What Happens When You Die?

[godnotgod]

All living organisms are subject to birth and death, there doesn't have to be a self. Sure, it's all a process, but I'm not sure that really answers the question.

Maybe the self is an illusion, maybe it isn't. Maybe we have a soul, maybe we don't. What's your view on these questions?

The mind is a self-created principle, and it is the mind which creates the idea of "i". 'I' live; 'I' die' 'I' think, etc. 'It is only an idea, not a reality. In your meditation, look for this 'I'. For centuries, mystics have come up empty handed.

If birth and death are only processes, without a processor, then where is the 'I' that is born; that dies. Who is it that lives? Who is it that dies?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Perhaps 'cyclic' as a discription would help with understanding.

There are many cyclic patterns in the natural world, and birth and death could be a part of that. Like a tree appearing to die in the winter and then regaining it's leaves in the spring. Is that the kind of thing you were thinking of?

 

[godnotgod]

Perhaps 'cyclic' as a discription would help with understanding.

In that view, then, there is the wheel, or reincarnation, which the awakened mind seeks to relieve himself of.

'All this world is filled with coming and going*. Show me the path where there is no coming and there is no going.'
Zen source

*coming and going = birth and death

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Who is it that lives? Who is it that dies?

I'm waiting for you to tell me.

 

[godnotgod]

Like birth and later death, the inner being within one's knowing comes forth.
It is there before existance, and lingers shortly, and goes forward into another form.
It will greet the surrounding realities of the new emergence with it's own being.
And it goes, forward and ever into infinity and beyond.
~
Many religions follow this way of thinking, not exactly, but close.
My the memories of you amongst others be the best of you.

'mud

My question to you is: is this inner being local, or non-local?

 

[godnotgod]

I'm waiting for you to tell me.

You said there is birth and death. I only want to know who, or what it is that is born and dies?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

You said there is birth and death. I only want to know who, or what it is that is born and dies?

Birth and death coincide with the arising and cessation of consciousness. Who or what is a matter of speculation, I haven't got an answer to that at the moment.

But again, asking the question is easy, so what's your view on this? I assume it's something along the lines of no self, just experience? "In the seen, just the seen" as it says in the Bahiya Sutta.

 

[Indira]

Your description must be a profile for most of us. I know the feelings exactly, except I'm not sure what you meant by that last statement. But I think most of the issues you raise have to do with the notion of an existing self in operation at every turn: 'I' control; 'I' think; etc. Even in release, the 'i' wants control! One of the things Zen has taught me is to always question: 'Who is it that controls?' 'Who is it that releases?' 'Who is it that lives?' 'Who is it that dies?', etc. With increasing mindfullness about the seeming activities of 'I', one soon gets glimpses that there is no such 'I'; there is only the action itself. The more this is practiced, the more 'i' will put up a fight to continue it's illusory existence as the controller of everything. But persistence in observation slowly begins to give you real control over the 'controller' by simply passing on the reflex, as you have said. Stay the course.



Certainly time away from the noise and drama of everyday life is necessary for spiritual growth. I live alone as it is, and try to devote as much time as I can to being attentive to those needs. Currently for me, my focus is on making things manageable in my life in order to create as much balance as possible, a sort of 'squaring' with the reality I find myself in, pulling in loose ends, and ultimately creating more 'prime time' for myself. But your suggestion may be the ultimate choice for those who have given themselves wholeheartedly to the effort toward their Enlightenment. Phillipe Kapleau, author of 'The Three Pillars of Zen', stamped the book ends with the beautiful image of a salmon leaping upstream to reach its 'home', using every last ounce of its energy to get there. And I remember the words of 'grasshopper' when asked about the spiritual life: 'I can think of none better'. Just depends on how much you want it and how much energy you are willing to put into it. It's called 'The Master Game', and is the most difficult of all life games to play, and probably the most rewarding, from the glimpses I've had.

The Zen series of woodcuts called 'Ten Bulls', portraying the stages of Enlightenment with commentary, shows as the last image, the Buddha returning to the world of men. If you are not familiar with them, here is a link for you:

Ten Bulls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My path lead to Tibetan Buddhism because it works for me as i am a simple woman and need direct and straight forward practice and discipline. Obviously Zen works for you but i find it's guidance a bit rambling and repetitive, no offense meant as you are most likely more learned than i. But the teachings reach the same path and i love that. Thank you, i will continue to read your offerings. Namaste Gng

 

[Indira]

In that view, then, there is the wheel, or reincarnation, which the awakened mind seeks to relieve himself of.

'All this world is filled with coming and going*. Show me the path where there is no coming and there is no going.'
Zen source

*coming and going = birth and death

I use the term rebirth of karmic energy through the process of cause and effect...the consciousness of the physical worlds are reborn. The direction can be beneficial or negative to spiritual growth depending on the clarity of clear light that remains with the karmic energy. In this way the innate knowledge is carried through to one's next birth, whether we progress or regress is dependent on how much effort one puts forth to that process. If one trusts the process there is no need or want for grasping control for ourselves or others..hence 'release your faith'.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

My path lead to Tibetan Buddhism because it works for me as i am a simple woman and need direct and straight forward practice and discipline

I spent many years in Tibetan Buddhism. Could you say which tradition / teacher you're with?

 

[Indira]

There are many cyclic patterns in the natural world, and birth and death could be a part of that. Like a tree appearing to die in the winter and then regaining it's leaves in the spring. Is that the kind of thing you were thinking of?

Very nice analogy Norman..now imagine that stillness flying free in the universe, no attachments.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

now imagine that stillness flying free in the universe, no attachments.

I can imagine it, I'm just not sure whether it's how things really are.

 

[Indira]

I spent many years in Tibetan Buddhism. Could you say which tradition / teacher you're with?

For the last ten years or so my main study and practice has been abhidhammic pitaka psychology Buddhism. Teachers anonymity is necessary.

 

[Indira]

I can imagine it, I'm just not sure whether it's how things really are.

That is the nature of emptiness in our physical manifestation..it is not necessary to know that either..what is is..what we know is our mind trying to make sense of the unknowable. I just trust the process and try and not get off path of the guiding light of love and compassion so my karma will benefit and my life can have peace which promotes both.

 

[`mud]

From GNG
"My question to you is: is this inner being local, or non-local"

Ahhhhh...from where did the 'inner being' come ?
What is the source of the true gnosis of causes ?
Knowledge is not foretold, it is grown from the seed of gnosis.
One's inner being is a product of that seed, it is never only local.
In fact, it is produced by the melding of other gnosis' couplings.
The enlargement of an already present entity, called 'self'.
But sadly, eventually, it vanishes into the coming ether of future gnosis.
nuff stuff
~
'mud

 

[Aupmanyav]

But people get born and die all the time, so what does this actually mean?

Spiny, it is like this. Humans are atoms and molecules. These join and appear in new forms all the time. They have been doing this for the last 13.75 billion years and will continue to do so for one more billion years (after that all water gets evaporated from earth and life disappears here. Initially I thought life would last for some 5 billion years till the sun changes into a red giant but nature will not give that much time to life on earth - Sun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia So who gets born and who dies, it is only a matter of saying.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

...what we know is our mind trying to make sense of the unknowable.

I find meditation helpful, completely quietening the mind and experiencing spaciousness - I do get the odd "glimpse". Thinking doesn't usually get me very far though.

 

[Indira]

I don't understand where 'local or non local' reasoning is coming from? ONE, infinity and Supreme Law knows not time or distance and, imo, only on the physical planes are separation and ego consciousness forefront if one choses the path of disunity and segregation.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Humans are atoms and molecules.

Sure, but that really doesn't tell us much about the nature of consciousness, beyond observing that it arises at birth and ceases at death.

 

[Indira]

I find meditation helpful, completely quietening the mind and experiencing spaciousness - I do get the odd "glimpse". Thinking doesn't usually get me very far though.

Purpose defeats the empty .. wherever you go there you are is the peace of the ONE..time and space are not relevant.