Ask me about the Third Reich, National Socialism, Hitler & the Holocaust

[Nietzsche]

Could Hitler have won or reached a stalemate had he

a) won the battle of Britain?
b) taken Stalingrad?

A) He would have to have been capable of winning the BoB first. The fact of the matter is that the Luftwaffe, while one of the most impressive & awe-inspiring airforces on the planet at the time, was a tactical weapon not a strategic one. And that's what Hitler would've needed to deal Britain a body-blow. The Luftwaffe was geared towards three things:

One. Precision strikes & terror-bombing(Rotterdam, Guernica, Warsaw)

Two. Mobile fire-support for the leading edge of the Wehrmacht advance(the Stuka in particular) as a force multiplier, especially regarding the massed mechanized & Panzer divisions. Blitzkrieg relied on punching a hole so hard & so deep into the enemy line that you can then send in your slower infantry to do..

Three. Mop-up operations. This is best illustrated by Rommel's 7th Panzer-Division during the Fall of France. They were known as the 'Ghost Division' because they outpaced even the most optimistic of the Wehrmacht's progress estimations. French & British forces after being dazed by the punch of the Panzer & Panzergrenadiers were picked off by the Heavy Tactical Bombers of the Luftwaffe(the Ju-88s and He111s).

B) Stalingrad is not where the Wehrmacht lost its way, but it's the best illustration of it. Before, the Wehrmacht had a "pick our battles" doctrine. Anything that would've taken any time to take was to be surrounded and left to starve. They did this at Kiev to astounding effect. But by slowing down, they lost the best weapon the Wehrmacht had. Its unparalleled speed. It wasn't that their guns were the biggest, that their armour was the thickest, it was that they could advance at a rate simply unheard of, something that even the most modern military forces today struggle to do.

They achieved this with two things. Their actual war-industry(which was running red-hot from 1936 to 1945) and their Chemical industry. Ever wonder why the Germans could keep their troops at the front? Why their pilots & tankers racked up ludicrous kills? Methamphetamines. They were running literally on speed. The German Soldier didn't get tired. He didn't have to eat as much. They really, genuinely were Supermen for a time.

To win the Battle of Britain, German War Industry would have to skimp on something else to produce Strategic-Bombers in large enough capacity to truly cripple the British. What do you take from? The Panzers? The fighters? The dive-bombers or half-tracks? The Uboats? It couldn't be done. They needed a different strategy.

To win at Stalingrad..

Well, the best victory is a battle you don't have to fight, so says Sun Tzu. Skip Stalingrad and continue on to the Caucuses. Even if the Soviets blow up their oil refineries and wells, it still means they don't get to use it either.

BBC - Culture - Mein Kampf: The world’s most dangerous book?
Do you agree that Mein Kampf may be one of the worlds most dangerous books, and something should be done to prevent it being massively distributed when it's copyright term is expires at the end of this year?

NO. And again, No. Mein Kampf is important to world history, especially European. I would make it required reading in schools. People will be better prepared against acts of hate if they can recognize its seed & fruit.

 

[metis]

Which South American country did Hitler retire in?

Wherever Elvis is.

 

[Nietzsche]

Wherever Elvis is.

A nursing home with Black Kennedy being stalked by Bubba-Ho-Tep?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

NO. And again, No. Mein Kampf is important to world history, especially European. I would make it required reading in schools. People will be better prepared against acts of hate if they can recognize its seed & fruit.

I fully agree with that. It is only by knowing ourselves and our enemies that we can be victorious. Mein Kampf is perhaps one of our better sources of knowledge for being able to fight back against such deep hatred, and even sport early warning signs.
Have you ever watched the movie Der Untergang? Would you agree that, despite the fact this has been heavily criticized, that humanizing Hitler is a good thing so we can see that humans, who are really no different than you or I, are capable of such hatred and destruction?

 

[metis]

Could Hitler have won or reached a stalemate had he

a) won the battle of Britain?
b) taken Stalingrad?

I'm going to disagree with Nietzsche on this (at least I think I will).

Hitler became increasingly paranoid as the war went on, and he admitted that he was a coward when it came to invading by sea. Had the German forces almost immediately upon securing the mainland along the Atlantic coast invaded Britain with massive air support and eliminating the British radar facilities, and doing this prior to opening the front against the Soviets, I have no doubt he could have taken enough strategic areas to at least neutralize the Brits.

Another huge mistake was the splitting of the German forces into three different fronts on the eastern front, largely because the Germans felt that this would be a piece of cake for them. All three fronts got bogged down, and then the Germans made another mistake by not pulling back during the winter.

BTW, Hitler also made a huge mistake by stopping development of some of the weapons programs, such as a newer generation of rockets (the V10 & V11, if my memory is correct) and their nuclear program. And this was done because he had a dream they wouldn't work.

There are other significant errors made as well, but I think you get my drift.

 

[Nietzsche]

I fully agree with that. It is only by knowing ourselves and our enemies that we can be victorious. Mein Kampf is perhaps one of our better sources of knowledge for being able to fight back against such deep hatred, and even sport early warning signs.
Have you ever watched the movie Der Untergang? Would you agree that, despite the fact this has been heavily criticized, that humanizing Hitler is a good thing so we can see that humans, who are really no different than you or I, are capable of such hatred and destruction?

Der Untergang is better than most documentaries on Hitler. It is truly the best look inside the mind of that sick, sad man during the last hours of his existence. It is certainly the single most perfect performance ever given by an actor playing Adolf Hitler. It's like they opened a portal to April, 1945 and just started filming.

Hitler was human. People all too often forget that. There were no demons at work, no gods in play, nothing but pure humanity. His actions were monstrous but that doesn't make him a monster. Not in the way people seem to like thinking. And that is why I find it so utterly disgusting when people try to paint supernatural or other tones on him. It demeans the lives lost. It takes away our collective responsibility. Hitler wasn't the Devil. He was a man of flesh & blood. He had hopes, dreams. He had immense courage. He survived the Great War, despite being hit by mustard gas. He had feelings.

Had he not genuinely, totally, utterly believed everything he said he couldn't of done what he did. He couldn't of won others to his side. He couldn't still win people to his side today if he weren't totally convinced that he was doing the right thing.

That's what people should see when they think of Hitler. A man. Possessed by nothing but his own contempt for others, driven by the pain of his life and the injustices he saw around him, and willing to do anything & everything to right what he saw as wrong.

Had Hitler put that drive & passion into anything else, we might now be talking about the greatest humanitarian of the 20th century, or the most brilliant composer of our time. But rather than appeal to Athena or to Aphrodite, Demeter or Mercury, he sought the path of Mars. And that's what we got.

 

[Nietzsche]

I'm going to disagree with Nietzsche on this (at least I think I will).

Hitler became increasingly paranoid as the war went on, and he admitted that he was a coward when it came to invading by sea. Had the German forces almost immediately upon securing the mainland along the Atlantic coast invaded Britain with massive air support and eliminating the British radar facilities, and doing this prior to opening the front against the Soviets, I have no doubt he could have taken enough strategic areas to at least neutralize the Brits.

To do that you'd have to change the very nature of Goering's Luftwaffe. It didn't build up the planes in months, it took years. Take away from its Tactical goals and you reduce the efficiency of the Wehrmacht's battle-plans. Not to mention 'Sealion' was simply impossible. The Kriegsmarine would never have been able to even put a dent in the Royal Navy.

Another huge mistake was the splitting of the German forces into three different fronts on the eastern front, largely because the Germans felt that this would be a piece of cake for them. All three fronts got bogged down, and then the Germans made another mistake by not pulling back during the winter.

This is something of a myth. The No-Retreat Order was the right call, albeit it was handled in far too draconian a manner. A strategic retreat might've become a route. Now, yes they should have allowed retreat into areas they could better defend(across rivers, forests, things of that nature) to weather the Winter. But as a whole, the order was not without merit.

BTW, Hitler also made a huge mistake by stopping development of some of the weapons programs, such as a newer generation of rockets (the V10 & V11, if my memory is correct) and their nuclear program. And this was done because he had a dream they wouldn't work.

That is another myth. Hitler was surprisingly well-informed on the viability of a nuclear weapon. But he assumed that it would not be the weapon to win this war, but the next. Look at it from his perspective. He's winning a conventional war. He's also running out of money and resources. Do you spend it on more tanks, more planes & more guns or do you funnel it to a program that might bear fruit in a few years?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Der Untergang is better than most documentaries on Hitler. It is truly the best look inside the mind of that sick, sad man during the last hours of his existence. It is certainly the single most perfect performance ever given by an actor playing Adolf Hitler. It's like they opened a portal to April, 1945 and just started filming.

Hitler was human. People all too often forget that. There were no demons at work, no gods in play, nothing but pure humanity. His actions were monstrous but that doesn't make him a monster. Not in the way people seem to like thinking. And that is why I find it so utterly disgusting when people try to paint supernatural or other tones on him. It demeans the lives lost. It takes away our collective responsibility. Hitler wasn't the Devil. He was a man of flesh & blood. He had hopes, dreams. He had immense courage. He survived the Great War, despite being hit by mustard gas. He had feelings.

Had he not genuinely, totally, utterly believed everything he said he couldn't of done what he did. He couldn't of won others to his side. He couldn't still win people to his side today if he weren't totally convinced that he was doing the right thing.

That's what people should see when they think of Hitler. A man. Possessed by nothing but his own contempt for others, driven by the pain of his life and the injustices he saw around him, and willing to do anything & everything to right what he saw as wrong.

Had Hitler put that drive & passion into anything else, we might now be talking about the greatest humanitarian of the 20th century, or the most brilliant composer of our time. But rather than appeal to Athena or to Aphrodite, Demeter or Mercury, he sought the path of Mars. And that's what we got.

I think that may very well be the very best approach to Hitler I have ever seen.
As for Der Untergang, it's one of the movies that quickly won me over to being a fan of German cinema. I would make it required viewing to graduate high school if I could.

 

[metis]

To do that you'd have to change the very nature of Goering's Luftwaffe. It didn't build up the planes in months, it took years. Take away from its Tactical goals and you reduce the efficiency of the Wehrmacht's battle-plans. Not to mention 'Sealion' was simply impossible. The Kriegsmarine would never have been able to even put a dent in the Royal Navy.


This is something of a myth. The No-Retreat Order was the right call, albeit it was handled in far too draconian a manner. A strategic retreat might've become a route. Now, yes they should have allowed retreat into areas they could better defend(across rivers, forests, things of that nature) to weather the Winter. But as a whole, the order was not without merit.


That is another myth. Hitler was surprisingly well-informed on the viability of a nuclear weapon. But he assumed that it would not be the weapon to win this war, but the next. Look at it from his perspective. He's winning a conventional war. He's also running out of money and resources. Do you spend it on more tanks, more planes & more guns or do you funnel it to a program that might bear fruit in a few years?

Well, let's just say that our sources don't fit too well together. My source is one of my professors who specialized on Rommel and the German North African campaign, authored two or three books on Rommel, and I took him for three classes. Of course that doesn't mean that he's right and you're wrong, so I'll guess I'll just have to state it as he said it but not insisting that he was right. So, to your points:

The Luftwaffe didn't have to do anywhere near as much damage as your implying since the British were short on pretty much everything prior to getting aid from the Commonwealth countries and the U.S. They were very vulnerable, and the Germans only needed to neutralize them, especially the British radar and air force, and the Brits would have been in no position to get aid and react. They simply wouldn't have stood a chance as the Royal Air Force simply was no match.

Secondly, the German army was not equipped to handle the winter conditions on the eastern front, so I simply cannot at all agree with you on that. As a matter of fact, your assertion is the very first one I've ever seen that attests to the German action being correct, and I frankly don't believe it. The soldiers got bogged down, and we know this as fact. Instead, the German forces should have gone after the main Soviet force near Minsk, defeated them, and then moved south to get the oil they desperately needed. Leningrad could have waited.

Finally, Hitler was having some rather serious mental problems as the war was winding down, and this has been well documented. He was being told of German victories even when they were getting heavily bombed in Berlin. Most historians I've read feel that when he almost got assassinated, even though the attempt did not succeed, it had a very strong effect on his mental health.

So, I'm not saying my sources are correct, but this is what I had come to understand.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

There is a lot of misconception regarding Nazi Germany, Hitler, and things related to it. While I certainly do not claim to know everything about the subjects, I do know a good deal, and seeing as how there have been quite a few times this has popped up lately, I would like to have a place where people might learn something about the topic and to also prevent other threads from derailing.

Again, I don't know everything about it but I would like to think I know enough to help. So ask away.

As a thought experiment: supposing you worked for British intelligence during the war, and there arose an oppurtunity to steal the War Plans at castle Wolfenstein. The castle is full of SS officers, and the plan is to send a spy to infiltrate the castle posing as an SS officer, in order to fit in the crowd, and sneak and copy the plans, and return back to Brittain.

What would you tell the spy how to pretend to be an SS officer?

This thought experiment is designed to take away the blame game aspect of talking about the nazi's, and get a really practical notion of what a nazi really is.

 

[Laika]

Der Untergang is better than most documentaries on Hitler. It is truly the best look inside the mind of that sick, sad man during the last hours of his existence. It is certainly the single most perfect performance ever given by an actor playing Adolf Hitler. It's like they opened a portal to April, 1945 and just started filming.

Hitler was human. People all too often forget that. There were no demons at work, no gods in play, nothing but pure humanity. His actions were monstrous but that doesn't make him a monster. Not in the way people seem to like thinking. And that is why I find it so utterly disgusting when people try to paint supernatural or other tones on him. It demeans the lives lost. It takes away our collective responsibility. Hitler wasn't the Devil. He was a man of flesh & blood. He had hopes, dreams. He had immense courage. He survived the Great War, despite being hit by mustard gas. He had feelings.

Had he not genuinely, totally, utterly believed everything he said he couldn't of done what he did. He couldn't of won others to his side. He couldn't still win people to his side today if he weren't totally convinced that he was doing the right thing.

That's what people should see when they think of Hitler. A man. Possessed by nothing but his own contempt for others, driven by the pain of his life and the injustices he saw around him, and willing to do anything & everything to right what he saw as wrong.

Had Hitler put that drive & passion into anything else, we might now be talking about the greatest humanitarian of the 20th century, or the most brilliant composer of our time. But rather than appeal to Athena or to Aphrodite, Demeter or Mercury, he sought the path of Mars. And that's what we got.

I've been following this thread as it makes fascinating reading. You really know you're stuff Nietzsche.

But, I'd could hug you for this post as mythologizing Hitler as a demon lets us off the hook from trying to understand the mentality that made him and his subordinates possible. Trying to come to terms with it says about our humanity is a measure of our power and our responsibility to others.

 

[Nietzsche]

As a thought experiment: supposing you worked for British intelligence during the war, and there arose an oppurtunity to steal the War Plans at castle Wolfenstein. The castle is full of SS officers, and the plan is to send a spy to infiltrate the castle posing as an SS officer, in order to fit in the crowd, and sneak and copy the plans, and return back to Brittain.

What would you tell the spy how to pretend to be an SS officer?

This thought experiment is designed to take away the blame game aspect of talking about the nazi's, and get a really practical notion of what a nazi really is.

That depends entirely on what this 'Castle Wolfenstein' is used for. Is it an SS gathering area? A training camp situated in a castle? Is it a ceremony area? Is it a Camp of some kind? What portion of the SS are we talking about? What period of the war are we in?

I'm going to need this before I can answer that with any confidence.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

UJHh

That depends entirely on what this 'Castle Wolfenstein' is used for. Is it an SS gathering area? A training camp situated in a castle? Is it a ceremony area? Is it a Camp of some kind? What portion of the SS are we talking about? What period of the war are we in?

I'm going to need this before I can answer that with any confidence.

I don't think you need that, I don't think the basic nazi identity changed during the course of the war. We are talking about SS officers. It's a retreat for SS officers in Germany in 1942, for learning from each others experiences.

 

[Nietzsche]

UJHh


I don't think you need that, I don't think the basic nazi identity changed during the course of the war. We are talking about SS officers. It's a retreat for SS officers in Germany in 1942, for learning from each others experiences.

You don't think I need that. I'm telling you I need that. Nazi Identity is like saying Muslim identity. It was never an ideologically consistent movement. You had the more Social Revolutionary sorts such as Goebbels, the Social-Revolutionary + Planned Economy proponents in the Strassers, then there was the more mild "generic military authoritarianism" found in Hermann Goering, Karl Doenitz & most of the Wehrmacht General Staff, there was also the super-extreme Racial-Purity fanatics akin to Himmler and Hess.

Within the SS there existed Himmler's racial-purity/Germanic blood-faith 'volkische' view, and then there was the ice-cold pragmatism & sociopathy of Reinhard Heydrich (The Man With the Iron Heart), so on and so forth.

There was never a consolidated "Nazi" Identity. If you'd bothered to read my posts in this thread you would notice how often I go on about the utter train-wreck that was the Nazi form of government. It encouraged in-fighting and Hitler would only ever take sides when it became clear who would win. There were conflicts on every level of the Reich government, from who had the final say in policing(Goering eventually won that), to who dealt with mail outside the "Old Reich"(that would be Austria, the Sudetenland, Bohemia-Moravia, the Wartheland Gau, the Danzig-Westpreussen Gau, the Polish General-Government, the to-be-formed Flandern, Brabant & Holland Guas, ect).

So no, I cannot answer the question the way you asked it. And I have the distinct feeling you're fishing for a certain response, and I utterly refuse to do that. Give me what I asked and I'll be happy to tell you what I think. If you're genuinely interested in the answer it won't be difficult to give me what I asked. I just want a time period, the purpose of this 'Castle Wolfenstein' and what portion of the SS is operating it. The SS was an umbrella organization that contained several different organs. There's the standard SS, who became sort of the administrative heads of the greater SS Organization after it was replaced as Hitler's personal bodyguard by the newly-formed Waffen-SS, then there were the youth-groups, the foreign departments of the SS, the archeological division, so on and so forth.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

You don't think I need that. I'm telling you I need that. Nazi Identity is like saying Muslim identity. It was never an ideologically consistent movement. You had the more Social Revolutionary sorts such as Goebbels, the Social-Revolutionary + Planned Economy proponents in the Strassers, then there was the more mild "generic military authoritarianism" found in Hermann Goering, Karl Doenitz & most of the Wehrmacht General Staff, there was also the super-extreme Racial-Purity fanatics akin to Himmler and Hess.

Within the SS there existed Himmler's racial-purity/Germanic blood-faith 'volkische' view, and then there was the ice-cold pragmatism & sociopathy of Reinhard Heydrich (The Man With the Iron Heart), so on and so forth.

There was never a consolidated "Nazi" Identity. If you'd bothered to read my posts in this thread you would notice how often I go on about the utter train-wreck that was the Nazi form of government. It encouraged in-fighting and Hitler would only ever take sides when it became clear who would win. There were conflicts on every level of the Reich government, from who had the final say in policing(Goering eventually won that), to who dealt with mail outside the "Old Reich"(that would be Austria, the Sudetenland, Bohemia-Moravia, the Wartheland Gau, the Danzig-Westpreussen Gau, the Polish General-Government, the to-be-formed Flandern, Brabant & Holland Guas, ect).

So no, I cannot answer the question the way you asked it. And I have the distinct feeling you're fishing for a certain response, and I utterly refuse to do that. Give me what I asked and I'll be happy to tell you what I think. If you're genuinely interested in the answer it won't be difficult to give me what I asked. I just want a time period, the purpose of this 'Castle Wolfenstein' and what portion of the SS is operating it. The SS was an umbrella organization that contained several different organs. There's the standard SS, who became sort of the administrative heads of the greater SS Organization after it was replaced as Hitler's personal bodyguard by the newly-formed Waffen-SS, then there were the youth-groups, the foreign departments of the SS, the archeological division, so on and so forth.

I already said what year it was and gave the castle a purpose, and I already constricted it to ss officers. And if you refuse to provide an answer, then in the thought experiment ofcourse you get shot for treason.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Do you think if the Fuhrer succeeded and became victorious there would be israel today?
Also how would the world look like?

Also how would the relationship between Muslim World and Third Reich look like?

 

[Lyndon]

I think the rest of the world would look like Dresden after the bombing.

 

[Bunyip]

Do you think if the Fuhrer succeeded and became victorious there would be israel today?
Also how would the world look like?

Also how would the relationship between Muslim World and Third Reich look like?

There were brigades of Moslem soldiers in the Waffen SS, such as the Handschar. Hitler had close relationships with a number of Arab groups, parricularly the Free Arab movement. They were natural allies in the assault upon Judaism.

I would think that there would be no Israel had the NAZI won.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Do you think if the Fuhrer succeeded and became victorious there would be israel today?
Also how would the world look like?

Also how would the relationship between Muslim World and Third Reich look like?

I heared somewhere the nazi scientists were misled by other scientists providing false data of radioactive measurements, which lead the nazi's to give up on developing the atomic bomb. Could have been the difference between victory and defeat.

Otherwise, the USA and Brittain bombed to hell. Eastern Europe depopulated. High ranking nazi's living like kings on enormous ranches in the East. Ofcourse Israel would not come to exist. The muslim world would probably be largely left alone.

 

[Bunyip]

Ooh.....I know! If the NAZI had won, Europe would have been united into a single state..........oh hang on.....