Ask me about the Third Reich, National Socialism, Hitler & the Holocaust

[Nietzsche]

Thanks, but that is not exactly what I was asking.

What do you expect would have happened if Hitler was never born, or never developed an intereste in politics? How much of the Nazi movement is a direct consequence of his personality, and how much was the Zeistgeist? What are the odds that a similar character would have taken his place? How similar, and to what consequences?

While the Nazi Party was around before Hitler joined it(he was, I think, the 19th member? 21st?), it was still in its embryonic stages. You could see the beginnings, but it was Hitler's charisma and his ability to orate that lead him to be the head of the movement, and because it had always been obsessed with the "Leader Principle", whoever was seen as the highest party member dictated what the Will of the Party was.

As for a never-born Hitler or a less successful one(say, the German government deporting him back to Austria after his failed Putsch), you would've likely have seen a generic Military-Authoritarian state. It would still have sought Anschluss with Austria, and it would have still wanted to regain the eastern & western territories it lost to Poland, France & Belgium at Versailles, but I sincerely doubt there would have been a holocaust.

Antisemitism was prevalent through out all of Europe at the time, but there is a mighty big difference between "I hate Jews" and "Let's kill all the Jews".

Sure. While currently Hitler is universally reviled, it took a long time for people (not only in Germany) to realize that he must be stopped.

As of 1944, even his own high military command basically had to conspire to kill him.

For the military, it was simply cultural inertia. The German Army was formed from the nucleus of the Prussian one, where free-thinking was encouraged but orders were meant to be followed to the best of your ability. Von Manstein, when asked by von Tresckow if he would join the plotters, responded "Prussian Field Marshals do not mutiny".

Hitler abused that mindset to his own ends.

As for the people, most find this hard to believe but the ordinary German didn't have much inkling of the Holocaust. Concentration Camps were initially just that, camps to put undesirable people. A place to put trouble-makers & political dissidents and other enemies of the state. They might be worked to death, but it was never for the purpose of destroying an entire people. And even if the average German did find out, the Gestapo's reach was almost infinite. They were one of, perhaps the best Secret Police in history. People worried for their lives and the lives of their loved ones.

But how notable was the Nazi regime for the time, anyway? How early did the signs that this wasn't just another relatively acceptable nationalistic regime come, and how clearly? How clear is that even today?

At the time it wasn't clear. At the time people saw Hitler as Germany's Mussolini. Nothing more or less. If anything, they saw him as an extremely useful individual. Britain was lenient with Germany regarding rearmament because they wanted a German Shepard to stand guard against the Bolsheviks. A powerful Germany to keep the Soviets out of Central & Western Europe.

 

[metis]

I was a Christian when I walked into Auschwitz, I came out an atheist. I adopted the Germanic Gods later out of my love for Germanic culture, and because it is the only way I can reconcile a higher power with what happened there.

One of my friends who was a survivor of Auschwitz came out much the same way in regards to Judaism. He was 80 lbs. when liberated and was hospitalized for 9 months. His main point, which I vividly remember, was "How could God allow this to happen?".

 

[Riverwolf]

The most recent Wolfenstein game actually depicts the Nazi mentality surprisingly well, I have to say. But too few people grasp the magnitude of what was being done, and in a way I think that's a good thing. When you truly understand what happened, when you've seen the ashes of what used to be people, it's hard to find any light in the world.

I was a Christian when I walked into Auschwitz, I came out an atheist. I adopted the Germanic Gods later out of my love for Germanic culture, and because it is the only way I can reconcile a higher power with what happened there.

Understandable. It's kind of the same with me.

 

[metis]

As for a never-born Hitler or a less successful one(say, the German government deporting him back to Austria after his failed Putsch), you would've likely have seen a generic Military-Authoritarian state. It would still have sought Anschluss with Austria, and it would have still wanted to regain the eastern & western territories it lost to Poland, France & Belgium at Versailles, but I sincerely doubt there would have been a holocaust.

The NAZI's were strongly anti-immigrant, and even though Jews and Gypsies had lived in Germany for many centuries, they were still viewed as immigrants and "not true Germans". My point is that regardless as to which NAZI would be fuhrer, the policy of genocide might well have been the same.

 

[Nietzsche]

The NAZI's were strongly anti-immigrant, and even though Jews and Gypsies had lived in Germany for many centuries, they were still viewed as immigrants and "not true Germans". My point is that regardless as to which NAZI would be fuhrer, the policy of genocide might well have been the same.

That's the problem. Hitler was integral to the Nazi Party winning. It was his oratorical skills that got them the backing of the people. A Nazi Party without Hitler would be such a different beast that we may not even recognize it as being the same thing.

 

[metis]

That's the problem. Hitler was integral to the Nazi Party winning. It was his oratorical skills that got them the backing of the people. A Nazi Party without Hitler would be such a different beast that we may not even recognize it as being the same thing.

I buy the first part but not the second, even though there's no certainty involved with either position. Hitler's oratory skills were second to none, no doubt, but the NAZI's had taken the anti-immigration position as part of their general platform, and I very much doubt that had Hitler not been involved in the party that this would have been different. It was not just Hitler that was a cut-throat, so the hostility would have undoubtedly have been there even without him.

 

[Nietzsche]

I buy the first part but not the second, even though there's no certainty involved with either position. Hitler's oratory skills were second to none, no doubt, but the NAZI's had taken the anti-immigration position as part of their general platform, and I very much doubt that had Hitler not been involved in the party that this would have been different. It was not just Hitler that was a cut-throat, so the hostility would have undoubtedly have been there even without him.

You are aware that the Nazis originally planned to simply deport all the Undesirables, right? It was going to be a death sentence for most, because the areas they decided on would've been east of the Urals or in Madagascar. The actual decision to just start killing the inmates was taken only when it became clear that the Soviet Union was not going to fall as quickly as they hoped.

However, I must stress again; Germany undoubtedly harboured xenophobic feelings. But they were no worse than anywhere else in Europe at the time. Honestly, if you want to see where Jews and such had it worst, just look to Poland.

 

[metis]

You are aware that the Nazis originally planned to simply deport all the Undesirables, right?

Correct.

It was going to be a death sentence for most, because the areas they decided on would've been east of the Urals or in Madagascar. The actual decision to just start killing the inmates was taken only when it became clear that the Soviet Union was not going to fall as quickly as they hoped.

It wasn't just them as very few countries said they would let us in but they were darn near impossible to get to. The Final Solution was not actually designed by Hitler but he obviously came to support it.

However, I must stress again; Germany undoubtedly harboured xenophobic feelings. But they were no worse than anywhere else in Europe at the time. Honestly, if you want to see where Jews and such had it worst, just look to Poland.

Let's not confuse things here. I was not talking about German versus other attitudes in regards to "undesirables" and anti-Semitism but on what the NAZI's had as part of their agenda, and that agenda was not just the by-product of Hitler or that of the German people. We can't realistically blame all Germans or just Hitler.

 

[Nietzsche]

Correct.



It wasn't just them as very few countries said they would let us in but they were darn near impossible to get to. The Final Solution was not actually designed by Hitler but he obviously came to support it.

"Working towards the Fuehrer", yes.

Let's not confuse things here. I was not talking about German versus other attitudes in regards to "undesirables" and anti-Semitism but on what the NAZI's had as part of their agenda, and that agenda was not just the by-product of Hitler or that of the German people. We can't realistically blame all Germans or just Hitler.

Ahhh, that's where I think our disagreement arose.

 

[dust1n]

Which South American country did Hitler retire in?

 

[Nietzsche]

Which South American country did Hitler retire in?

pft.

None of them. He was pretty clearly dead & burned. Now, the possibility exists that Martin Bormann made it out.

 

[dust1n]

pft.

None of them. He was pretty clearly dead & burned. Now, the possibility exists that Martin Bormann made it out.

Many did. Okay, well then which North African country did Hitler escape via a tunnel through his bunker?

 

[ShivaFan]

What is your fascination with this subject and why? Can you read old script German? (see book below)

Who is this person in this image with Hitler? (Nov 1941)

Who are these SS Death Head Troops?

Who are these SS Death Head Troops?

I possess the following book:

Do you know the background on it?

Who said the following? Do you think this person is a Christian?
13 Dec 1941"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imaginenothing more senseless,nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery”

 

[Lyndon]

Aren't you the one who said you're highly impressed by the Neo Nazi leader Gert Wilders? Now you have this rare book about Hitler, this is sounding pretty creepy.....

 

[Nietzsche]

What is your fascination with this subject and why? Can you read old script German? (see book below)

My fascination is because there is something strangely appealing about the notion of Lebensraum, turning Eastern Europe & European Russia into a massive settler-colony. A sort of "Wild East".

Who is this person in this image with Hitler? (Nov 1941)

Isn't that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem?

Who are these SS Death Head Troops?


Who are these SS Death Head Troops?

I believe those are Bosniaks and a handful of who would become Iraqis. I might be wrong on the latter.

I possess the following book:


Do you know the background on it?

That was written by one of his fellow inmates when he was in Landsberg in the 20s, right?

Who said the following? Do you think this person is a Christian?
13 Dec 1941"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imaginenothing more senseless,nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery”

Where did I claim he was a Christian? I said he was a Deist of sorts. Also;

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. ...Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. ...

I thought you & I agreed that Hitler's faith could best be described as "bat**** insane".

 

[Nietzsche]

You've said you're highly impressed by the Neo Nazi leader Gert Wilders, now you have this rare book about Hitler, you're starting to creep me out......

Wilders is many terrible, despicable things. A Nazi isn't one of them.

 

[ShivaFan]

Thanks Nietzche, actually you pretty much hit the nail on the head with all my questions. No, I never was saying you said Hitler was a Christian - just curious if you were aware of Hitler's hatred for Christians, it wasn't just Jews, and many of them also went to the concentration camps though not in as many numbers.

Yes, the photo is the Grand Mufti of the Mosque in Jerusalem. There were many connections between the Nazi element and Islamic extremists. The Death Head troops were elite Muslim Bosnians, SS troops who committed mass murders of Jews. The Bosnians were not the only ones. I have documentation related to Kiev and the Nazis using Muslum SS in that area as well.

In my University, I wrote a paper on the Islamic links to the National Socialists. I also have source quotes from Hitler praising Islam but attacking Christianity.

You have a lot of information, when did this subject first capture your attention?

Lyndon - you are thinking I am a Nazi? I hate them. Wilders is not one. Did you even know of Wilders life in Israel? He is against Islamic extremism for the very reason of his LOVE for the Jews - and you call him a Nazi? He also links Islamic extremism to National Socialism in their anti-Semitic ideation and hatred. You are very ignorant in this regard. The book has importance as to the historical backgrotnd of National Socialism, and a lot of source material directly from the mouth of Hitler when his was thrown in prison in the early attempts of the freebooters to overthrow the government. You are totally off base and frankly naive.

 

[Nietzsche]

Thanks Nietzche, actually you pretty much hit the nail on the head with all my questions. No, I never was saying you said Hitler was a Christian - just curious if you were aware of Hitler's hatred fur Christians, it was just Jews, and many of them also went to the concentration camps though not in as many numbers.

Yes, the photo is the Grand Mufti. There were many connections between the Nazi element and Islamic extremists. The Death Head troops were elite Muslim Bosnians, SS troops who committed mass murders of Jews. The Bosnians were not the only ones. I have documentation related to Kiev and the Nazis using Muslum SS in that area as well.

Ah. I know there was also a contingent of Iraqis, the failed coup and all, and I swore that some of them managed to make it as far Germany. It wouldn't be unheard of. There was that poor Korean ******* who fought for the Japanese, the Soviets, and finally the Germans on the Atlantic Wall. Talk about joining the army to see the world, eh?

There's also that the Charlemagne Division of the Waffen SS were some of the last defenders of Berlin.

In my University, I wrote a paper on the Islamic links to the National Socialists. I also have source quotes from Hitler praising Islam but attacking Christianity.

Hitler tailored his language to those he was around. Generally speaking, I think the 'truest Hitler' can only be found in his conversations with Goebbels.

You have a lot of information, when did this subject first capture your attention?

I was 12 or so. It snowballed from then on out. My true passion, however, is for Prussia. And I shall admit something; I have a fondness for Hermann Goering. I don't think he was a racist. He just loved power and hurting people. I see Reinhard Heydrich the same way. If they could've gotten away with it I don't doubt either of them would've been slaughtering their fellow 'Aryans'. But my fondness of him comes from how he lived. A true hedonist. That speaks to me.

Lyndon - you are thinking I am a Nazi? I hate them. Wilders is not one. The book has importance as to the historical backgrotnd of National Socialism, and a lot of source material directly from the mouth of Hitler when his was thruwn in prison in the early attempts of the freebooters to overthrow the guvernment. You are totally off base and frankly naive.

I find it funny that apparently, a few of his fellow inmates hated him because of his inane monologues.

 

[MD]

Could Hitler have won or reached a stalemate had he

a) won the battle of Britain?
b) taken Stalingrad?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

BBC - Culture - Mein Kampf: The world’s most dangerous book?
Do you agree that Mein Kampf may be one of the worlds most dangerous books, and something should be done to prevent it being massively distributed when it's copyright term is expires at the end of this year?