katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
I understand Kolibri, and I thank you for taking time from your busy schedule.
Jump into the discussion when you find time. I pray that whatever kept you up all night has been resolved and all is well with you and yours.
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Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??
- Thread starter katiemygirl
- Start date
Jump into the discussion when you find time. I pray that whatever kept you up all night has been resolved and all is well with you and yours.
The JWs assume people go UP to heaven. But Jesus came DOWN to Earth. I agree a person must die first to be born again but not a physical death.
Many people are now with heaven on their mind. It is not about their going there but real Heaven. Jesus rules us HERE and now.
What does "they have rejected Me from being king over them" mean? Being born again we are to have God over us as God was over Israel, though now it is through Jesus Christ. But not as subjects of a kingdom but as children of the king. We are born into God's family.
Many people are now with heaven on their mind. It is not about their going there but real Heaven. Jesus rules us HERE and now.
What does "they have rejected Me from being king over them" mean? Being born again we are to have God over us as God was over Israel, though now it is through Jesus Christ. But not as subjects of a kingdom but as children of the king. We are born into God's family.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
That was Paul's point in Romans chapter 6. It need not be a physical death.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
It was nothing serious. I am Health Kinesiologist. I was seeing myself as a client and the acupressure points I was holding was taking a long time to resolve the energy correction. Add to that that I only have 2 hands and so I had to repeat the process 3 times to get all the relevant points. Now I am up I have to see a few paying clients and do some household chores.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
So being born again means sealed, chosen, and receiving the Holy Spirit? And this happens when you are alive or after you're physically dead?
I apologize. Please have patience with me. I am still trying to get your position straight in my head.
I agree with what you said about rewards. They don't come until after we physically die. I also agree that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 15 that we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye from perishable to imperishable.
I am having difficulty seeing a separate anointed class in Scripture.
We should first define "anointed," don't you think? It seems as though it can mean different things in different contexts. Agree?
In the context of our discussion, would you say that anointed means consecrated or set apart?
If this is the case, aren't all believers anointed — consecrated and set aside for service to God.
Aren't we christians all specifically chosen by God for His use? Who is Paul writing to in his letter to the Ephesians??
Eph. 2:10
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
And who is Paul writing to in his 2nd letter to the Corinthians? Aren't all christians anointed and sealed?
2 Cor 1:21-22
"Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."
And who is John writing to here?
1Joh 2:20 "But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth."
And Peter? Who is he writing to? Doesn't he say all christians are chosen?
1 Pet 2:9 says
"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;"
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Yes I remember you telling me about your profession. Sounds very interesting!
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
I am sorry is I seem to be pressing at you on this. Perhaps looking at the literal translation will assist you to see what I said. I will bracket the changes to different Greek words:
"(if) (somehow) (I might attain down) (into) (the) (out-resurrection) (the) (out of) (dead)."
So can you now see what I mean when i say you are not accounting for the prefix I highlighted in red above? It seems that you are making it as though he said out of the dead twice.
What he is essentially saying is that it is out of the out of the dead. In other words it is set apart from the resurrection of the rest of the dead not necessarily in time but in quality and purpose.
I can see how you might understand that in this way, quote, "Notice that ALL (v.28) that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth, the good to life, the evil to damnation (v. 29)."I agree with you here.
"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming"
Here is where I disagree with you (though it's quite possible I am misunderstanding your position). I am a simple woman, so you have to speak to me in simple terms.
My understanding of Scripture is that there will be a general resurrection of both the good and the bad simutaneously. I base this partly on what Jesus said and on all verses combined, which speak of the resurrection that will occur when Jesus comes again.
Notice that ALL (v.28) that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth, the good to life, the evil to damnation (v. 29).
John 5
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Now ask yourself, if they all heard his voice and came forth from the dead over a period of time, would it not yet be true that, quote, ALL (v.28) that are in the graves heard His voice, and came forth, the good to life, the evil to damnation?
Also, please dig deeper into that word damnation which occurs there. Then we can talk about that word.
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Mountain_Climber
Active Member
One might glean from this, that those who insist on seeing Jesus as their only God are yet doing that same thing.
Innocently perhaps, but doing it none the less.
I think you mean like a trinity.
I think religion or an organization which rules a person's thoughts and conduct picture a "king" that they want instead of obeying The Holy Spirit which reflects onto us LOVE; God.
They reject the Holy Spirit as King over them.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
Pegg used the following scripture: Philippians 3:10, 11
10 My aim is to know him and the power of his resurrection+ and to share in his sufferings,+ submitting myself to a death like his,+ 11 to see if at all possible I may attain to the earlier resurrection from the dead.
Upon reading that part, "to see if at all possible I may attain to the earlier resurrection from the dead", how hard is it to understand that what makes that resurrection unique is that it is earlier than the resurrection of the remainder of the harvest to God? Do we need to add other thoughts to it?
Added: My point is not that I agree it is earlier, per say, but in their explanations of that verse they go onto to manufacture other reasons for that resurrection of the "set apart ones" being special in addition to what they have the verse saying.
10 My aim is to know him and the power of his resurrection+ and to share in his sufferings,+ submitting myself to a death like his,+ 11 to see if at all possible I may attain to the earlier resurrection from the dead.
Upon reading that part, "to see if at all possible I may attain to the earlier resurrection from the dead", how hard is it to understand that what makes that resurrection unique is that it is earlier than the resurrection of the remainder of the harvest to God? Do we need to add other thoughts to it?
Added: My point is not that I agree it is earlier, per say, but in their explanations of that verse they go onto to manufacture other reasons for that resurrection of the "set apart ones" being special in addition to what they have the verse saying.
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Mountain_Climber
Active Member
They have so many different views among them it gets hard to tell. LOL
That is a very good assessment.
Thank you for that!
In fact, that is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses have made their GB. You are right. I never looked at that way before. They have them ruling as kings already in the flesh!
1 Corinthians 4:8 "Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you."
Thank you.
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Mountain_Climber
Active Member
savage wind, what is your take on the way they have translated that using the words, "earlier resurrection"?
I am seeing something else revealed when the entire context surrounding Philippians 3:11 is taken into consideration. It seems that what makes it first is that it is that sharing directly in Christ's death and in his rising again. At least that is my take on the context.
Do you see that or am I alone in seeing that?
I am seeing something else revealed when the entire context surrounding Philippians 3:11 is taken into consideration. It seems that what makes it first is that it is that sharing directly in Christ's death and in his rising again. At least that is my take on the context.
Do you see that or am I alone in seeing that?
He is writing about his wish to "gain Christ" (vs. 8). What does it mean? He already has Jesus as his Lord. If he didn't he could not write scripture inspired of God. It might mean he wishes to gain his own anointing which will happen at the end of him if he "endures to the end".
There is a problem with the translation.
τὴν
ἐξανάστασιν
τὴν
The first τὴν is translated "the" but the second one which is the same word is translated "from".
the resurrection the _______ dead. What is the missing word? That is what I hear the contention involves.
ἐκ This word. Ask someone who knows ancient Greek I think.
It is translated other places as 'out of', 'through', 'from', 'of', 'by', 'unto them on' , 'at', 'in', 'from among', 'by means', 'have of', 'on', 'earthly', 'as a result', 'since', 'with', OK! It is a good thing for me that I do care what it says.
It is a proposition I think. Where is "earlier" in all that? Early is an adjective or an adverb. ἐκ is not an adjective . Do I have the right word? Do I have the right scripture?
Greek Concordance: ἐκ (ek) -- 685 Occurrences
There is a problem with the translation.
τὴν
ἐξανάστασιν
τὴν
The first τὴν is translated "the" but the second one which is the same word is translated "from".
the resurrection the _______ dead. What is the missing word? That is what I hear the contention involves.
ἐκ This word. Ask someone who knows ancient Greek I think.
It is translated other places as 'out of', 'through', 'from', 'of', 'by', 'unto them on'
, 'at', 'in', 'from among', 'by means', 'have of', 'on', 'earthly', 'as a result', 'since', 'with', OK! It is a good thing for me that I do care what it says.It is a proposition I think. Where is "earlier" in all that? Early is an adjective or an adverb. ἐκ is not an adjective . Do I have the right word? Do I have the right scripture?
Greek Concordance: ἐκ (ek) -- 685 Occurrences
10 My aim is to know him and the power of his resurrection+ and to share in his sufferings,+ submitting myself to a death like his,+11 to see if at all possible I may attain to the earlier resurrection from the dead.+ That is the NWT
And this is what was found.
1487 εἴ
4459 πως
2658 καταντήσω
1519 εἰς
3588 τὴν
1815 ἐξανάστασιν
3588 τὴν
1537 ἐκ
3498 νεκρῶν
if
by any means
I might attain
to
the
resurrection
from
out of
dead
Because the word dead used is related to the word corpse which is physical, then the phrase is about his physical resurrection and not his spiritual resurrection.
Strong's Greek: 3498. νεκρός (nekros) -- dead
Sometimes I get why the society adds a word or a phrase or changes something but this time I have no clue.
And this is what was found.
1487 εἴ
4459 πως
2658 καταντήσω
1519 εἰς
3588 τὴν
1815 ἐξανάστασιν
3588 τὴν
1537 ἐκ
3498 νεκρῶν
if
by any means
I might attain
to
the
resurrection
from
out of
dead
Because the word dead used is related to the word corpse which is physical, then the phrase is about his physical resurrection and not his spiritual resurrection.
Strong's Greek: 3498. νεκρός (nekros) -- dead
Sometimes I get why the society adds a word or a phrase or changes something but this time I have no clue.
Something else is interesting about it. The word ἐξανάστασιν has just one entry in scripture. Greek Concordance: ἐξανάστασιν (exanastasin) -- 1 Occurrence
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
I am sorry @katiemygirl I am bailing out of this thread again. If you want my reply please go ahead and PM me. I made it possible for me to receive it again. (I was admitably not very gracious about a post where I was purposely unread, and it took a little while to let it pass by.)
Paul knows Jesus parable about the sheep and the goats. So he knows his being on the way to God's blessing is dependent on his being kind to the least of Jesus' family. The least of Jesus family will be among the dead. JWs know about blood guilt.
Blood guilt is able to prevent resurrection. So he is saying that he strives to be able to get free of the dead.
Blood guilt is able to prevent resurrection. So he is saying that he strives to be able to get free of the dead.
Nada
#
No worries Katie,it's all good.
Ok, let us start with your first Q:Those anointed (from the 1st century) were chosen while alive.They received the word and became baptized in water.They then received holy spirit, as promised,at the Pentecost of 33.C.E., and later died faithful.Their promise is the heavenly gift.
There are also others who will be sealed, not of this 1st century group of anointed ones.These are chosen ones from the past,after these, and present time,here on earth.So, this number of 144,000 has to be filled first,then the end will come.This is where it speaks about them being taken up in the air.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
In verse 15,when Paul says "we",he does not mean those he is speaking to in the first century only.He is referring to the entire anointed class.This includes all who will be chosen from the time of the Pentecost of 33 C.E.,until the coming of the Lord,which can be also be confirmed in verse 15.
"who are left until the coming of the Lord,"
From these passages we can clearly see that it cannot be speaking of the time in the first century only.It is speaking of the future.The coming of the Lord takes place in a future setting.
So, if Paul says there will be some left until the coming of the Lord,then that means there will be anointed ones, living on earth, up to the very end.
Matthew 24:3-37. While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
- 1 Thessalonians 4:16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.
There is an order.
1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.…
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
Yes, you are right. My system scans for all verses that contain whatever Strong's number i place into it and it only brings up that one at Philippians 3:11 for G1815.
That is fascinating.
I have found many scriptures where some words have only the one entry. It is fascinating!
It is more difficult to discern meaning when there is no comparison scripture (where the same word is found).
It is more difficult to discern meaning when there is no comparison scripture (where the same word is found).