Killing in War - Ok or Not?

[McBell]

That's amazing. I can somehow provide the definition, quote the definition, and expound upon the definition, in the context of my argument- all while ignoring it.

And I'm the dishonest one here? That is sad. Cheer up and move on.

Please be so kind as to present the post number where you included the definition of the word "lie".

 

[JayJayDee]

Those soldiers would have laughed at your absurd thinking.

If they had been trained as Christians instead of Catholics they would not have laughed at all. They would not be in the military to begin with. A Christian cannot even train to kill.

So, are you saying that taking a stand on violence and bloodshed as a follower of Christ is absurd? Absurd to whom?

No Christian can be a patriot....we are citizens of God's kingdom, which means we have no sanction to fight for any earthly kingdom....just as Jesus said "my kingdom is not of this world".

Being 'friends of the world make us enemies of God'.....this is what the priests failed to teach. (James 4:4)

They were better off just hearing the Gospel preached to them so they could enjoy the freedom to make the choice for themselves, rather than listening to a JW who is biasedly anti-Catholic rant his propaganda in the name of 'Christianity'.

That response is probably what I have come to expect from those who want to justify the unforgivable. The soldiers all had the freedom to make "the choice" but the church did not give them any.
They preached them into the conflicts, not out of them.

The Catholic hierarchy in Germany were complicit in the murder of their own 'brothers' on the battlefield....as were those on the opposing side....so whose side was God supporting? (Isa 1:15)

Would Christ want the sacraments given to murderers?
Taking innocent lives makes one a murderer. Tell me what war does not involve the death of innocents? How many innocents were murdered in the Nazi death camps? How many innocents died in allied bombing raids? Every one of them will require an accounting. God does not give any human permission or sanction to kill innocents as if they were mere collateral damage in accomplishing some human agenda. Human wars are seldom fought for the common good of anyone.

BTW...I am not a "he".

 

[Sleeppy]

You will have to at the very least reveal the name of this thread you created.
I have searched your created threads clear back to December 25th and have not been able to find it.

Kill, Or Be Killed

 

[Sleeppy]

Please be so kind as to present the post number where you included the definition of the word "lie".

Bottom of page 7.

 

[McBell]

Bottom of page 7.

Like I said, you ignore the definition of the word "lie".

More specifically, you ignore the definition that shows the deception with the swords is in fact a lie.
Which would indicate one of two things:

1. Jesus had no problems with using the swords to perpetuate a lie
2. The swords held some purpose other than what you claim them for
3. a combination of 1 and 2​

 

[McBell]

If they had been trained as Christians instead of Catholics they would not have laughed at all. They would not be in the military to begin with. A Christian cannot even train to kill.

So, are you saying that taking a stand on violence and bloodshed as a follower of Christ is absurd? Absurd to whom?

No Christian can be a patriot....we are citizens of God's kingdom, which means we have no sanction to fight for any earthly kingdom....just as Jesus said "my kingdom is not of this world".

Being 'friends of the world make us enemies of God'.....this is what the priests failed to teach. (James 4:4)



That response is probably what I have come to expect from those who want to justify the unforgivable. The soldiers all had the freedom to make "the choice" but the church did not give them any.
They preached them into the conflicts, not out of them.

The Catholic hierarchy in Germany were complicit in the murder of their own 'brothers' on the battlefield....as were those on the opposing side....so whose side was God supporting? (Isa 1:15)

Would Christ want the sacraments given to murderers?
Taking innocent lives makes one a murderer. Tell me what war does not involve the death of innocents? How many innocents were murdered in the Nazi death camps? How many innocents died in allied bombing raids? Every one of them will require an accounting. God does not give any human permission or sanction to kill innocents as if they were mere collateral damage in accomplishing some human agenda. Human wars are seldom fought for the common good of anyone.

BTW...I am not a "he".

Interesting how you claim your god holds humans to a higher standard than he holds himself.

 

[JayJayDee]

Interesting how you claim your god holds humans to a higher standard than he holds himself.

That is your opinion Mestemia. God does not have to answer to anyone, not even you. You don't have to like him...he doesn't force you to do anything.

The Creator gave life and he can take it away. He alone has that right. It is man's misconception of his motive and actions that creates problems....a bit like an ant contending with an astrophysicist over the reasons why his place in the universe is so insignificant. No matter how much the ant might complain...he will always lose the argument through lack of ability to comprehend the answer. His place is his place...it is never going to get better so he must learn to get over it or spend the whole of his existence in miserable contempt.

What creates cynicism? Tragedy or disappointment, usually.
Those who live in a constant state of disappointment with their lot in life have little to celebrate. But those who learn to rise above the bad things that happen to them can still enjoy what is left to them. We have choices, no matter how awful our circumstances or the events that led us to become discontent and miserable in the first place. Its all in our attitude. No matter how bad things are...there are always many who are worse off. What good does whining do? It just brings everyone else down. Not exactly preferred company.

 

[McBell]

That is your opinion Mestemia.

My opinion?
It is your claim, not mine.

God does not have to answer to anyone, not even you.

Says you.
I hold to a different opinion.
Now since your god has not been able to do anything on his own since Biblical times....

The Creator gave life and he can take it away.

Again, I disagree.
If your god cannot even be held to his own standards, can he even be called god?

He alone has that right.

No he doesn't.

It is man's misconception of his motive and actions that creates problems....a bit like an ant contending with an astrophysicist over the reasons why his place in the universe is so insignificant. No matter how much the ant might complain...he will always lose the argument through lack of ability to comprehend the answer. His place is his place...it is never going to get better so he must learn to get over it or spend the whole of his existence in miserable contempt.

I do not give your god the same free pass you do.
Again, if he cannot even be held to his own standards....

What creates cynicism? Tragedy or disappointment, usually.
Those who live in a constant state of disappointment with their lot in life have little to celebrate. But those who learn to rise above the bad things that happen to them can still enjoy what is left to them. We have choices, no matter how awful our circumstances or the events that led us to become discontent and miserable in the first place. Its all in our attitude. No matter how bad things are...there are always many who are worse off. What good does whining do? It just brings everyone else down. Not exactly preferred company.

Please be so kind as to let me know when you get done out there in left field.

 

[Kolibri]

The two swords were also already in possession. Why hadn't Jesus noticed his friends were carrying them, before he instructed them to?

The fact that two swords were available among the disciples on the night of Jesus’ betrayal was not unusual for those times (Lu 22:38), and there is evidence that for Galileans in particular it was not uncommon to carry arms. (See The Jewish War, by F. Josephus, III, 42 [iii, 2].)

As to why Jesus did not know they already had a couple swords available, the account is silent. Having the swords along though did provide an opportunity to use them in an object lesson as we have discussed already.

 

[Kolibri]

I do not give your god the same free pass you do.
Again, if he cannot even be held to his own standards....

Oh the depth of God's riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable out his judgements are and beyond tracing out his ways are! For "who has come to know Jehovah's mind, or who has become his adviser? - Romans 11:33,34

Who as taken the measurements of (or possibly, "has comprehended.") the spirit of Jehovah,
And who can instruct him as his adviser?
- Isaiah 40:13

While these scriptures can not self-validate they provide the thought that Jehovah has broadness of comprehension of matters that we do not.
We may not have all the facts so we can not say that he is violating his own standards. And his limits for men are different than his limits for himself. His standard of Justice do not change, but he withholds the right to exact vengeance from us. Only he can see things from every angle. (Isa 29:16; Ro 12:19)

 

[JayJayDee]

My opinion?
It is your claim, not mine.

I don't recall making a claim. You have though.

Says you.
I hold to a different opinion.
Now since your god has not been able to do anything on his own since Biblical times....

Well that is where the perception problem comes into play. God has actually done quite a bit since the scriptures were written. He is not confined to earth time so I guess those with blinkers on may not see much. I see a lot.

Again, I disagree.
If your god cannot even be held to his own standards, can he even be called god?

If you say so...it must be true. You are free to disagree all you wish...God allows you to make up your own mind about him...either way.

No he doesn't.

LOL....according to you, he doesn't exist so that statement is kind of moot.

I do not give your god the same free pass you do.
Again, if he cannot even be held to his own standards....

I don't know what standards you think he is failing to uphold?

Please be so kind as to let me know when you get done out there in left field.

Just relaying what drives the 'misery gutses' of the world is all.

No one is born miserable or cynical....but it amazes me how much they want to share their negativity with others.

 

[the_sign_of_TSOMIH]

The war was predicted...prophesied...foretold...NOT heaven sent.

Then the 'Jehovah' YOU serve is the father of lies because God, Our Father Who art in Heaven, is the cause of all things. You claim to be a Jehovah's Witness but only give testimony of the devil.

 

[Kolibri]

You do not know JayJayDee personally. How can you make this claim that there is no goodness within her? Even if our form of worship was incorrect, who are you to judge a particular person with the same severity as Jesus did when addressing the Pharasees and Saducees? Can you read the heart of another man? Can you search their innermost thoughts and know their loves and their hates or their personal code of honesty?

 

[JayJayDee]

And this is what you call a rebuttal? Seriously mate, when you are reduced to spiteful and somewhat childish personal insults its a fair indicator that you are without any solid defence. You cannot defend your church's stance or history on the issue of war, can you?

Nothing I stated was untrue.....was it? Be honest.

 

[Sleeppy]

Like I said, you ignore the definition of the word "lie".

More specifically, you ignore the definition that shows the deception with the swords is in fact a lie.
Which would indicate one of two things:

1. Jesus had no problems with using the swords to perpetuate a lie
2. The swords held some purpose other than what you claim them for
3. a combination of 1 and 2​

Here's the thing:

1) The sword carriers presented no "false statements." The swords themselves are not necessarily offensive/violent statements.

2) The observers must presume that the swords are to be used offensively/violently.

3) The sword carriers chief intent is to discourage confrontation, not to engage in confrontation as the observers falsely presume.

4) The chief intent of the sword carriers is withheld (really only from those not privy to the previous several years of Jesus' ministry, and his final intention to be crucified, martyred, imprisoned etc. along with these sword carriers).

Therefore the lie originates with the presumption of the observers, not the sword carriers. Due to #4, they do however qualify for deceit. And in this case deceit ≠ lie.

Any other interpretation is your right, but completely unfounded.

 

[the_sign_of_TSOMIH]

If it wasn't for the support of the churches, the military could never have carried out the slaughter that took place.

What Christ actually taught concerning what you are trying to say here, at best, is that such scandals do come into the world. Christ said, "It must needs be that scandals come into the world, but woe to him by whom that scandal cometh." Whether it was one party or another will be made manifest for prophecy also has it, "The wicked shall prove wicked" and "The wise shall shine like the stars of heaven". We, and here again, at best, can only hear the Word of God and keep it. Any decision and/or choices that come our way we then know that they have come from the One Who sent Jesus, the Word, into the world.

Christ said there would be signs in the heavens and the earth, yet you scoff that one is occurring in your midst.

Christ said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. You say otherwise.

Your problem is one of unity. You don't recognize One God, One Faith, One Religion, nor One Church. You then use the term 'churches' and proceed to throw out the baby with the bath water.

 

[McBell]

I don't recall making a claim. You have though.

What claim do you claim I have made?

Well that is where the perception problem comes into play. God has actually done quite a bit since the scriptures were written. He is not confined to earth time so I guess those with blinkers on may not see much. I see a lot.

Bold empty claims will not help you with those not in your choir.

I am not in your choir.

If you say so...it must be true. You are free to disagree all you wish...God allows you to make up your own mind about him...either way.

I was unaware I needed your permission...

LOL....according to you, he doesn't exist so that statement is kind of moot.

Strawman.
I never made any such claim.

I don't know what standards you think he is failing to uphold?

His own.
Perhaps you should pay better attention to what you are replying to?

Just relaying what drives the 'misery gutses' of the world is all.

No one is born miserable or cynical....but it amazes me how much they want to share their negativity with others.

It amazes me you are unable to comprehend that some people are not in need of your favoured deity to live happy healthy moral lives.

 

[McBell]

Here's the thing:

1) The sword carriers presented no "false statements." The swords themselves are not necessarily offensive/violent statements.

2) The observers must presume that the swords are to be used offensively/violently.

3) The sword carriers chief intent is to discourage confrontation, not to engage in confrontation as the observers falsely presume.

4) The chief intent of the sword carriers is withheld (really only from those not privy to the previous several years of Jesus' ministry, and his final intention to be crucified, martyred, imprisoned etc. along with these sword carriers).

Therefore the lie originates with the presumption of the observers, not the sword carriers. Due to #4, they do however qualify for deceit. And in this case deceit ≠ lie.

Any other interpretation is your right, but completely unfounded.

you have presented all manner of impressive mental gymnastics in order to protect your box.

I, however, have presented my point.
Your ignoring the point in order to protect your box is your problem, not mine.

 

[the_sign_of_TSOMIH]

Inaction also speaks volumes,

So why can't you preach the Gospel? Merely Catholic bashing doesn't constitute preaching. The duties of a priest are not as easy as you think they are. Admitting to inaction about particulars is what you aggrandize. You make no mention of the good he did because of your predisposition.

You show some clergy saluting (rendering unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's), but you don't give credit for their rendering unto God.

The Prayer of St. Francis will serve you well if you'll tear yourself away from all those bashing websites and say it from your heart.

 

[the_sign_of_TSOMIH]

If they had been trained as Christians instead of Catholics they would not have laughed at all.

There you go with your magic word again. Better put on your pointed hat, grab your wand, straddle your broom and fly away into magic land.

The word "Christian" was first applied from those seeing the love of Christ's disciples from an external standpoint. One didn't have to know of Christ's teaching to see this. But as the early Bible (Canon) was being compiled, it included letters addressing the coming of antichrist. So a difficulty arose in that even those antichrists could be called 'Christian', as the word "Christ" appears in their description. To avoid confusion, St. Ignatius of Antioch penned the word "Catholic" to indicate all the teachings of Christ, rather than only those things associated with an external perspective. St. Ignatius of Antioch is the child whom Jesus lifted when he said, "Hinder not the children to come unto Me." He later became a bishop.

So a Catholic can understand those 'secrets' of which Christ spoke outside of the parables, but the Catholic Church makes them known to all in the preaching of the Gospels verbatim. There is also the centuries of hand copying the Holy Bible that we could have it today, done by Catholic monks at whose hands you spit your viperous venom.

There is another saying, "never bite the hand that feeds you".