Do christians go straight to heaven upon their deaths?

[sincerly]

clouds hid things , airplanes can be said to disappear into the clouds, so that they are no longer visible.
do you agree ?

I agree that "Clouds do hide things". Clouds, also, accompany things.
Rev.1:7, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

Matt,16:27, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

That is why there will be "silence in heaven" Rev.8:1, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

When each of the "Sevens" are completed time is declared to "be no more" and Jesus will come "Quickly".

 

[cataway]

I agree that "Clouds do hide things". Clouds, also, accompany things.
Rev.1:7, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

Matt,16:27, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

That is why there will be "silence in heaven" Rev.8:1, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

When each of the "Sevens" are completed time is declared to "be no more" and Jesus will come "Quickly".

cometh with the clouds means you will not see him yet because of the things that will be happening you will know he is there

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
I agree that "Clouds do hide things". Clouds, also, accompany things.
Rev.1:7, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

Matt,16:27, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

That is why there will be "silence in heaven" Rev.8:1, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

When each of the "Sevens" are completed time is declared to "be no more" and Jesus will come "Quickly".
Click to expand...

cometh with the clouds means you will not see him yet because of the things that will be happening you will know he is there

cataway, when Jesus returns 2Thess.2:8 says that the brightness of HIS coming will slay the living wicked. Therefore, nothing will prevent one from "seeing that return."
"""And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

 

[cataway]

sincerly said: ↑
I agree that "Clouds do hide things". Clouds, also, accompany things.
Rev.1:7, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

Matt,16:27, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

That is why there will be "silence in heaven" Rev.8:1, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

When each of the "Sevens" are completed time is declared to "be no more" and Jesus will come "Quickly".
Click to expand...



cataway, when Jesus returns 2Thess.2:8 says that the brightness of HIS coming will slay the living wicked. Therefore, nothing will prevent one from "seeing that return."
"""And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

I do understand what your saying how ever your thoughts also suggest he would be seen only in one spot . that's not the way it will be . the whole earth will understand whats happening .

 

[sincerly]

I do understand what your saying how ever your thoughts also suggest he would be seen only in one spot . that's not the way it will be . the whole earth will understand whats happening .

How can "every eye shall see Him" be construed to be "only in one spot"?

 

[GreenKepi]

GK, There is no burning "hell" at this time and the "holding area" is the same as it has been since the first person died---the grave/pit/etc.
The parable of "Abraham's Bosom/paradise" isn't factual/a true "place".
However, the Scriptures do indicate that the redeemed will have much in which to be joyously active.

Except for the KJV...where do you even find the concept of Hell? I cannot find it. Please show me. Also, can you show me your Scripture where you believe that Abraham's Bosom is not a "factual" place? Thanks....

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
GK, There is no burning "hell" at this time and the "holding area" is the same as it has been since the first person died---the grave/pit/etc.
The parable of "Abraham's Bosom/paradise" isn't factual/a true "place".
However, the Scriptures do indicate that the redeemed will have much in which to be joyously active.

Except for the KJV...where do you even find the concept of Hell? I cannot find it. Please show me. Also, can you show me your Scripture where you believe that Abraham's Bosom is not a "factual" place? Thanks....

GK, In the OT---the Hebrew word "she'owl" is translated into English 65 times. 31 times of those it is translated as "hell"; 31 times it is translated "grave" and 3 times as "pit".
See how it is translated in your Bible.with these references: Deut.32:32; 2Sam.22:6 Job 11:8; 26:6; Ps. 9:17.

None refer to death being equated to "Abraham's bosom".

If you are looking for a "concept" of a literal burning place for the destruction of the wicked" it isn't the grave or where the dead are presently.
There is coming a time when the wicked/ unrepentant disobedient sinners will be destroyed, but that will not be for awhile longer/as long as time lasts. Then this earth and heaven will be destroyed by fire and GOD will make heaven and earth new.

Abraham will be resurrected along with the "Redeemed" and his "bosom" wasn't ever stated to be the literal paradise---that was a parable.

 

[GreenKepi]

sincerly said: ↑
GK, There is no burning "hell" at this time and the "holding area" is the same as it has been since the first person died---the grave/pit/etc.
The parable of "Abraham's Bosom/paradise" isn't factual/a true "place".
However, the Scriptures do indicate that the redeemed will have much in which to be joyously active.



GK, In the OT---the Hebrew word "she'owl" is translated into English 65 times. 31 times of those it is translated as "hell"; 31 times it is translated "grave" and 3 times as "pit".
See how it is translated in your Bible.with these references: Deut.32:32; 2Sam.22:6 Job 11:8; 26:6; Ps. 9:17.

None refer to death being equated to "Abraham's bosom".

If you are looking for a "concept" of a literal burning place for the destruction of the wicked" it isn't the grave or where the dead are presently.
There is coming a time when the wicked/ unrepentant disobedient sinners will be destroyed, but that will not be for awhile longer/as long as time lasts. Then this earth and heaven will be destroyed by fire and GOD will make heaven and earth new.

Abraham will be resurrected along with the "Redeemed" and his "bosom" wasn't ever stated to be the literal paradise---that was a parable.

It appears that we agree on many things; except, Abraham's Bosom. Jesus Himself told about a place called “Abraham's Side”. Luke 16:22 - And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried.

The old Jews believed the righteous who die for their faith are received by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in paradise.

I agree about the word “Sheol”. And how the KJV slaughters the same word all those times.

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
sincerly said: ↑
GK, There is no burning "hell" at this time and the "holding area" is the same as it has been since the first person died---the grave/pit/etc.
The parable of "Abraham's Bosom/paradise" isn't factual/a true "place".
However, the Scriptures do indicate that the redeemed will have much in which to be joyously active.



GK, In the OT---the Hebrew word "she'owl" is translated into English 65 times. 31 times of those it is translated as "hell"; 31 times it is translated "grave" and 3 times as "pit".
See how it is translated in your Bible.with these references: Deut.32:32; 2Sam.22:6 Job 11:8; 26:6; Ps. 9:17.

None refer to death being equated to "Abraham's bosom".

If you are looking for a "concept" of a literal burning place for the destruction of the wicked" it isn't the grave or where the dead are presently.
There is coming a time when the wicked/ unrepentant disobedient sinners will be destroyed, but that will not be for awhile longer/as long as time lasts. Then this earth and heaven will be destroyed by fire and GOD will make heaven and earth new.

Abraham will be resurrected along with the "Redeemed" and his "bosom" wasn't ever stated to be the literal paradise---that was a parable.
Click to expand...

It appears that we agree on many things; except, Abraham's Bosom. Jesus Himself told about a place called “Abraham's Side”. Luke 16:22 - And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried.

The old Jews believed the righteous who die for their faith are received by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in paradise.

I agree about the word “Sheol”. And how the KJV slaughters the same word all those times.

GK, The parable of the Rich man and Lazarus is Luke 16:19-31. Now look back at verses 1-13 where the subject is another "certain rich man". Both parables are about the use of money( what one has been intrusted with).
The steward wasted the Master's goods, but was commended for utilizing his wrong doing to make it easy for himself in a world of unrighteousness.
A wise steward's reward is in the obedience to his stewardship---much more is gained by being trust-worthy.
The Pharisees interrupted the comparison of the two principles by their covetousness---at this point look at Prov.3:9, "Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:"
The Children of Israel had been intrusted with giving GOD'S Message to the world. Their history was in not applying it to themselves and thwarting others from entering.
Now look at Matt.8:10-12, and what Jesus said about Abraham and the kingdom of heaven. "When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

It is the "Rich man" that isn't wisely using his "wealth" in the parable under question. Notice what Lazarus is asking, vss.27-31,"
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Do you see that this parable is concerning the use of the knowledge/instructions which has been give and while one is still alive. The Salvational material has already been presented in the Scriptures and Jesus Christ's resurrection will not change anyone's mind who doesn't believe the Writings of Moses and the Sacrificial system--- pointing the Jesus---promised from before the foundation of the world.

 

[Nada]

No.They do not.

 

[moorea944]

[It appears that we agree on many things; except, Abraham's Bosom. Jesus Himself told about a place called "Abraham's Side". Luke 16:22 - And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried.]

That is not real, it is a parable.

[The old Jews believed the righteous who die for their faith are received by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in paradise.]

No they didnt. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are dead. They are in the grave. They will not come alive again until Christ returns and raises them from the dead. Paradise in Greek is a garden. Jesus refers to this many times in scripture, esp. at his death. It is talking about the old garden of Eden restored. The kingdom age when everything is made new again. An "Eden like" newness.

 

[Yes]

[It appears that we agree on many things; except, Abraham's Bosom. Jesus Himself told about a place called "Abraham's Side". Luke 16:22 - And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried.]

That is not real, it is a parable.

Parables are about real things.

[The old Jews believed the righteous who die for their faith are received by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in paradise.]

No they didnt. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are dead. They are in the grave. They will not come alive again until Christ returns and raises them from the dead. Paradise in Greek is a garden. Jesus refers to this many times in scripture, esp. at his death. It is talking about the old garden of Eden restored. The kingdom age when everything is made new again. An "Eden like" newness.

Jesus actually demonstrated to Peter, James, and John that the saints of the Old Covenant are alive when he spoke with Moses and Elijah on the mountain of transfiguration. Read about the transfiguration here:


Mark 9:2-6


The Transfiguration


2After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.


5Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 6(He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)

 

[moorea944]

Parables are about real things.



Jesus actually demonstrated to Peter, James, and John that the saints of the Old Covenant are alive when he spoke with Moses and Elijah on the mountain of transfiguration. Read about the transfiguration here:


Mark 9:2-6


The Transfiguration


2After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.


5Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 6(He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)

That was only just a vision. Jesus was telling them a story and making a point. But it was done in a vision.

 

[Yes]

That was only just a vision. Jesus was telling them a story and making a point. But it was done in a vision.

Denominations that believe in soul sleep, they teach that Peter, James, and John saw merely a “vision” when Elijah and Moses were speaking to Jesus, and that it was not really Elijah and Moses.

They treat the word vision as if it means illusion, or mirage. Some Bible translations do not even use the word “vision”, even if all translations used the word “vision,” that would not change the scriptures to say what soul sleep believers are trying to have us believe. They need to study about what the definitions of vision are. I guess those denominations also believe that it is merely a vision when Jesus transfigured. Jesus’ clothes became a dazzling white, whiter than anyone could bleach them. I call the soul sleep belief "the doctrine of death." They do not believe in the life of the spirit that Jesus gives to those he saves.

 

[Muffled]

The chapter is about resurrection of the dead and the living when Christ returns to earth. Our "english" bibles have it translated wrong. They have it, "in the clouds and in the air". In greek, it should be "in clouds and in air". Big difference. People think that is their "rapture", that we actually go and meet Christ in the air to be with him forever.

Notice that those verses dont have heaven in them. But were is Christ going to be? He is coming back to earth. It is a symbollic verse. Clouds in scripture represent a mulitude of people. In most cases it is Christ and the saints (or believers). Air represents government. The verse is telling us that the risen dead will be with the living to meet Christ for judgement where he will be. Which will be on earth, not in heaven or in the air. He will be with his people and will create a new government of righteousness and truth.

Plus, "caught up" is translated wrong.
CAUGHT UP - Gr. harpazo - To snatch, To seize, To take hold of forcibly
Never does it mention "Up' or in any direction. And unfortunelty, now people have created a rapture or going up somewhere that is not even biblical.
Paul is telling people that we will be with the Lord when he comes back. On earth.

I believe clouds actually mean clouds unless there is supporting evidence otherwise. Also in the air means not on the earth because we are always in air on earth but we are not up in the air which makes the difference.

If we say "snatched" I believe it has to be from somewhere to somewhere and the to somewhere is the clouds so "caught up" is relevant from the context.

 

[Muffled]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This.

I believe it doesn't change the meaning a bit, so the argument doesn't hold water.

 

[Muffled]

You can find out for yourself, but you will have to get Jesus' teachings and obey them. Otherwise, you are only giving your worthless opinions. Go get some knowledge and experience and obey Jesus.

I believe I obey Jesus and I know what is revealed to me. If there is someone who thinks it is otherwise I believe that person has not had things revealed to them.

 

[moorea944]

I believe clouds actually mean clouds unless there is supporting evidence otherwise. Also in the air means not on the earth because we are always in air on earth but we are not up in the air which makes the difference.

If we say "snatched" I believe it has to be from somewhere to somewhere and the to somewhere is the clouds so "caught up" is relevant from the context.

Actually it's not. I'll explain. Christ is not going to be in the air hovering. He will be on earth, where we will go and meet him. There are so many terms of symbollic clouds meaning a multitude of people, either saints or angels. In Greek, it doesnt say, "in the air". It says "in air' and 'in clouds". Not "in the". We are not snatched up, we are taken to Christ, which is earth.

 

[JM2C]

John 5:28-30 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice [29] and come out---those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. [30] By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

It is common to say "This person has gone to be with the Lord", "He is looking at us from heaven now". But according to this verse, that is not so. Those who have believed in Christ and been baptized in His name for the remission of their sins, when they die, stay in their graves until Jesus returns. I recently heard Pat Robertson say that a person's spirit goes to heaven, but they are reunited with their body at the resurrection. As I understand it here, the dead will here his voice. I believe their spirit, not their bodies, hear his voice, but I could be wrong on that.
However, why have the final judgement, if everyone is already in heaven or hell?

Do you believe we are sent to our ultimate destinaton upon our death or at judgement day?

Thank you.

2Co 5:6 Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord

 

[jeager106]

Actually it's not. I'll explain. Christ is not going to be in the air hovering. He will be on earth, where we will go and meet him. There are so many terms of symbollic clouds meaning a multitude of people, either saints or angels. In Greek, it doesnt say, "in the air". It says "in air' and 'in clouds". Not "in the". We are not snatched up, we are taken to Christ, which is earth.

The Bible must be taken as a whole. If there is incongruity then something is wrong so start searching for meaning that matches meaning.
Adam and Eve were told by God to "subdue the earth and make of it a paradise of pleasure" and "be fruitful and multiply".
Well they were fruitful and mutilplied but blew the paradise part.
God's intention for mankind was to have humans on earth as stewards of out home planet, to "do" something wonderful with it.
This was never done.
Why then do so many Christains think that upon death we go floating off "some where else" or to be condemned to a hellfire of etnernal punishment that brings NO glory to God.
People living a righteous life, being good stewards of our world, loving one another, being great parents, living in the footsteps of Christ, brings glory to God.
Floating off in the clouds is simply out of harmony with the theme of the Bible.
Going to heaven or being condemned to hell is a MANKIND notion, that satisfies some emotional need.