Experiencing God

[mystic64]

My first post. A reply to post #1. God is not a "he".

Hi LastingLight and wecome to this message board ! What God are you refurring too? There are a lot of gods out there that come in one of the two sexes and some that come in both or neither, but the Jewish, Islamic, and Christian God is a male god. LastingLight, have you ever met the God of Abraham or the God of Moses personally? I have and found them both to be male. As a mystic though, I have found that ultimately you can reach a point where God is non sexual and is not of either sex. And one can worship God as a female, but it will not be the God of Abraham or Moses. It will be a different enity. I have met the Goddess personally and She is a wonderful entity to worship, unless of course you are talking about the goddess Kali, she is tricky to worship .

Again LastingLight, wecome to this message board! And don't be shy, just wade in and post. Some days will go well and some days won't. Oh well

 

[Cephus]

My first post. A reply to post #1. God is not a "he".

God is not anything, there's no evidence that God is real. God is a figment of your imagination.

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

As human beings, we are limited by our own senses. Evidence, as you say, must enter into us through our limited means. We make tools and machines to broaden our senses, yet we are still "ants in the universe". There is a blind man that rides a bicycle in public by making clicking noises with his mouth and and listening as the sound bounces off objects, like a bat does. The loss of 1 sense heightens others. How could a blind, mute, and deaf person like Helen Keller become so educated? There is a mentally handicapped man who can listen to a piano composition for the first time and play it back perfectly, not for note, yet he can not tell you what day it is. There is the physical world and the spiritual world. Sometimes they overlap, but rarely. You can not use your physical senses to understand the spiritual world. A man invented a camera that takes pictures of, not what the light reflects off of but what it passes through. He takes some really thought provoking photos with it. Unexplainable photos. You can not find the spiritual world with physical senses. You have to develop your spiritual senses in order to sense God. Or as I call God "The All". Not everyone can do this. Jesus told his followers that the kingdom was inside of them and outside of them. That the kingdom was all around them, but they just didn't know how to see it. That is my answer to "evidence".

 

[Muffled]

What I said was completely accurate. There is no evidence for the existence of any spirits. When you come back with some evidence, we'll evaluate it and see if it is credible. Until then, no.

I believe you are in error. You have no proof. I do have proof.

 

[Cephus]

I believe you are in error. You have no proof. I do have proof.

But I don't need proof, I'm not claiming spirits aren't real, I'm just pointing out that you haven't made your case. You have 100% of the burden of proof and you've failed.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

My experience of God has actually brought me to a point where I no longer require faith to believe in God. I am absolutely certain of his existence and presence in my life.

From my non-believing perspective, I have to reluctantly, and unfortunately admit that, even were I to have some sort of "experience", I would never truly be sure whether it was truly "real", or truly happened as I witnessed or felt, or if I was under some form of delusion, or had some bad shellfish or something. Especially, of course, if I were alone, or it only happened to me.

If I had to guess, this may be an explanation for even some believers' hesitancy to share their stories. They can keep it to themselves and remain convinced of its reality, and refuse to share it because they fear its description may not hold up to outside scrutiny.

 

[Muffled]

But I don't need proof, I'm not claiming spirits aren't real, I'm just pointing out that you haven't made your case. You have 100% of the burden of proof and you've failed.

Post #815.

 

[Muffled]

From my non-believing perspective, I have to reluctantly, and unfortunately admit that, even were I to have some sort of "experience", I would never truly be sure whether it was truly "real", or truly happened as I witnessed or felt, or if I was under some form of delusion, or had some bad shellfish or something. Especially, of course, if I were alone, or it only happened to me.

If I had to guess, this may be an explanation for even some believers' hesitancy to share their stories. They can keep it to themselves and remain convinced of its reality, and refuse to share it because they fear its description may not hold up to outside scrutiny.

I believe mine hold up but I can see why some people would prefer tonot be labelled a nut case which is the world's knee jerk reaction.

 

[Cephus]

Post #815.

That's an assertion, not evidence. You claim God told you something, you cannot prove that God did because in order to do that, you'd need to prove God exists. Blind faith is not evidence. Do try again.

 

[Muffled]

That's an assertion, not evidence. You claim God told you something, you cannot prove that God did because in order to do that, you'd need to prove God exists. Blind faith is not evidence. Do try again.

I believe saying something is not evidence because yuou don't agree with it is self congratualting but if you can prove that what I said isn't evidence you are welcome to try. Of course you will tell me that I have to prove that it is evidence.

Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion - Wikipedia

My assertion was that God spoke to me. The evidence was that the prophecy came true and that it was pertinent to God;s interests.

I bellieve the evidence of God speaking to me is proof that God exists.

 

[Cephus]

I believe saying something is not evidence because yuou don't agree with it is self congratualting but if you can prove that what I said isn't evidence you are welcome to try. Of course you will tell me that I have to prove that it is evidence.

Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion - Wikipedia

My assertion was that God spoke to me. The evidence was that the prophecy came true and that it was pertinent to God;s interests.

I bellieve the evidence of God speaking to me is proof that God exists.

But that doesn't translate to anyone else. Your claims about a supposed experience with God means nothing to me because you have no way to show that it ever actually happened. I no more believe you than I believe people who say they were abducted by aliens but have no evidence to present to show it is true. Color me entirely unimpressed with your claims.

 

[Muffled]

But that doesn't translate to anyone else. Your claims about a supposed experience with God means nothing to me because you have no way to show that it ever actually happened. I no more believe you than I believe people who say they were abducted by aliens but have no evidence to present to show it is true. Color me entirely unimpressed with your claims.

I believe you are saying that it is possible that I am lieing. I am the way the truth and the life; there is no attempt to deceive as satan would.

 

[Johnlove]

I am amazed that so many believers that have had "spiritual" experiences won't share their experiences with others. It ought not surprise me however, as I too have had "spiritual" experiences that I just will not share with anyone. I gather that the telling of such experiences puts one at risk of throwing one's pearls to the swine.

My experience of God has actually brought me to a point where I no longer require faith to believe in God. I am absolutely certain of his existence and presence in my life.

So I guess that leaves me with a question for those who have had God experiences. What do you think it was that you did which enabled you to experience what you experienced? What did you do to invoke God's attention?

I did nothing to deserve God’s attention.


Jesus once told me that he did not make perfect people but chose to use me anyway.


It is a great blessing that Jesus chose to know me, and give me the grace to be his obedient servant.

 

[Cephus]

I believe you are saying that it is possible that I am lieing. I am the way the truth and the life; there is no attempt to deceive as satan would.

No, although that certainly is true. It's also possible that you are mistaken. It's possible that you are delusional. It's possible that you are being deceived. There are lots of possibilities and you have presented no means to determine which, if any of these are true.

 

[godnotgod]

But that doesn't translate to anyone else. Your claims about a supposed experience with God means nothing to me because you have no way to show that it ever actually happened. I no more believe you than I believe people who say they were abducted by aliens but have no evidence to present to show it is true. Color me entirely unimpressed with your claims.

In the case of spiritual experiences, there is no evidence because there is nothing to prove. The experience itself is proof. But since you apparently have not had such experiences, it is like someone looking out on a fabulous vista from the balcony and trying to describe it to someone in the basement. The only way for that person in the basement to understand what is being said to him is for him to travel upstairs to the balcony and have a look for himself. There is no other way, and for the man in the basement to continue to demand evidence when the evidence is obviously the experience itself is simply to bang one's head repeatedly against a wall. That should be obvious to the man in the basement, but he behaves otherwise. Meanwhile, the man on the balcony is trying to convince the man in the basement that what he is experiencing is real, which is also impossible. He knows that the only way the man in the basement can realize such an experience is to go see for himself. Otherwise, all we have here is a pointless loggerhead.

 

[Cephus]

In the case of spiritual experiences, there is no evidence because there is nothing to prove. The experience itself is proof. But since you apparently have not had such experiences, it is like someone looking out on a fabulous vista from the balcony and trying to describe it to someone in the basement. The only way for that person in the basement to understand what is being said to him is for him to travel upstairs to the balcony and have a look for himself. There is no other way, and for the man in the basement to continue to demand evidence when the evidence is obviously the experience itself is simply to bang one's head repeatedly against a wall. That should be obvious to the man in the basement, but he behaves otherwise. Meanwhile, the man on the balcony is trying to convince the man in the basement that what he is experiencing is real, which is also impossible. He knows that the only way the man in the basement can realize such an experience is to go see for himself. Otherwise, all we have here is a pointless loggerhead.

But because you have no way to evaluate the experience, you can never know if your interpretation of the experience is correct. You're just taking an emotional interpretation and demanding that it must be correct because it makes you feel good to think so. While you're welcome to believe what you want, nobody has to take you seriously if all you have is a subjective interpretation of an experience you can't even prove happened.

This is also entirely different than trying to explain the view from the balcony to someone in the basement because, as you said, they can always come upstairs. There is no means for someone who doesn't have a religious experience to have a religious experience. It isn't like they can go somewhere or do something and guarantee that they're going to have an experience and their experience is wholly subjective. One person might say they had an experience with God, one might say they had an experience with Vishnu, one might say they had an experience with the Flying Spaghetti Monster and one might recognize that this is all aberrant brain chemistry and no experience actually took place. So given the four people here, all with the same experience and all with different interpretation, how do we tell which, if any, are actually true? Only the one who looks at it rationally and recognizes aberrant brain chemistry can be tested. The rest are just inventing things within themselves, based on past experiences, cultural indoctrination, etc., none of which can be shown to be at all valid. We're only at loggerheads if people are more interested in what makes them feel good than in what's actually true.

 

[godnotgod]

But because you have no way to evaluate the experience, you can never know if your interpretation of the experience is correct. You're just taking an emotional interpretation and demanding that it must be correct because it makes you feel good to think so. While you're welcome to believe what you want, nobody has to take you seriously if all you have is a subjective interpretation of an experience you can't even prove happened.

This is also entirely different than trying to explain the view from the balcony to someone in the basement because, as you said, they can always come upstairs. There is no means for someone who doesn't have a religious experience to have a religious experience. It isn't like they can go somewhere or do something and guarantee that they're going to have an experience and their experience is wholly subjective. One person might say they had an experience with God, one might say they had an experience with Vishnu, one might say they had an experience with the Flying Spaghetti Monster and one might recognize that this is all aberrant brain chemistry and no experience actually took place. So given the four people here, all with the same experience and all with different interpretation, how do we tell which, if any, are actually true? Only the one who looks at it rationally and recognizes aberrant brain chemistry can be tested. The rest are just inventing things within themselves, based on past experiences, cultural indoctrination, etc., none of which can be shown to be at all valid. We're only at loggerheads if people are more interested in what makes them feel good than in what's actually true.

Of course, all metaphors have limitations, mine being no exception.

You are, of course, correct about personal interpretations of the experience. That is why, ultimately, the spiritual experience is actually impersonal. It cannot be interpreted via a personal viewpoint. When I say 'impersonal', I do not mean cold and uncaring; I mean, simply, that it's source is not of a personal nature. It is an experience of something far greater than that of a personal nature. If you had studied the literature, you would eventually find that there is a consistency in the reporting of the experience, where those participants are not seeing things merely via their personal viewpoint. This consistency has shown itself to be the case of people around the world, removed from one another in time and place. Why is this so? Because firstly, the experience is of the inner world, and that inner source of the experience is the same for all humans. IOW, what I am saying is that, there is a universal source within everyone whose nature is not that of a personal view.

In the world of Zen, for example, there is an experience of unrealized meditators called makyo, which are, essentially, hallucinations, stirred up by the intense meditation sessions called sesshin. Students come to their teachers swearing up and down that they saw the Buddha, or Jesus, or the Blessed Virgin standing right there in front of them, real as life. The teacher recognizes these as hallucinations, having gone through them himself, now past that point, and quietly instructs his students to return to their meditation mats and focus on their breath over the protests of the students. Eventually, as the student progresses, he recognizes his delusive state for what it was. Of course, Zen is focused on a goal far greater, that of Enlightenment.

So if I invite you to come see for yourself what I see, this is perfectly possible but only when you are willing to leave behind the baggage of your personal views, emptying yourself of all preconceived notions about what the true nature of Reality actually is, and yes, I do mean that the rational, analytical mind is also part of this baggage. The difference is one of thinking and conceptualizing about what one sees, as compared to direct seeing into the true nature of Reality itself.

 

[Muffled]

No, although that certainly is true. It's also possible that you are mistaken. It's possible that you are delusional. It's possible that you are being deceived. There are lots of possibilities and you have presented no means to determine which, if any of these are true.

I do not believe I was mistaken. It is possible that you are mistaken.

I believe I know that I am not delusional.

I believe all things turned out to be true so there was no deception.

Here it is for you to evaluate:

The Holy Spirit came to me on Saturday night saying that they slipped something in. On that Sunday morning the confession was being given as usual but at the end "in the name of Jesus" was slipped in when it never had been before.
This is something that Jesus took exception to because it suggested that He was responsible for a person sinning when in fact He is the savior from sin.

 

[Muffled]

I did nothing to deserve God’s attention.


Jesus once told me that he did not make perfect people but chose to use me anyway.


It is a great blessing that Jesus chose to know me, and give me the grace to be his obedient servant.

I believe that is wonderful but what is your experience?

 

[Johnlove]

I believe that is wonderful but what is your experience?

To share my experience with Jesus Christ our Lord and God, would take a book of words. Yet no words could truly convey my experience with God.


Jesus has shown himself to me, and has personally taught me about him for forty years.


God has made a home in me, and guide everything that is done by me.


I am a servant of God’s, and his will, will be my will forever.


(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

(John 14:21) “Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.”