Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

[katiemygirl]

Thats right. Thats what i'm saying..

You say the blood of bulls and goats could forgive sin.

Then why did Jesus have to shed His blood if the blood of bulls and goats could forgive sins?

Doesn't verse 1 say that the sacrifices offered each year could NEVER make worshipers perfect?

Doesn't verse 2 teach us that worshipers were not made clean once for all time?

And in verse 3, weren't the sins of the people remembered?

Can you explain why Paul in verse 4 says it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins?

Hebrews 10
1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Forgiveness, in the OT was temporary. It took the blood of Jesus to take the sins away permanently, once for all..

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Im yet to see a christian denomination do what the WT has done over the past 100 odd years.

I agree, a JW haven't seen Christendom do what the WT has done for some 100 odd years.

The WT taught for a 100 odd years a "TRUTH" that they didn't really understand about prophecy. Christendom opposed the "TRUTH" the WT was teaching about Jesus coming back invisibly, about the world ending in 1914, 1919, 1925 and so on. Who was right?

The GB teach their "OPINION" not truth. You're right, prophets of old may have not understood what God was saying to them, but they wrote "WHAT" God said. The Bible says that the writers wrote as they were moved by the Spirit, they claim to be "INFALLIBLE". If the GB taught what they are "DIRECTED" to teach, how can they claim "NOT" to be "INFALLIBLE"? "IF" they are Spirit directed and claim to be infallible, they are claiming that God may be wrong.

In the WT you put your faith and hope in the GB not in God. Knowing that the GB claims to be fallible, that they might not "UNDERSTAND" correctly, their "UNDERSTANDING" may have errors, how can you put faith in that? You can never say with an "HONEST" heart that you know the truth. If they're not 100% sure what they understand to be the truth, how can you?

1Co 2:1-5 (ESVST) . 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

2Co 11:12-15 (ESVST) 12 And what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

You ask a JW why they trust their religion they say, what other religion goes door to door, what other religion uses God's personal name, what other religion doesn't eat blood, what other religion works for free. Not one says anything about God or Jesus, it's all about what "THEY" are doing.

 

[Pegg]

What were the spirits in prison if they weren't dead people?

Peter gives a clue as to what he's refering to in the passage:

2Peter 3:19 And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison,+20 who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting*in Noah’s day,+ while the ark was being constructed,+ in which a few people, that is, eight souls,* were carried safely through the water​

In a few verses earlier, Peter said 2:4 Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels+ that sinned,but, by throwing them into Tarʹta·rus,*+ delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment;

And the disciple Jude likewise mentions these same disobedient angels in Jude 6 And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place,+ he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.

If you are following the scriputres on who the spirits are, then who can deny that they are the fallen angles....otherwise known as satan and the demons.

 

[Pegg]

Yes, it is what I believe the Scriptures teach. Our God is loving and merciful, but He is also a just God.

2 Thess. 1:8
...In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:..

Your second question makes no sense. You may want to rephrase it.

Yes, Jesus did die for the ungodly.

What does Jesus say about the ungodly who do not repent?

Acts 24:15 And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection+ of both the righteous and the unrighteous

 

[katiemygirl]

Acts 24:15 And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection+ of both the righteous and the unrighteous

That's correct!

What does Jesus say about the ungodly who do not repent?

 

[katiemygirl]

Peter gives a clue as to what he's refering to in the passage:

2Peter 3:19 And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison,+20 who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting*in Noah’s day,+ while the ark was being constructed,+ in which a few people, that is, eight souls,* were carried safely through the water​

In a few verses earlier, Peter said 2:4 Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels+ that sinned,but, by throwing them into Tarʹta·rus,*+ delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment;

And the disciple Jude likewise mentions these same disobedient angels in Jude 6 And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place,+ he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.

If you are following the scriputres on who the spirits are, then who can deny that they are the fallen angles....otherwise known as satan and the demons.

I disagree with you Pegg, but right now we have several discussions taking place between us. Let's finish the others before we elaborate on this one. Ok?

 

[Pegg]

You say the blood of bulls and goats could forgive sin.

No i didnt. I said that God has been forgiving mankind since before the time that Christ gave his life as a ransom for sins.

Then why did Jesus have to shed His blood if the blood of bulls and goats could forgive sins?

Because forgiveness alone is not enough to excuse sinners from the penalty of death. The be truly saved from sin, we must have the death penalty removed permanently.

Jesus sacrifice has paved the way for that to happen. And in the future, everlasting life will be the result just as christianity teaches:

John 3:15 so that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life

1John 5:13 I write you these things so that you may know that you have life everlasting,+ you who put your faith in the name of the Son of God.

 

[Pegg]

That's correct!

What does Jesus say about the ungodly who do not repent?

If they have already died, like the criminal who died alongside Jesus.... they will "be with me in paradise" Luke 23:43

And if they continue to sin after they are resurrected for that 2nd chance at life, they will die again once for all time:
Rev 21:8 But as for the cowards and those without faith+and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers+ and the sexually immoral*+ and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars,+ their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur.+ This means the second death.”

 

[Pegg]

I disagree with you Pegg, but right now we have several discussions taking place between us. Let's finish the others before we elaborate on this one. Ok?

Ok,
But you are not disagreeing with me on this. I only used the scriptures to answer your question. Peter and Jude are the ones you are disagreeing with.

 

[Pegg]

I agree, a JW haven't seen Christendom do what the WT has done for some 100 odd years.

The WT taught for a 100 odd years a "TRUTH" that they didn't really understand about prophecy. Christendom opposed the "TRUTH" the WT was teaching about Jesus coming back invisibly, about the world ending in 1914, 1919, 1925 and so on. Who was right?

The GB teach their "OPINION" not truth. You're right, prophets of old may have not understood what God was saying to them, but they wrote "WHAT" God said. The Bible says that the writers wrote as they were moved by the Spirit, they claim to be "INFALLIBLE". If the GB taught what they are "DIRECTED" to teach, how can they claim "NOT" to be "INFALLIBLE"? "IF" they are Spirit directed and claim to be infallible, they are claiming that God may be wrong.

In the WT you put your faith and hope in the GB not in God. Knowing that the GB claims to be fallible, that they might not "UNDERSTAND" correctly, their "UNDERSTANDING" may have errors, how can you put faith in that? You can never say with an "HONEST" heart that you know the truth. If they're not 100% sure what they understand to be the truth, how can you?

1Co 2:1-5 (ESVST) . 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

2Co 11:12-15 (ESVST) 12 And what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

You ask a JW why they trust their religion they say, what other religion goes door to door, what other religion uses God's personal name, what other religion doesn't eat blood, what other religion works for free. Not one says anything about God or Jesus, it's all about what "THEY" are doing.

and what are you doing?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

There will always be people who take issue with the fact that the WT has at times had wrong ideas and have had to adjust their teachings and we are not shy to admit such errors. The WT itself publicly publishes its past teaching errors. But wouldnt it be worse if they failed to do so???

It's good to admit errors. But when those errors are taught as "TRUTH" for 100 years and destroy many families and lives then admitting the error carries no weight. They admit to error, I'm still looking but have not yet found, any form of apology or statement of regret. Is the WT actively looking for past members whose lives were destroyed because they didn't accept the "TRUTH" that Jesus appointed the slave over all his belongings in 1919?

What does it tell you about an org. that takes 100 years, "DIRECTED" by God, to figure out they were wrong? The JW's don't believe in eternal hell because God is so loving. How can a loving God let His people be taught a lie for so long? How can a loving God that say's, "this is eternal life, their taking in "ACCURATE" knowledge" let His people be taught "FALSE" truth?

If what the GB claims to be in error today, it was in error when they taught it. If it's wrong now, it was wrong then. So when they claim, Mat 24:45 (ESVST) 45 " Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? That food was not fit for human or spiritual consumption. It was poisoned with "FALSEHOOD".

 

[savagewind]

and what are you doing?

You have to be kidding

 

[Pegg]

It's good to admit errors. But when those errors are taught as "TRUTH" for 100 years and destroy many families and lives then admitting the error carries no weight. They admit to error, I'm still looking but have not yet found, any form of apology or statement of regret. Is the WT actively looking for past members whose lives were destroyed because they didn't accept the "TRUTH" that Jesus appointed the slave over all his belongings in 1919?

What does it tell you about an org. that takes 100 years, "DIRECTED" by God, to figure out they were wrong? The JW's don't believe in eternal hell because God is so loving. How can a loving God let His people be taught a lie for so long? How can a loving God that say's, "this is eternal life, their taking in "ACCURATE" knowledge" let His people be taught "FALSE" truth?

If what the GB claims to be in error today, it was in error when they taught it. If it's wrong now, it was wrong then. So when they claim, Mat 24:45 (ESVST) 45 " Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? That food was not fit for human or spiritual consumption. It was poisoned with "FALSEHOOD".

because the things you are pointing your finger at are minor. They didnt destroy anyones life, i think that is bit of an overreaction. They may have kept people guessing....but there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[savagewind]

because the things you are pointing your finger at are minor. They didnt destroy anyones life, i think that is bit of an overreaction. They may have kept people guessing....but there is nothing wrong with that.

Didn't destroy anyone's life? How can you say that as 1. you do not know and 2. many people sold ALL they had and took to the road. Imagine how they felt when 1975 came and went.......

 

[djhwoodwerks]

QUOTE="Pegg, post: 4319109, member: 23994"]and what are you doing?[/QUOTE]


Jn 3:13-15 (ESVST) 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

Jn 3:16 (ESVST) 16 " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Jn 3:35-36 (ESVST) . 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Jn 5:23-24 (ESVST) . 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Jn 6:39-40 (ESVST) . 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

Jn 6:44-48 (ESVST) . 45 It is written in the Prophets, ' And they will all be taught by God. ' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me — 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life.

Act 4:10-12 (ESVST) . 11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Act 16:29-32 (ESVST) . 30 Then he brought them out and said, " Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 And they said, " Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.

Rom 6:21-23 (ESVST) . 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

because the things you are pointing your finger at are minor. They didnt destroy anyones life, i think that is bit of an overreaction. They may have kept people guessing....but there is nothing wrong with that.

You can say they didn't destroy lives because you aren't allowed to read apostate literature. That's why you're not allowed to, so you won't find out. The rest of your comment makes my heart hurt. Jw's are willing to sacrifice their integrity to defend an org. that really has no clue to what they are doing. They can just quote Proverbs 4:18 and no one will ever question them. Read Proverbs 4:10-19, that is in no way talking about knowledge getting brighter.

I'll keep praying for the JW's. You are taught that there is only one religion, the WT. Read Rev. 1, seems to me that there are 7 churches, not just 1.

 

[Pegg]

You can say they didn't destroy lives because you aren't allowed to read apostate literature. That's why you're not allowed to, so you won't find out. The rest of your comment makes my heart hurt. Jw's are willing to sacrifice their integrity to defend an org. that really has no clue to what they are doing. They can just quote Proverbs 4:18 and no one will ever question them. Read Proverbs 4:10-19, that is in no way talking about knowledge getting brighter.

I'll keep praying for the JW's. You are taught that there is only one religion, the WT. Read Rev. 1, seems to me that there are 7 churches, not just 1.

There is only one true God and one true religion. Its up to us to search it out and determine it for ourselves. Im sure you've come to your determination as i've come to mine. we should let it rest there.

I wish you well

 

[Mountain_Climber]

There is only one true God and one true religion. Its up to us to search it out and determine it for ourselves. Im sure you've come to your determination as i've come to mine. we should let it rest there.

I wish you well

That is where you and I differ as to what religion is.

To you religion means what named group of worshipers you are a member with.

To me, religion is the quality of the service of love I personally render toward God and toward others in obedience to the greatest commandments.

 

[katiemygirl]

Ok,
But you are not disagreeing with me on this. I only used the scriptures to answer your question. Peter and Jude are the ones you are disagreeing with.

I disagree with your view of Scriptures. I don't disagree with what the Scriptures say.

To be continued...

 

[djhwoodwerks]

There is only one true God and one true religion. Its up to us to search it out and determine it for ourselves. Im sure you've come to your determination as i've come to mine. we should let it rest there.

I agree.

Jam 1:26-27 (ESVST) 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.


I would like to ask JW's a question. You claim you preach the good new that Jesus taught to preach. You are continuing the preaching that His disciples preached. I know the first thing every JW that has come to my house has said to get me to listen. My question is this, what is the good news of the Kingdom Jesus was referring to?