Jesus did not die on the Cross

[Shad]

I have lost interesting in dialog with you as you link evidence which refutes your position which you promptly ignore when pointed out. You take my arguments about Gnostic Christianity in other threads and present these as your own. You cross reference posts in one of your threads into another thread as you just did with your latest comment. All of your arguments are not your own you just copy/paste arguments on some apologists website or plagiarize people on this forum as you have done with me. This dialog seems to be between myself and whatever website you are using rather then between myself and you. If I want to have a dialog with whatever website you use I would be on it's forums not here.

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus did not die on the Cross


9th Argument – the confusion of NT-Bible/Christian mythology as to the time, date, year of Crucifixion of Jesus.

Christians say NT-Bible is written for the purpose of recording crucifixion of Jesus. Yet Bible is not sure of date, time, day, year of Crucifixion.


The Crucifixion[edit]
Chronology[edit]

"There is no consensus regarding the exact date of the crucifixion of Jesus, although it is generally agreed by biblical scholars that it was on a Friday on or near Passover (Nisan 15), during the governorship of Pontius Pilate (who ruled AD 26–36).[85]Scholars have provided estimates for the year of crucifixion in the range 30–33 AD,[86][87][88] with the majority of modern scholars favouring the date April 7, 30 AD.[89][90] Another popular date is Friday, April 3, 33 AD.[91][92]

Since an observational calendar was used during the time of Jesus, including an ascertainment of the new moon and ripening barley harvest, the exact day or even month for Passover in a given year is subject to speculation.[93][94][not in citation given]. Various approaches have been used to estimate the year of the crucifixion, including the canonical Gospels, the chronology of the life of Paul, as well as different astronomical models.

The consensus of modern scholarship is that the New Testament accounts represent a crucifixion occurring on a Friday, but a Thursday or Wednesday crucifixion have also been proposed.[95][96] Some scholars explain a Thursday crucifixion based on a "double sabbath" caused by an extra Passover sabbath falling on Thursday dusk to Friday afternoon, ahead of the normal weekly Sabbath.[95][97] Some have argued that Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, not Friday, on the grounds of the mention of "three days and three nights" in Matthew before his resurrection, celebrated on Sunday. Others have countered by saying that this ignores the Jewish idiom by which a "day and night" may refer to any part of a 24-hour period, that the expression in Matthew is idiomatic, not a statement that Jesus was 72 hours in the tomb, and that the many references to a resurrection on the third day do not require three literal nights.[95][98]

In Mark 15:25 crucifixion takes place at the third hour (9 a.m.) and Jesus' death at the ninth hour (3 p.m.).[99] However, in John 19:14 Jesus is still before Pilate at the sixth hour.[100] Scholars have presented a number of arguments to deal with the issue, some suggesting a reconciliation, e.g., based on the use of Roman timekeeping in John but not in Mark, yet others have rejected the arguments.[100][101][102] Several notable scholars have argued that the modern precision of marking the time of day should not be read back into the gospel accounts, written at a time when no standardization of timepieces, or exact recording of hours and minutes was available, and time was often approximated to the closest three-hour period.[100][103][104]"

Crucifixion of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Our historian friend has also confirmed it vide post #23:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3948570-post23.html

The creed that "Jesus died a cursed death on the Cross" is a fabrication of Paul, the Church and their associates and has got nothing to do with Jesus and his teachings.

Regards

 

[Redemptionsong]

paarsurrey, given that our present dating system was not in use at the time, it is pretty remarkable that we have the records that allow us to attempt to calculate the exact day of Jesus' crucifixion.

The attempt to erase Paul and the Church from scripture must be one of the worst mistakes made by Muslim scholars. Luke provides a link between the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles, and Acts tells us about the foundation of the Church and the apostleship of Paul to the Gentiles. So all the books are linked and all are scripture, the inspired word of God.

Once you dislocate part of scripture, you end up nullifying it all. So, if we take out Paul and the Church epistles, you effectively deny the prophecy of Jesus Christ, and his purpose on earth.

As I keep saying to you, you face a problem of contradiction. The Qur'an and the Bible do not agree. You cannot follow them both and hope to find harmony.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

the confusion of NT-Bible/Christian mythology as to the time, date, year of Crucifixion of Jesus..

What confusion? Jesus was crucified during the rule of Pontius Pilate (26-36 AD), end of story!
It's the old imprecise calendar that creates uncertainty about the exact date and time.
If they'd wanted, the gospel-writers could easily have cooked up a phoney time to make their stories look good, but they weren't in the habit of making things up, so they let the uncertainty stand which speaks volumes for their honesty and trustworthiness..

 

[paarsurrey]

What confusion? Jesus was crucified during the rule of Pontius Pilate (26-36 AD), end of story!
It's the old imprecise calendar that creates uncertainty about the exact date and time.
If they'd wanted, the gospel-writers could easily have cooked up a phoney time to make their stories look good, but they weren't in the habit of making things up, so they let the uncertainty stand which speaks volumes for their honesty..

You are saying just the opposite they said and did.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I don't believe the scripture is corrupted but I do believe Muslims venerate that myth as though it were true.

I do believe Muslims venerate that myth

Muslim venerate the Revelation G-d made to Jesus; not the corrupted mythological scripture named NT-Bible.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I believe Paul did no resort to trickery and that he did not find mystery in everything. I believe anyone can spout nonsense about anyone but no-one here is likely to see that nonsense as obvious.

Paul did no resort to trickery

Paul exactly started with the trickery- the faked vision on the road to Damascus.

Regards

 

[Redemptionsong]

One-answer, I know it's not an easy idea to digest, but Jesus WAS UNDER THE CURSE of GOD. That's why there was darkness over the land, that's why Jesus quoted Psalm 22!![Please read it!] That's why Jesus DIED. He bore the sin of all who would believe in him as Saviour! Although he was sinless, he allowed himself to become the curse of God. It was only AFTER he had accomplished this punishment for sin, when he was in the grave, that his Father RAISED him to life again. As it was with JONAH.

Now do you understand, HE HAD TO DIE. HE was a sacrificial lamb.

Exodus 12:5,6: Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening [or, between the two evenings].

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Shuttlecraft: but they [the gospel writers] weren't in the habit of making things up, so they let the uncertainty stand which speaks volumes for their honesty

You are saying just the opposite they said and did.

Huh??

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus did not die on the Cross

Arguments from Christians mythology/Scripture: [Summary]

1. Jesus did not fulfill Sign of Jonah, if we take the Christian stance. Please read the argument from post # 109.
2. Jesus' prayers in the Garden were not heard. Please read the argument from post # 153.
3. Jesus' words right on the Cross from post # 188.
4. Jesus was on the Cross for few hours only from post #211.
5. God always hears Jesus’ prayers and Jesus’ prayers were heard from post #246.
6. Who wanted Jesus to be crucified? The Jews From post #246
a. And the selfish Christians Clergy for condonation of their hefty sins. from post # 288.
7. Crucifixion was demanded by the Jews: From pot ##301 .
8. Why crucifixion? Jews wanted to prove Jesus an imposter and a fabricator. From post # 315
9.The confusion of NT-Bible/Christian mythology as to the time, date, year of Crucifixion of Jesus. Post #461

Jesus did not want to die; and why should Jesus die on the Cross and for what?

We are still discussing the above arguments, therefore, while writing a post please quote which argument you are commenting on for clarity of the viewers please.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

One-answer, I know it's not an easy idea to digest, but Jesus WAS UNDER THE CURSE of GOD. That's why there was darkness over the land, that's why Jesus quoted Psalm 22!![Please read it!] That's why Jesus DIED. He bore the sin of all who would believe in him as Saviour! Although he was sinless, he allowed himself to become the curse of God. It was only AFTER he had accomplished this punishment for sin, when he was in the grave, that his Father RAISED him to life again. As it was with JONAH.

Now do you understand, HE HAD TO DIE. HE was a sacrificial lamb.

Exodus 12:5,6: Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening [or, between the two evenings].

but Jesus WAS UNDER THE CURSE of GOD.

Jesus was never under any curse. Why should he be under the curse when he was an innocent human being. Curse and innocence cannot be in one person.

He was under trial as Moses mother was.

Regards

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Everybody KNOWS Jesus was crucified, so a shotgun-blast of assorted consp-theories doesn't prove otherwise..

 

[Redemptionsong]

One-answer,
Keeping the commandments of God IS eternal life, for the WORD of God is eternal life.

Jesus said,'If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.' (John 15:10)

To abide in God's love you must fulfil the law, you must keep the law.

Jesus said, 'Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.' (Matthew 5:48)

Tell me, One-answer, ARE YOU PERFECT? Read Matthew chapter 5 and tell me, do you ever look on a woman to lust? Are you ever angry with your brother? Do you bless them that curse you? Do you pray for them that persecute you?

If you fall short of perfection then you fall short of God.

When you die, will you stand before the judge comfortable in the knowledge that you are PERFECT?

If you conclude you are a SINNER, come back again and we'll talk about it. I came to the same conclusion.

 

[Redemptionsong]

parsurrey,
Look again at Galatians 3:13. You may not like reading from the epistles of Paul, but they harmonise perfectly with all the other scriptures.

'Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.'

The 'curse of the law' means the punishment that results when a guilty verdict is passed. Sinners deserve their punishment, but Jesus has taken the punishment for us. He does so, in order to save people; and he does so through faith. AS it says, 'that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.' This justification through faith does not exclude works, for works should follow faith, just as good fruit comes from good trees.

If you accept that Jesus DIED FOR YOU, you then demonstrate faith in him as the Saviour from sin and death. If you believe he was raised to life, you believe he was the sinless Lamb of God, the Son of God, the one that can send the Holy Spirit and fire.

The Holy Spirit has the power to cleanse you and lead you into perfection. The Holy Spirit ENABLES you to do God's commandments and be perfect.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Deleted

 

[Redemptionsong]

paarsurrey,
Here's a summary of your arguments, alongside a rebuttal of each argument.

1. Jesus did not fulfill Sign of Jonah, if we take the Christian stance. Please read the argument from post # 109.
Jonah was in hell, SO HE WAS DEAD. (Jonah 2:2)

2. Jesus' prayers in the Garden were not heard. Please read the argument from post # 153.
His prayers were heard, but there was no other way to overcome SIN and DEATH, so Jesus accepts his role as Lamb of God. 'Thy will be done'.

3. Jesus' words right on the Cross from post # 188.
When Jesus bore SIN in his flesh, he was the curse of God. 'My God , My God, why hast thou forsaken me.' God and sin cannot coexist. There is no problem with Jesus' words.

4. Jesus was on the Cross for few hours only from post #211.
It was enough to bring about Jesus' death. The soldiers checked he was dead, and pierced him with a spear. The centurion present confirmed his death to Pilate.

5. God always hears Jesus’ prayers and Jesus’ prayers were heard from post #246.
The prayers of Jesus were heard, which is why God raised him from the dead!

6. Who wanted Jesus to be crucified? The Jews From post #246
Both Jews and Romans wanted him crucified. There certainly wasn't a plot to keep Jesus from being crucified for longer. It wasn't necessary, and the bodies had to be down before the Sabbath.

6. And the selfish Christians Clergy for condonation of their hefty sins. from post # 288.
We are all sinners! You need Jesus too.

7. Crucifixion was demanded by the Jews: From pot ##301 .
Already countered.

8. Why crucifixion? Jews wanted to prove Jesus an imposter and a fabricator. From post # 315
It fulfilled the law to have a man die on a tree, the curse of God. It fulfilled the law to have a lamb die at Passover. His blood saves.

9.The confusion of NT-Bible/Christian mythology as to the time, date, year of Crucifixion of Jesus. Post #461
Not really a valid point. The scriptures themselves are very detailed about time, dates and places.The problem with times and dates is ours.

 

[Sabour]

One-answer,
Keeping the commandments of God IS eternal life, for the WORD of God is eternal life.

Jesus said,'If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.' (John 15:10)

To abide in God's love you must fulfil the law, you must keep the law.

Jesus said, 'Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.' (Matthew 5:48)

Tell me, One-answer, ARE YOU PERFECT? Read Matthew chapter 5 and tell me, do you ever look on a woman to lust? Are you ever angry with your brother? Do you bless them that curse you? Do you pray for them that persecute you?

If you fall short of perfection then you fall short of God.

When you die, will you stand before the judge comfortable in the knowledge that you are PERFECT?

If you conclude you are a SINNER, come back again and we'll talk about it. I came to the same conclusion.

Eternal life is reaching heaven. Jesus peace be upon his said that it is granted through keeping the commandments which means following them.

Of course if you keep the commandment and you are a good person you are abide by love.

No I am not perfect and no body is perfect. However, I don't need to believe that someone died for my sins to be forgiven. As a matter of fact we all need God's Mercy and forgiveness to enter heaven because we all make mistakes. The door is always open for true repentance and God's Mercy and forgiveness.

God created as as men and as men we are not perfect. We have desires. But Allah has provided us the way to fight these desires and be on the straight path. If you fall short of perfection means nothing because no body is perfect.

Do you really imagine a world where people should JUST believe that Jesus peace be upon him died for them in order to go to heaven? Do you think this would be a just world?

Isn't it like an open invitation to sinning as much as you want if you BELIEVE that someone died for your sins?

 

[Redemptionsong]

One-answer, you are quite right to say that no man is perfect - ONLY Jesus Christ is perfect and sinless. That's why he is God's only begotten son.

Romans 3:23, ' For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;'

Yet of Jesus Christ it says,'For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.' (Hebrews 4:15)

Jesus said, 'I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?' (John 11:25)

Jesus said unto him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me.'

Jesus is NOT GIVING US FREEDOM TO SIN, HE IS GIVING US FREEDOM TO LOVE.
What did he say to the woman caught in adultery? Did he say she was forgiven and could go and sin as much as she liked? NO! He said, Go and SIN NO MORE. (John 8:11)

Why would Jesus want us to carry on sinning? He gave his life to save us from sin and death. He wants us to follow his commandments - to love God and love our neighbour.

Jesus wants us to follow the commandments sinlessly, but we can't because we are sinners by nature. To be able to follow the commandments sinlessly we must be born-again of God's spirit. That's why the baptism that Jesus came to bring is essential! You must believe and receive the HOLY SPIRIT.

'Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.' (John 3:3)

 

[Desert Snake]

Jesus was never under any curse. Why should he be under the curse when he was an innocent human being. Curse and innocence cannot be in one person.

He was under trial as Moses mother was.

Regards

Was not under the curse, holy guacamole, agreed.

gotta say, I'm not married to the 'crucifixion' narrative, Jesus still proves his Divinity through other means.

 

[Redemptionsong]

By the way, One-answer, you say, 'if you are a good person' you will abide in God's love.

When Jesus was called a good man he made it very clear that only God is good.

'And he [Jesus] said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.' (Matthew 19:17)

Was Jesus saying he was NOT good? NO. He was saying, if I am good then I must be one with God. For only God is good.