Jesus is not god

[Sabour]

I know that most members debated that countless times and the debate is getting old, but actually I came through 2 verses in the bible that would explicitly say that Jesus peace be upon him was not god.

Numbers 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you know."


Now there are many verses in the bible that do serve the same purpose, but I think these two would be enough for now and I would see how the discussion would progress.

 

[Thana]

Numbers is not talking about specifically being human, It's talking about human nature, Our fallibility.
And Jesus never sinned so.... I'd say that verse still holds true.

 

[Sabour]

Numbers is not talking about specifically being human, It's talking about human nature, Our fallibility.
And Jesus never sinned so.... I'd say that verse still holds true.

How do you know what numbers is talking about?

I dont agree to what you have stated, but let us assume that this is true, let us quote the verse again.

Numbers 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Did Jesus peace be upon him ever changed his mind?


John 7:1-10
After this, Jesus moved about within Galilee; but he did not wish to travel in Judea, because the Jews were trying to kill him.
But the Jewish feast of Tabernacles was near.
So his brothers said to him, "Leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples also may see the works you are doing.
No one works in secret if he wants to be known publicly. If you do these things, manifest yourself to the world."
For his brothers did not believe in him.
So Jesus said to them, "My time is not yet here, but the time is always right for you.
The world cannot hate you, but it hates me, because I testify to it that its works are evil.
You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, because my time has not yet been fulfilled."
After he had said this, he stayed on in Galilee.
But when his brothers had gone up to the feast, he himself also went up, not openly but (as it were) in secret.

 

[psychoslice]

For me Jesus declared God, he said himself that he cannot do anything without the father. But also I feel that we are all the same as Jesus believing we are doing it all ourselves, we are not the carnal mind body, we are all One in the God, when we read the bible and make it personal it will reveal itself as such.

 

[Sabour]

For me Jesus declared God, he said himself that he cannot do anything without the father. But also I feel that we are all the same as Jesus believing we are doing it all ourselves, we are not the carnal mind body, we are all One in the God, when we read the bible and make it personal it will reveal itself as such.

We are not carnal mind body, however there are things about God we can't know unless God tells us about. This is why there are prophets chosen by God to do so. And Jesus peace be upon him was one of them.

 

[Thana]

How do you know what numbers is talking about?

I dont agree to what you have stated, but let us assume that this is true, let us quote the verse again.

Numbers 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Did Jesus peace be upon him ever changed his mind?


John 7:1-10
After this, Jesus moved about within Galilee; but he did not wish to travel in Judea, because the Jews were trying to kill him.
But the Jewish feast of Tabernacles was near.
So his brothers said to him, "Leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples also may see the works you are doing.
No one works in secret if he wants to be known publicly. If you do these things, manifest yourself to the world."
For his brothers did not believe in him.
So Jesus said to them, "My time is not yet here, but the time is always right for you.
The world cannot hate you, but it hates me, because I testify to it that its works are evil.
You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, because my time has not yet been fulfilled."
After he had said this, he stayed on in Galilee.
But when his brothers had gone up to the feast, he himself also went up, not openly but (as it were) in secret.

It says right there, He didn't change his mind, He purposely didn't go with them so He could go alone and in secret.

 

[Sabour]

It says right there, He didn't change his mind, He purposely didn't go with them so He could go alone and in secret.

I didn't see this in the verses.

Anyways let me ask you, what about the Crucifixion?

According to Christianity Jesus peace be upon him sacrificed himself willingly. But Mark 15:34 portrays the picture otherwise.

Mark 15:34 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

If he is god, why he was unwilling and that he became willing?

Additional question, was Jesus peace be upon him praying to himself?

 

[Thana]

I didn't see this in the verses.

Anyways let me ask you, what about the Crucifixion?

According to Christianity Jesus peace be upon him sacrificed himself willingly. But Mark 15:34 portrays the picture otherwise.

Mark 15:34 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

If he is god, why he was unwilling and that he became willing?

Additional question, was Jesus peace be upon him praying to himself?

The verse never said He was unwilling, even so I imagine a part of Him was. Wouldn't you be uneager to suffer torture and death? The verse merely portrays that He was afraid.

As to Him praying to Himself, I don't have a universally accepted answer. I can only speculate, But just because it sounds strange doesn't make it unlikely or impossible. In His human state He cried out to His eternal, omnipotent, omniscient self. I don't see that as a problem.

 

[Sabour]

The verse never said He was unwilling, even so I imagine a part of Him was. Wouldn't you be uneager to suffer torture and death? The verse merely portrays that He was afraid.

As to Him praying to Himself, I don't have a universally accepted answer. I can only speculate, But just because it sounds strange doesn't make it unlikely or impossible. In His human state He cried out to His eternal, omnipotent, omniscient self. I don't see that as a problem.

What about Hebrews 5:7

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

 

[Thana]

What about Hebrews 5:7

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

I'm not sure what your point is, That He knew He wouldn't stay dead? I don't think that changes the pain of dying. Or are you trying to say He never died because you know I do not believe that and obviously won't agree.

 

[johnpeter1970]

I know that most members debated that countless times and the debate is getting old, but actually I came through 2 verses in the bible that would explicitly say that Jesus peace be upon him was not god.

Numbers 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you know."


Now there are many verses in the bible that do serve the same purpose, but I think these two would be enough for now and I would see how the discussion would progress.

There are four gospels in the Bible: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

In Matthew, Jesus is presented as a King.

As it is written:
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. (Zech 9:9)


In Mark, Jesus is presented as a Man.

As it is written:
And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: (Zech 6:12)


In Luke, Jesus is presented as a Servant.

As it is written:
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. (Isa 42:1)


In John, Jesus is presented as God.

As it is written:
O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! (Isa 40:9)

 

[Sabour]

There are four gospels in the Bible: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

In Matthew, Jesus is presented as a King.

As it is written:
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. (Zech 9:9)


In Mark, Jesus is presented as a Man.

As it is written:
And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: (Zech 6:12)


In Luke, Jesus is presented as a Servant.

As it is written:
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. (Isa 42:1)


In John, Jesus is presented as God.

As it is written:
O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! (Isa 40:9)

And in Luke 24:19
And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people.

John 4:19
The woman said unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

John 9:17
They say unto the blind man again, What do you say of him, that he has opened your eyes? He said, He is a prophet.


Which teachings are true however? And what about the verses that contradict that he was god for example ?

You can't accept the verses which say that Jesus peace be upon him wasn't god and accept those saying he is god.

 

[Sabour]

I'm not sure what your point is, That He knew He wouldn't stay dead? I don't think that changes the pain of dying. Or are you trying to say He never died because you know I do not believe that and obviously won't agree.

I was saying that he was praying to be saved as the verse clearly says, meaning he is not unwilling to be crucified.

So far, you have failed to answer any argument I posted. All your answers to the verses I posted actually doesn't answer the points made.

 

[Ingledsva]

What about Hebrews 5:7

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Yep, that one definitely shows that Jesus was human, not God.

Heb 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

Heb 5:3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

Heb 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared:

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

*

 

[johnpeter1970]

And in Luke 24:19
And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people.

John 4:19
The woman said unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

John 9:17
They say unto the blind man again, What do you say of him, that he has opened your eyes? He said, He is a prophet.


Which teachings are true however? And what about the verses that contradict that he was god for example ?

You can't accept the verses which say that Jesus peace be upon him wasn't god and accept those saying he is god.

READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER! You are ignoring the verses that comes after the verses that you quoted.

Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? (John 9:35)
He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? (John 9:36)
And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. (John 9:37)
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. (John 9:38)


And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: (Luke 24:52)




And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. (John 4:42)

 

[Thana]

I was saying that he was praying to be saved as the verse clearly says, meaning he is not unwilling to be crucified.

So far, you have failed to answer any argument I posted. All your answers to the verses I posted actually doesn't answer the points made.

I've answered every one of your posts, You just don't agree with the answers I've given.
Numbers is talking about human fallibility, And John wasn't him changing his mind, He purposely said he wasn't going so that he could go alone and finally, About Jesus being willing, What does it matter? Unwilling or willing, He went anyway. And I don't recall you ever quoting a verse that said he was willing to die, You just said it was a teaching of Christianity which is an anecdote.

 

[Ingledsva]

READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER! You are ignoring the verses that comes after the verses that you quoted.

Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? (John 9:35)
He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? (John 9:36)
And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. (John 9:37)
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. (John 9:38)


And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: (Luke 24:52)




And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. (John 4:42)

None of these say Jesus is God.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

,

There are four gospels in the Bible: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

In Matthew, Jesus is presented as a King.

As it is written:
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. (Zech 9:9)


In Mark, Jesus is presented as a Man.

As it is written:
And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: (Zech 6:12)


In Luke, Jesus is presented as a Servant.

As it is written:
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. (Isa 42:1)


In John, Jesus is presented as God.

As it is written:
O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! (Isa 40:9)

The Isaiah verse is not about Jesus.

As to the others - as one claiming to be the awaited Messiah - he would be man/human, - he was a Priest after the Order of Melchisedec which makes him a servant, and he is supposed to be of the line of David - like David - a King, and supposed to receive a Throne at the end.

NONE of these make him God.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

I know that most members debated that countless times and the debate is getting old, but actually I came through 2 verses in the bible that would explicitly say that Jesus peace be upon him was not god.

Numbers 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you know."


Now there are many verses in the bible that do serve the same purpose, but I think these two would be enough for now and I would see how the discussion would progress.

Yep, I don't know why they continue to deny what is in front of them.

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you know."

Multiple verses tell us he did NONE of the "miracles," God did them THROUGH him.

And that makes God - separate from him. Jesus is not God, No trinity.





*

 

[johnpeter1970]

,

The Isaiah verse is not about Jesus.

As to the others - as one claiming to be the awaited Messiah - he would be man/human, - he was a Priest after the Order of Melchisedec which makes him a servant, and he is supposed to be of the line of David - like David - a King, and supposed to receive a Throne at the end.

NONE of these make him God.

*

LOL!