there are beliefs/faith that are absolute, and what we are practicing to become holy is just relative. When a person kill someone, could his killing be a relative, and not absolute?

Well, that's a good and valid question. As I said, hacks with Bibles spouting they have The Truth!, are not good guides. That eliminates a whole lot of these preachers out there preaching The Truth!, as it were. A good spiritual guide would be one who first - has experience, knowledge of God through experience with God, as opposed to experience with hermeneutics and Bible colleges. :) There's a lot of charlatans out there, "gurus" as it were driving fancy cars, stroking their egos, starting churches on their particular flavor of interpreting the Bible, handling snakes, casting out demons, and so forth to distinguish themselves from the others churches.
Well, I'm aware of that and know cult churches. So no Bible college, biblical standard of interpretation, no pastors and let us wait for some experience that may come, then unite together. Is this what you mean?

It comes down to this. First, you have to know what that inner voice is telling you. In order to do that, you have to come to know that. In order to come to know that you have to learn how to listen to your heart. In order to learn how to listen, you have to be quite and let it speak to you. That's first. Secondly, from knowing that small seed of Light speaking to you, persistently, yet with Grace and Wisdom, you look for those who bear the Fruit of the Spirit. It's not those who proclaim Truth!, and show you all the Bible verses to support it. No, not at all. Any hack with a Bible can do that. But you look at what Light shines through them in their heart, their attitudes to themselves and others, the actions, not actions that do something "because the Bible tells them to", but because their own Heart compels them to out of that Light itself. In other words, genuine, true from the heart fruit.

By their fruits you shall know them. It's not by their "support in the Bible" for their doctrinal beliefs that you know them. It's not even in them "acting" like it says to in the Bible, "conforming their actions to external laws and rules", but in being God in the world, through Truth itself. There is much to learn on the spiritual path, but it is the easiest path in the world when we learn to simply allow. The spiritual path is about being, not believing doctrines. It is about becoming Christ. And that alone is what a Christian is. And anyone who does so, is. Regardless of how they self-identify, or the relative points of view they believe.
That seemed a good enticing non-doctrinal path to righteousness. It also seems that we cannot become like Christ so no one can boast. By the way, I wonder why Jesus need to suffer on the cross, and Paul suffered persecution by propagating the gospel if everyone can find his spiritual path with no doctrines at all?
1 Tim.4:16
16. Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things; for as you do this you will insure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

John 5:81
51. "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."

It's like we are telling (both of them) to shut up because we have our teachings. It seems contradicting?:rolleyes:

While you are saying what I practice in my path to God is opening me to the deceptions of Satan, that is demonic, and so forth, calling the Light of God that I experience Satan, and so forth. I don't consider that an exchange of different points of view. I consider that offensive and ignorant, and all your statements about what we believe are incorrect and you ignore the responses we offer. What is that, exactly? Who is that about?
We are on the same boat of situation. You know spiritual things that leads you to the path of righteousness by multi-perspective. Mine is not just knowing things straight from the Word. There are things that you did not know, and it is by discerning through the Spirit of Truth. Truth is love. I may also be offended with the comment that throws upon me here in this thread, and from the other threads. I don't blame them and myself, this is what I choose, the General Debate Section. We have a lot of option here, this is what makes Rf forum unique. Let's enjoy it. A fine and gentle answer could be given to cool them off.;):)
 
1 Corinthians 2.

Much of what is rejected is rejected because of well meaning people acting and speaking outside of the Holy Spirit of God. It's lifeless and rigidness reeks in the nostrils of God, so, of course it is of no effect. But simply because people have placed their trust in a 15 second redemption prayer and cut others to pieces with their new sword does not nullify prayer nor the sword for me personally. I had to move past the exteriors (not trash them) but move past them to see that the implementations were not intended to be what I constantly saw. The sword was not designed to cut others, it was designed to cut through my own self righteousness.

I do understand you, possibly too much for my own comfortability. I was at the threshold of "letting go", and God saved my soul. This is problematic for you because you believe I stopped short of the "divine", I myself believe I stopped short of a strong delusion. We all must decide.

Daniel 10 was louder than I wished and clearer than I could have ever imagined it to be.
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
You're responding with all this stuff that's just not cogent to what I posted. Why are you doing that? Can you not argue the points?

But God has reached us through Jesus, so...if Jesus is within us, what better place to look for him, in order to reach back to God?
Can you further clarify your question, my understanding for the "better place" is the way on how to look or seek Him to reach back to God. I answered you what to do in my understanding, those are what Im doing to reach back to God.

That's the I interpret it. You may interpret it differently, according to your biases. Fine. don't quiet your mind, if you're not ready to do that. Continue to fight demons. It's your spiritual path.
If a person becomes a follower of Christ, he is already engaging in a spiritual battle. My friend.:) If a Christian don't have battles, we better doubt about it. I don't interpret it differently, it is obviously seen that there is really no quieting of mind. Kindly answer my question to understand what is really your quieting your mind practice. I can do quiet times as meditating His word, praying without disturbance around me; no breathing technique nor centering prayer. I'm allowing the Holy Spirit to guide me during my meditation with Scriptures.

Thanks
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
But God has reached us through Jesus, so...if Jesus is within us, what better place to look for him, in order to reach back to God?
Can you further clarify your question, my understanding for the "better place" is the way on how to look or seek Him to reach back to God. I answered you what to do in my understanding, those are what Im doing to reach back to God.


If a person becomes a follower of Christ, he is already engaging in a spiritual battle. My friend.:) If a Christian don't have battles, we better doubt about it. I don't interpret it differently, it is obviously seen that there is really no quieting of mind. Kindly answer my question to understand what is really your quieting your mind practice. I can do quiet times as meditating His word, praying without disturbance around me; no breathing technique nor centering prayer. I'm allowing the Holy Spirit to guide me during my meditation with Scriptures.

Thanks

The mind and intellect can't interpret scriptures, the spirit does. Mind becomes covered and veiled by Spirit.
One cannot meditate on something they think that they know. The idea is a still, open, and clear mind, and forget everything that we think we know. If the answers eventually brought into the conscious mind through thoughts, after patience, are conflicting with what you already believe in, or are not what you want to hear, they will likely be ignored. Hence, not listening to Jesus. Requires full submission and denial of your wife(subconscious) by covering of the Spirit.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
The mind and intellect can't interpret scriptures, the spirit does. Mind becomes covered and veiled by Spirit.
One cannot meditate on something they think that they know. The idea is a still, open, and clear mind, and forget everything that we think we know. If the answers eventually brought into the conscious mind through thoughts, after patience, are conflicting with what you already believe in, or are not what you want to hear, they will likely be ignored. Hence, not listening to Jesus. Requires full submission and denial of your wife(subconscious) by covering of the Spirit.

That still soft soothing voice within in the form of thought from a pure conscious mind and aura of spirit. Always gently nudging at everyone. Within. Not many choose to listen to this better judgement. One continues to judge others, judge themselves in their own mind.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The mind and intellect can't interpret scriptures, the spirit does. Mind becomes covered and veiled by Spirit. One cannot meditate on something they think that they know. The idea is a still, open, and clear mind, and forget everything that we think we know. If the answers eventually brought into the conscious mind through thoughts, after patience, are conflicting with what you already believe in, or are not what you want to hear, they will likely be ignored. Hence, not listening to Jesus. Requires full submission and denial of your wife(subconscious) by covering of the Spirit.
I had this analogy come to me this morning as I meditated. Think of this stilling of the mind like that of a mother holding the hand of a troubled child. As the child sits and stews, fussing and worrying his mind over this or that that troubles him, his mother reaches out and touches his hand. Suddenly the child is calmed, because his focus has turned from his mind, his troubled thoughts, to the love and presence and assurance of his mother that all is well. It is in simple trust of that love, that the child lets go and his thought 'empties' into that of his mother's love and assurance. As he does this, he breathing slows, his body relaxes, his mind stills.

This is meditation practice. It's no more "hocus-pocus" than what we all do with our minds in common things. The only difference is that it is a deliberate practicing this calming of the mind in a disciplined practice, rather than going through our lives flaying around hoping to find moments of peace through this or that distraction. As we practice this placing of the mind into a state of silent "trust", as it were, we soon learn that the rest of what goes on in the mind is none other than what we do to ourselves through giving into the thoughts as the truth of reality itself. It's all an illusion of the mind, things we tell ourselves to be true, believe in them, and then respond to them emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually. All that meditation does is teach you to "be still, and know that I am the Lord". It is to learn to rest in Spirit itself as our Center, and our Ground, rather than simply learning to cope with the illusion of the mind and its storylines it creates for us.

How, and why, anyone objects to this, is beyond comprehension. Do they fear letting go of all of that garbage we swim in as we trying to keep our nose above water? Meditation teaches you, shows you, makes it apparent, you can actually stand up in that stream and step out of it, walk on water, as it were. "Peace, be still", Jesus said to the raging seas.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
First of all, As we know, God spoke the universe into place. Do you know how? Do I know how? No, we do not, but we know that the Spirit was at work, so we have 2 options.

1. Dismiss it as truth because we cannot humanly understand it
2. Accept by faith and the accuracy of the texts that Gods spoken voice is powerful and beyond human comprehension.
I'm actually not entirely clear how your response fits in with my answering what my understanding of Jesus saying I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life is? But I'll respond to these points anyway.

There are of course more options than these to the above. I really don't want to lay all of those out, but it'll suffice to say that reading the scriptures as a book of science is not the only other option! :) I believe God creates the universe (note the active tense, please :) ). I believe those who wrote the creation stories of the Bible (there are two different ones), in a sense intuited the divine creative nature behind the visible world. The stories themselves reflect this intuition, though not necessarily to be understood as a matter of science and history. It is an expression of the divine in creation itself. "The heavens declare the glory of God, the firmament shows his handiwork, day unto day utters speech, night unto night shows knowledge".

How imagine it for me is not a matter of trusting in an interpretation of the texts, reading them as facts of science as opposed to myth and metaphor, but a matter of my personal imagination and speculation. That provides a good, a useful way of modeling the world I live in, but I hold such views, such interpretations with an open hand, lest I grip them so tightly no new understanding can enter my mind and I be shut off from Truth.

The "vehicle" God used to speak to men has changed, but the message has remained consistent.
Well, no, actually it has not. The message as understood has changed throughout the ages, as culture, and knowledge, civilization, and ideas have grown and evolved. You only have to look at the understandings spoken of in the NT compared to the OT to see that! :) But I could get into many examples of this if need be. Suffice to say, "God" is the same. How we understand God is not.

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Well, yes, but how you understand that applied is not in the same context I understand it. Again, different points of view, same Bible.

God divinely used faithful men to document his message to us and for us. Just as God speaking the universe into existence has no reasonable, explainable, understandable concepts, we believe it because of faith AND the accuracy of the prophesies recorded. The bible doesn't just say "Christ died" Christ rose" it says "according to the scriptures"

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

What gives Gods word credibility and authority TODAY in the here and now is that His words have been fulfilled. I wouldn't believe simply by blind faith, that would be ignorance. I believe because He has proved beyond a reasonable doubt through the prophecies that He is indeed God and His words were divinely given through the Holy Spirit to men to write so that we might have a "more sure word" than the audible voice of God.
What is being argued here is not about God speaking to the hearts of men, but a very modern, 20th century doctrine of Biblical Inerrancy. That is an interpretation of all these things, and an interpretation I find flawed on academic levels, as well as other reasons, not the least of which is what I have been talking about throughout this thread about the relative nature of interpretation. But debating that modern American doctrine is not what this thread is really about.

Just as in the beginning, God spoke and the Spirit moved, so it is with the word of God in ANY form, be it audible or written, the Spirit moves.
Or on the tablets of the heart written in silence? You are aware of that verse I quoted before which says, "written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts".? What makes that invalid?

I do understand you, possibly too much for my own comfortability. I was at the threshold of "letting go", and God saved my soul. This is problematic for you because you believe I stopped short of the "divine", I myself believe I stopped short of a strong delusion. We all must decide.
I'll just skip ahead here to the end since it's all arguing the modern doctrine of Biblical inerrancy, it seems, to this point. Why do you say this is problematic for me? Let's focus on that.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
If a person becomes a follower of Christ, he is already engaging in a spiritual battle.
I'm certainly not engaging in any Spiritual battle. maybe you're fighting against your nature, but as I see it, I fully embrace myself as the beautiful, whole, and good human being God made me to be, so there's no need to "do battle."
I don't interpret it differently, it is obviously seen that there is really no quieting of mind.
Obviously you don't know what the interpretive process is.
I can do quiet times as meditating His word, praying without disturbance around me; no breathing technique nor centering prayer.
Great! Do that, if that's what you're comfortable with. But don't go braying on about how what I'm doing is "wrong" or "dangerous" or "New Age" or "Satanic" when you don't understand the process.
I'm allowing the Holy Spirit to guide me during my meditation with Scriptures.
IOW, your'e "reading," not "meditating."
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
But one thing that comes in my mind, how will you reconcile the true fact/right things to you, like where are you born, and you study at college A for 4 years (for example)? Is it an absolute truth to you or not? What if somebody tell me that you did not study at college A but College B for 4 years? who will be the right?
You're conflating "truth" with "fact." They aren't the same thing.
I had this analogy come to me this morning as I meditated. Think of this stilling of the mind like that of a mother holding the hand of a troubled child. As the child sits and stews, fussing and worrying his mind over this or that that troubles him, his mother reaches out and touches his hand. Suddenly the child is calmed, because his focus has turned from his mind, his troubled thoughts, to the love and presence and assurance of his mother that all is well. It is in simple trust of that love, that the child lets go and his thought 'empties' into that of his mother's love and assurance. As he does this, he breathing slows, his body relaxes, his mind stills.

This is meditation practice. It's no more "hocus-pocus" than what we all do with our minds in common things. The only difference is that it is a deliberate practicing this calming of the mind in a disciplined practice, rather than going through our lives flaying around hoping to find moments of peace through this or that distraction. As we practice this placing of the mind into a state of silent "trust", as it were, we soon learn that the rest of what goes on in the mind is none other than what we do to ourselves through giving into the thoughts as the truth of reality itself. It's all an illusion of the mind, things we tell ourselves to be true, believe in them, and then respond to them emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually. All that meditation does is teach you to "be still, and know that I am the Lord". It is to learn to rest in Spirit itself as our Center, and our Ground, rather than simply learning to cope with the illusion of the mind and its storylines it creates for us.

How, and why, anyone objects to this, is beyond comprehension. Do they fear letting go of all of that garbage we swim in as we trying to keep our nose above water? Meditation teaches you, shows you, makes it apparent, you can actually stand up in that stream and step out of it, walk on water, as it were. "Peace, be still", Jesus said to the raging seas.
We appear to be beating our heads against the wall here. There's just too much rigid indoctrination going on without the fostering of understanding.
 
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