Faith in Christ is Completely Logical

[Cephus]

To me it is a sign that the traditional modes of apologetics have worn too thin to work, so they've resorted to a fundamentalist version of solipsism. That's probably a good sign.

But just as most solipsism is easy to counter, so is it easy to blow away these fundamentalist beliefs. However, just like solipsists, theists aren't all that interested in evaluating their beliefs critically, nor do they care whether their beliefs are factually true. They just want to feel good.

 

[Sapiens]

I spent many, many years trying to disprove religion and faith.

What made you give up the good fight?

Frankly, most religions are build upon the interpretations and logic of men, who do, by nature, fall short of the glory of God, thus their doctrines are susceptible to being flawed as well.

There are some assumptions in that sentence that, though I agree with the conclusion, render it somewhat pablum-ish.

So religions are easy to disprove, and that is not just a handful, that is all of them.

I couldn't agree more.

So when we see our coequals, on the other side of the fence, rubbing their hands together in glee, taunting us with the words that religions are slowly fading from our world, we can take solice in the fact that we are best rid of them anyway, none of have authority to act in the name of God.

No, we are not "co-equals" that is the biggest fallacy of this entire discussion. It is only through the pretense that we start off in equal places that you even get a say, and that's dishonest ... can you really stack your (possible) personal delusions up against the accumulated wisdom of modern man? That's a powerful lot of egotism, if you ask me (which you didn't).

As I observed in another thread:

...
Placing "feeling justified in their beliefs" on a scale with demonstrable science and expecting it to weigh even heavier than peer reviewed science is delusional, as it the pretense at peer review that has become the au courant practice of many IDers.

Getting the creationist thumb on the scale is the entire raison d'être for attempting to present atheism as a religion or evolution as a belief system, etc., the false establishment of of equal starting positions. That is demonstrably a lie. You have at one end of the spectrum a choice between confusing delusion or dis-ingenuousness with reality and at the other end conscious duplicity in the service of a greater good (e.g., a deity), sure there's a poorly conceived argument, confusion and moments of doubt and faith in the middle, but it is long past time to get over it

To disprove them is a little like using the scientific method.

Something you seem quite unfamiliar with.

You have to simply be familiar with the scriptures, which give us and insight to the character and will of God, and have god knowledge of the Plan of Redemption. Like science there are set constants and laws that cannot be change. By those laws we can know what is true and what is false. If the contravene a principle or commandment then they are false.

A singularly false analogy.

For example, I listen to a testimony of a man who died and was revived. He gave a detailed account of what happened to him whilst he was dead. A very convincing account as well, but for one detail that exposed it as a fraud, or the source was dubious. He said that he found himself in the presence of God. Now, anyone who knows scriptures would know that it is impossible for a Spirit to be in the presence of God, pre-judgement. Anyone who is familiar with the Plan of Salvation would also know that his claim was fallacious. The Plan of Salvation is like a jig saw puzzle with every piece being unique. Many of our religions have some of the pieces, however, none of them have all the pieces. To disprove them is just a matter of looking at the pieces to see if they are all there. I have yet to find a religion that has all the pieces.

You make the assumption that scripture and the Plan of Salvation is something demonstrably real ... it is not. This poor sots personal testimony is every bit as good as yours.

To clarify when I say religion I am referring to denominations in the Christian faith.

Now faith and our personal relationship with God is another story. It cannot be faulted in anyway or form. To be converted by the Holy Ghost, who opens the gates to the pure knowledge of the Plan of Redemption, and to receive that knowledge in all humility and faith in Christ, is to make yourself impervious to the fiery darts of Satan.

... not to mention makes you immune to logic.

So, in essence, I am throwing down the gauntlet to anyone who thinks they can disprove the Plan that was devised by God and accepted by Christ.

Not my problem, you go ahead and knock yourself out trying to prove it, but don't expect your proof to come from the logical fallacy of argumentum e silentio. Many will choose to not play your game, that does not prove your assumptions.

I am looking for miss-shaped jig saw puzzle pieces that do to fit making the finished picture ugly instead of magnificent to behold. I am looking for someone to stump me on any aspect of Gods marvelous work and wonder to bring to pass the salvation and eternal life of mankind. If it cannot be done then even the disbelieved must concede that it is a rational and logical plan.

You are, in point of fact, looking to prove the unprovable by inflating your own ego. What an abysmal waste of your time, what an abysmal waste of time for anyone else to participate in.

 

[roger1440]

I spent many, many years trying to disprove religion and faith. Frankly, most religions are build upon the interpretations and logic of men, who do, by nature, fall short of the glory of God, thus their doctrines are susceptible to being flawed as well. So religions are easy to disprove, and that is not just a handful, that is all of them. So when we see our coequals, on the other side of the fence, rubbing their hands together in glee, taunting us with the words that religions are slowly fading from our world, we can take solice in the fact that we are best rid of them anyway, none of have authority to act in the name of God. To disprove them is a little like using the scientific method. You have to simply be familiar with the scriptures, which give us and insight to the character and will of God, and have god knowledge of the Plan of Redemption. Like science there are set constants and laws that cannot be change. By those laws we can know what is true and what is false. If the contravene a principle or commandment then they are false.

For example, I listen to a testimony of a man who died and was revived. He gave a detailed account of what happened to him whilst he was dead. A very convincing account as well, but for one detail that exposed it as a fraud, or the source was dubious. He said that he found himself in the presence of God. Now, anyone who knows scriptures would know that it is impossible for a Spirit to be in the presence of God, pre-judgement. Anyone who is familiar with the Plan of Salvation would also know that his claim was fallacious. The Plan of Salvation is like a jig saw puzzle with every piece being unique. Many of our religions have some of the pieces, however, none of them have all the pieces. To disprove them is just a matter of looking at the pieces to see if they are all there. I have yet to find a religion that has all the pieces.

To clarify when I say religion I am referring to denominations in the Christian faith.

Now faith and our personal relationship with God is another story. It cannot be faulted in anyway or form. To be converted by the Holy Ghost, who opens the gates to the pure knowledge of the Plan of Redemption, and to receive that knowledge in all humility and faith in Christ, is to make yourself impervious to the fiery darts of Satan. So, in essence, I am throwing down the gauntlet to anyone who thinks they can disprove the Plan that was devised by God and accepted by Christ. I am looking for miss-shaped jig saw puzzle pieces that do to fit making the finished picture ugly instead of magnificent to behold. I am looking for someone to stump me on any aspect of Gods marvelous work and wonder to bring to pass the salvation and eternal life of mankind. If it cannot be done then even the disbelieved must concede that it is a rational and logical plan.

This should be a simple enough question. What is salvation?

 

[Andywelikandy]

I spent many, many years trying to disprove religion and faith. Frankly, most religions are build upon the interpretations and logic of men, who do, by nature, fall short of the glory of God, thus their doctrines are susceptible to being flawed as well. So religions are easy to disprove, and that is not just a handful, that is all of them. So when we see our coequals, on the other side of the fence, rubbing their hands together in glee, taunting us with the words that religions are slowly fading from our world, we can take solice in the fact that we are best rid of them anyway, none of have authority to act in the name of God. To disprove them is a little like using the scientific method. You have to simply be familiar with the scriptures, which give us and insight to the character and will of God, and have god knowledge of the Plan of Redemption. Like science there are set constants and laws that cannot be change. By those laws we can know what is true and what is false. If the contravene a principle or commandment then they are false.

For example, I listen to a testimony of a man who died and was revived. He gave a detailed account of what happened to him whilst he was dead. A very convincing account as well, but for one detail that exposed it as a fraud, or the source was dubious. He said that he found himself in the presence of God. Now, anyone who knows scriptures would know that it is impossible for a Spirit to be in the presence of God, pre-judgement. Anyone who is familiar with the Plan of Salvation would also know that his claim was fallacious. The Plan of Salvation is like a jig saw puzzle with every piece being unique. Many of our religions have some of the pieces, however, none of them have all the pieces. To disprove them is just a matter of looking at the pieces to see if they are all there. I have yet to find a religion that has all the pieces.

To clarify when I say religion I am referring to denominations in the Christian faith.

Now faith and our personal relationship with God is another story. It cannot be faulted in anyway or form. To be converted by the Holy Ghost, who opens the gates to the pure knowledge of the Plan of Redemption, and to receive that knowledge in all humility and faith in Christ, is to make yourself impervious to the fiery darts of Satan. So, in essence, I am throwing down the gauntlet to anyone who thinks they can disprove the logic of the Plan that was devised by God and accepted by Christ. I am looking for miss-shaped jig saw puzzle pieces that do to fit making the finished picture ugly instead of magnificent to behold. I am looking for someone to stump me on any aspect of Gods marvelous work and wonder to bring to pass the salvation and eternal life of mankind. If it cannot be done then even the disbelieved must concede that it is a rational and logical plan.

Nothing UNclean will ever be allowed to be in the presence of Infinitely Holy God. Heaven where Almighty God resides is so Holy that no sin bearing person will ever dare to enter it. It would be like a south pole of a magnet trying to get close to a south pole of a magnet. The closer it gets the more powerful the repelling.

 

[Thana]

I am throwing down the gauntlet to anyone who thinks they can disprove the logic of the Plan that was devised by God and accepted by Christ. I am looking for miss-shaped jig saw puzzle pieces that do to fit making the finished picture ugly instead of magnificent to behold. I am looking for someone to stump me on any aspect of Gods marvelous work and wonder to bring to pass the salvation and eternal life of mankind. If it cannot be done then even the disbelieved must concede that it is a rational and logical plan.

Ho Hum.
Do you really need an unbelievers validation? They cannot prove, Neither can we, Either way. There is no hard evidence for or against, That's kinda the beauty of it.
I understand you wanting to assert that Theism can be rational and logical, But this was not the way to go about it and didn't really touch on it much anyway.

 

[Sapiens]

Nothing UNclean will ever be allowed to be in the presence of Infinitely Holy God. Heaven where Almighty God resides is so Holy that no sin bearing person will ever dare to enter it. It would be like a south pole of a magnet trying to get close to a south pole of a magnet. The closer it gets the more powerful the repelling.

Err ... this relates to the OP, or any other post, how?

 

[McBell]

So, in essence, I am throwing down the gauntlet to anyone who thinks they can disprove the logic of the Plan that was devised by God and accepted by Christ. I am looking for miss-shaped jig saw puzzle pieces that do to fit making the finished picture ugly instead of magnificent to behold. I am looking for someone to stump me on any aspect of Gods marvelous work and wonder to bring to pass the salvation and eternal life of mankind. If it cannot be done then even the disbelieved must concede that it is a rational and logical plan.

So in essence what you are doing is presenting a Kent Hovind Challenge in which unless someone can convince you that your beliefs are not your beliefs, then your beliefs are true?

Do you not see any problems with that?
Any at all?

 

[Ultimatum]

I spent many, many years trying to disprove religion and faith. Frankly, most religions are build upon the interpretations and logic of men, who do, by nature, fall short of the glory of God, thus their doctrines are susceptible to being flawed as well. So religions are easy to disprove, and that is not just a handful, that is all of them. So when we see our coequals, on the other side of the fence, rubbing their hands together in glee, taunting us with the words that religions are slowly fading from our world, we can take solice in the fact that we are best rid of them anyway, none of have authority to act in the name of God. To disprove them is a little like using the scientific method. You have to simply be familiar with the scriptures, which give us and insight to the character and will of God, and have god knowledge of the Plan of Redemption. Like science there are set constants and laws that cannot be change. By those laws we can know what is true and what is false. If the contravene a principle or commandment then they are false.

For example, I listen to a testimony of a man who died and was revived. He gave a detailed account of what happened to him whilst he was dead. A very convincing account as well, but for one detail that exposed it as a fraud, or the source was dubious. He said that he found himself in the presence of God. Now, anyone who knows scriptures would know that it is impossible for a Spirit to be in the presence of God, pre-judgement. Anyone who is familiar with the Plan of Salvation would also know that his claim was fallacious. The Plan of Salvation is like a jig saw puzzle with every piece being unique. Many of our religions have some of the pieces, however, none of them have all the pieces. To disprove them is just a matter of looking at the pieces to see if they are all there. I have yet to find a religion that has all the pieces.

To clarify when I say religion I am referring to denominations in the Christian faith.

Now faith and our personal relationship with God is another story. It cannot be faulted in anyway or form. To be converted by the Holy Ghost, who opens the gates to the pure knowledge of the Plan of Redemption, and to receive that knowledge in all humility and faith in Christ, is to make yourself impervious to the fiery darts of Satan. So, in essence, I am throwing down the gauntlet to anyone who thinks they can disprove the logic of the Plan that was devised by God and accepted by Christ. I am looking for miss-shaped jig saw puzzle pieces that do to fit making the finished picture ugly instead of magnificent to behold. I am looking for someone to stump me on any aspect of Gods marvelous work and wonder to bring to pass the salvation and eternal life of mankind. If it cannot be done then even the disbelieved must concede that it is a rational and logical plan.

We're not to stump you, you are to stump us with irrefutable evidence of a god.

It would be like me claiming I saw a 5-headed unicorn and telling people to give evidence against it: it's not the point.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Asking for evidence that would 'stump' a belief that is not drawn from evidence is pretty pointless.

It is drawn from evidence. You can't belive in something you don't know.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Nobody has to disprove the "plan" that was supposedly devised by God, it is up to you, the one claiming that such exists, to prove that it is true. Let us know when you plan to actually do so. Thanks.

But you must prove that your luck and magic is true... does that work??

 

[Robert.Evans]

It's hard to stump people who who are self convinced by reading a book. It's not like anything is going to change by personal religious convictions. ;0)

It's called spiritual discernment and is the grace of God. Don't feel so hard done by if you have not received it.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Shifting the burden of proof seems pretty pointless. Why would anyone need to disprove what is unproven?

It is God who proves, not man. You misunderstand .

 

[McBell]

But you must prove that your luck and magic is true... does that work??

You are the one claiming luck and magic...
Care to back it up?

 

[McBell]

It is God who proves, not man. You misunderstand .

God is rather lousy at it, ain't he?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Just like 9/11 conspiracies make lots of sense to conspiracy theorists. The rest of us think they're nuts though.

But intelligence is a better answer than luck and magic me thinks

 

[Robert.Evans]

Not necessarily. I don't find conventional Christianity to be very logical.

You should consider your title perhaps

 

[Robert.Evans]

So in essence what you are doing is presenting a Kent Hovind Challenge in which unless someone can convince you that your beliefs are not your beliefs, then your beliefs are true?

Do you not see any problems with that?
Any at all?

Then you stick with your luck and magic

 

[Robert.Evans]

We're not to stump you, you are to stump us with irrefutable evidence of a god.

It would be like me claiming I saw a 5-headed unicorn and telling people to give evidence against it: it's not the point.

Evidence comes from God, not man. Your argument is hollow. Prove luck and magic bring everything into being... and I mean everything

 

[Robert.Evans]

God is rather lousy at it, ain't he?

He knows your heart, far better than me. Though I think by your words, even I can work out your heart. Hence the reason your mind is closed. So I would say he's pretty good at it really

 

[Robert.Evans]

You are the one claiming luck and magic...
Care to back it up?

Stealing my words again!
Intelligence is not luck and magic. That is what you have. Enjoy.