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The whys of Hell and Jesus.

viole

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
URAVIP2ME said:
Please keep in mind Genesis 1:28 because Adam and Eve (including their descendants - us ) were to fill the earth, Not overpopulate earth. Mankind was to reproduce only until earth was full or populated. As to God's purpose as to what would be after earth would be populated the Bible is silent, but according to Scripture during Jesus' coming 1,000 year governmental rule over earth new books or new scrolls will be opened for mankind's knowledge. We don't know God's purpose for the universe(s).
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Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve?

Adam sold us in to the Pawn Shop of Death. We can't pay our way out of the grave or death. We need someone from the outside who can pay over the price for our release from enemy death. Jesus' faithful death or ransom price is like ready cash to pay off our sin debt. If we could stop sinning we would Not die. Because we can't stop sinning we die and need a Resurrector - Matthew 20:28
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Not impressive. How can Jesus have paid with His death if He was alive and kicking three days later? It would be like me paying a million, knowing perfectly well that I would get it back after the weekend.
Everybody can do that sort of "sacrifice".

ALL who sin are consigned to the Bible's temporary hell or grave for the dead - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4
God's Law in Eden was: you eat, you die. God can not lie, and God does Not go back on His word.
Like with Adam there is NO postmortem penalty associated with death - Genesis 3:19 - just sleep - John 11:11-14; Daniel 12:2
Adam wrongly ate and lost his healthy human perfection of sound heart, mind and body, so our father Adam could No longer pass down to us his healthy human perfection but only his acquired human imperfection. The passing of time has allowed for us to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us. Otherwise we simply would Not be here. Adam proved faithless under least, both Job and Jesus proved faithful under much thus proving Adam would have been faithful if he wanted to and we can too.
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How could Adam do something wrong if he was perfect?

Ciao

- viole
 
jojom

jojom

Active Member
URAVIP2ME said:
First of all, there is the Bible's temporary hell, and also the teaching of a non-biblical permanent hell just taught as being Scripture.
The Bible's hell is the temporary grave or sleeping place for the dead - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; John 11:11-14.
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And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever;
(Revelation 14:11)

And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
(2 Thessalonians 1:9)

It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Matthew 18:

Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:46

Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.


.​
 
arthra

arthra

Baha'i
jojom said:
Q. 4 What do you think god achieves by, or derives from, setting up this particular escape rout: believing in Jesus as one's savior?
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Baha'is believe God sends Messengers or Manifestations of God (of Whom Jesus was one) as Mediators between Himself and His creation or in this case humanity. The ultimate purpose being so that mankind can know and worship God which will lead to an ever advancing civilization and advancement of sentient beings created by Him:

"All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization."

~ Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 214

"Divine revelation is a continuous and progressive process and that the missions of the Messengers of God represent successive stages in the spiritual evolution of human society.
The purpose of human life for us is to know and love God, to acquire virtues and spiritual qualities, and to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization."
 
jojom

jojom

Active Member
arthra said:
Baha'is believe God sends Messengers or Manifestations of God (of Whom Jesus was one) as Mediators between Himself and His creation or in this case humanity. The ultimate purpose being so that mankind can know and worship God which will lead to an ever advancing civilization and advancement of sentient beings created by Him:
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See any evidence that this mediation has had any effect? Advancement in civilization and of sentient beings that can be directly attributed to it?
 
K

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
jojom said:
If any of the questions here have reasonable answers, please share.

Q.1 Why did the god of Abraham create hell, or at least lets it exist?

Q.2 Does eternal punishment truly fit the crime of comparatively brief temporal sin?

Q.3 Why create such a narrow and conditional means of avoiding hell---believe in Jesus as one's savior? (Most of civilization never heard of it, or have been convinced of its necessity.)

Q. 4 What do you think god achieves by, or derives from, setting up this particular escape rout: believing in Jesus as one's savior?
​

And please, no "God works in mysterious ways" or similar explanations.


.
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1. He didn't create anything, his essence was created by the men who thought him up, and survives by the men and women who believe in him.
2. Never.
3. N/A
4. N/A

So much simpler now :)

Some schools of Hinduism believe in Hell, but it's temporary to burn excess karma, and it's based on actions, not what you believe.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
psychoslice said:
I am very sure, I have experienced the beyond, and through that experience I have realized that we are all that IS, if you rather be where you are then that's up to you.
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I remember when I once wrote something nonsensical.
 
arthra

arthra

Baha'i
jojom said:
See any evidence that this mediation has had any effect? Advancement in civilization and of sentient beings that can be directly attributed to it?
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Yes some of the great civilizations have spun from it in our view. In the case of Buddhism it was the Asokan empire... Christianity also united much of the Roman world and preserved civilization...Islam is a more recent case where civilization advanced. More ancient examples are possible...:)
 
psychoslice

psychoslice

Veteran Member
arthra said:
Yes some of the great civilizations have spun from it in our view. In the case of Buddhism it was the Asokan empire... Christianity also united much of the Roman world and preserved civilization...Islam is a more recent case where civilization advanced. More ancient examples are possible...:)
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Its a pity that Islam has regressed back to a uncivilized way.
 
Hong Xiuquan

Hong Xiuquan

Member
Tumah said:
​

The source at end (Maimonides) takes the opinion that the souls of the wicked are destroyed completely and not that they experience eternal damnation. The author of that article seems to have added that last bit it without listing a source for it and contrary to common Jewish opinion.
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Thanks for clarifying that. I'm a Protestant Christian. In your opinion, is the Purgatory of the Catholics or the Hell of the Protestants closer to what mainstream Judaism teaches?
 
Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
Hong Xiuquan said:
Thanks for clarifying that. I'm a Protestant Christian. In your opinion, is the Purgatory of the Catholics or the Hell of the Protestants closer to what mainstream Judaism teaches?
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I'm not familiar with either. Could you explain the difference?

Also, my view is mainstream Orthodox. The vast majority of Jews are not Orthodox, so I can't speak for them.
 
Hong Xiuquan

Hong Xiuquan

Member
Tumah said:
I'm not familiar with either. Could you explain the difference?

Also, my view is mainstream Orthodox. The vast majority of Jews are not Orthodox, so I can't speak for them.
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I'm not an expert on Catholicism so I'd prefer a Catholic to explain Purgatory. However, I always "assumed" that Catholics believe that Purgatory is a way of working off your sin, and later making it to Heaven. Murderers etc maybe in there for 1000s of years whereas a person who was not really that bad, but stole a few cheap things maybe in there for a short time. Catholics also pray for their dead, to help them get out of Purgatory earlier. Once out, they are free of sin and can go to Heaven. Any Catholics reading this are free to correct me if I'm wrong.

The Protestant view is that Catholics have no Biblical basis for believing in Purgatory and it was Martin Luther (the Catholic priest who triggered the reformation and helped start the Protestant church) who stated that Purgatory was an invention of the Catholic church. Protestants believe in Heaven and Hell only. We believe that people could not be saved from Hell without a sacrifice which was an animal one (mentioned in the Torah) before Christ; and Christ's sacrifice on the cross after the dead and resurrection of Christ. The Protestant Hell is a place of fire where sinners live for eternity.

What do Orthodox Jews believe about: 1. animal sacrifice in the Torah, 2. salvation after the temple was destroyed, 3. Heaven and Hell? I'd like to hear your perspective.
 
Hong Xiuquan

Hong Xiuquan

Member
rusra02 said:
1. God did not create a place of torment. No such place exists.
2. The punishment for sin is death, not eternal torment. (Romans 6:23)
3. The ransom sacrifice of Christ was necessary to ransom mankind from sin and death. (John 3:16)
4. God shows mercy to deserving ones while satisfying his own standard of perfect justice and righteousness.(Romans 3:26)
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Your answer to number 1 is not a mainstream Christian view. In fact, I've never met a Christian with that view actually. What is your denomination? If you don't have one it's ok. I like your other answers.
 
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