Ferguson: Moving on..why none of this will mater...

[Revoltingest]

Funny you should mention that.
For in the news we have a doppelganger which escapes the notice of Obama, Holder,
Sharpton, et al. Circumstances are similar enuf (cop shoots unarmed man), except
that the races are reversed in the Robert Arnold shooting of James Whitehead.
Orange officials will appeal Capt. Robert Arnold's reinstatement - Beaumont Enterprise
UPDATE: Witness in parking lot testifies in Arnold arbitration - Beaumont Enterprise
Whitehead family settles out of court | TheRecordLive

Regardless of the merits of each case, the significance is that before all the facts are out,
sides are taken by so many primarily upon the basis of race, & vehemently supported.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

There are multiple incidents/issues to consider and to form an opinion over.

Hands down, the excessive force utilized by law enforcement during demonstrations is troubling, to say the least and needs to be addressed. If this is the "norm" in Ferguson, it needs to be fixed. Edit to include: The media has depicted this excess force quite well.

These incidents do not necessarily demonstrate Wilson's attitude when he confronted Brown. Until the results of the investigation are in, I'm not willing to form a conclusive opinion as to whether or not Wilson was justified in shooting at Brown.

I'm not interested in labeling Wilson a racist without further evidence to support that he confronted Brown in this vein.

Considering that eye witnesses have provided accounts that do not fully mesh with presented evidence, I don't think it outlandish to require additional information.

Whether or not you've been there or not is irrelevant outside the scope that I care about you as a person and empathize with your pain and concerns. Edit to include: I know that you're sincere in your efforts to promote positive change and that you care about those promoting peace and positive change alongside you.

Edit to include: As you and others protesting were not eye witnesses to the alleged robbery, alleged jaywalking and shooting - you're no more qualified to comment on what happened in factual terms than those of us looking in from the outside.

Michael Brown appeared to make some stupid choices the day that he died. I don't undertand why a cop would shoot someone down for jaywalking alone, which, makes Wilson's account interesting to me and worth learning more about.

I'm not heartless. His mother's face, tear stained and tired was heart breaking. As a mother, my heart goes out to her and those who loved him.

Well, what we have is a preliminary autopsy report, a very very bare bones police incident report by both the Ferguson PD and the St Louis County PD, and I've been waiting on anything forensics offers.

So, if I'm expected to wait for truth, then everyone should...including those who think that the convenience store video is at all relevant to the shooting incident (which it isn't).

I've been waiting for truth, and so little transparency is offered, and an unarmed citizen is dead. People in Ferguson have a LOT to say about how they've been summarily treated by law enforcement. And I've had two friends shot there, while evidence was gathered by law enforcement and no incident report filed on their occurrences.

And folks are offended when I bring up grievances because I'm playing a race card?

************.

Go there and get tear-gassed, have a local church looted by the PD in camo and holding assault weapons up, watch as Wilson supporters have police surrounding them protecting their assembly, chant "Hands up, don't shoot!" while Wilson supporters start chanting "Shoot Shoot Shoot!" in response, and then try to tell me that there isn't something incredibly wrong with this picture.

True, I was not there at the shooting.

But I've been there since then. It was a ****ing war zone.

.

.

.

Understand I'm incredibly upset, and none of this anger is directed at you personally, Dawny. I think out of everyone who disagrees with me on the subject, though, you are the only one who would give me and my perspective more than an ounce of respect.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Why the insistence that Michael Brown wasn't a saint?

Because he wasn't the goody "gentle giant" that some in news media tried to portray him to be. Gentle giants typically wouldn't steal and push around store clerks. The friend that Michael Brown associated with (Dorian Johnson) is no saint either. There are reports of Dorian having a past criminal arrest which includes theft and lying to police.

"In 2011, Johnson was arrested and accused of theft and lying to police about his first name, age and address."
Source: CNN(The last section titled Key Witness Speaks Out).

He was a human being who was shot multiple times unarmed in broad daylight in the middle of the street.

Are these attempts to convince people that he deserved to die in the middle of a street, body left uncovered for hours? He was not given due process for jaywalking (which is why Wilson stopped him in the first place).

Or is the real problem that some on BOTH sides want to paint Michael Brown in a way that would support their preconceived judgement of this case? Some who see his death as justified try to paint him in a negative light; and of course, some who believe otherwise try to paint him in a positive light while also trying to paint the police in a negative light.

A citizen - whether he is considered a "thug"-POS-criminal or a teddy-bear-gentle-giant - was shot unarmed and the Ferguson PD has been handling this case with all kinds of Wrong from the sublime to the atrocious.

Not to mention that we have seen - and felt - tear gas used on citizens who are peacefully assembling by law enforcement sworn to protect and serve it's community.

I've BEEN there. I have family there. I have friends there. The desire to categorize people there as "looters", "thugs", "criminals" is beyond ridiculous now.

Are you trying to caste the police in a bad light to imply that officer Wilson also used excessive force when he killed Mike Brown? It's impossible for the residents of Fergueson to also do wrong, as well? Perhaps both Michael and officer Wilson broke the law, Michael assaulted store clerk AND officer Wilson, and the officer Wilson handled that excessively. Michael obviously paid the ultimate price.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Outhouse (forum member) mentioned a specific scenario so bringing up a different scenario(s) doesn't refute his point. It is justifiable for anyone to shoot another person if they are being physically assaulted or are under threat of bodily harm. This is what some witnesses reported in the Michael Brown case.

It pointing out that police can be terribly abusive. When police, who are supposed to be healthy, fit and strong for their job resort to using a taser on an elderly man, how is it anything but abuse?

You want there job?

I don't.

I don't want their job. But it doesn't mean I can't call fowl when I see it. Something must be done about police using excessive force and killing unarmed people, criminals or otherwise. In NY a police officer literally choked a man to death. There are many ways to restrain people without resorting to a lethal hold. In the case of Micheal Brown, shooting someone who is unarmed six times is excessive. Why was he shot more than once if his life was in danger? Is Wilson just a really bad aim? Is he unaware that one shot, just about anywhere, will at least stagger all but the strongest of assailants?

 

[dawny0826]

Well, what we have is a preliminary autopsy report, a very very bare bones police incident report by both the Ferguson PD and the St Louis County PD, and I've been waiting on anything forensics offers.

So, if I'm expected to wait for truth, then everyone should...including those who think that the convenience store video is at all relevant to the shooting incident (which it isn't).

I agree with you.

I've been waiting for truth, and so little transparency is offered, and an unarmed citizen is dead. People in Ferguson have a LOT to say about how they've been summarily treated by law enforcement. And I've had two friends shot there, while evidence was gathered by law enforcement and no incident report filed on their occurrences.

This is a problem that needs to be addressed. If law enforcement isn't doing its job to fairly protect the people - change needs to happen. As a Libertarian, I assure you that I get this and fully support change when government cannot or will not preserve the liberties of the people while serving.

I can't pretend to know how this can best be solved, though. I wish I had the answers.

And folks are offended when I bring up grievances because I'm playing a race card?

I don't think that you have. Others seemingly are.

FH was essentially accused of racism for supporting police action against those who rioted and vandalized while others were peacefully protesting. In those types of situations, if at large enough scale, such police force might be warranted. He and I both agree that the force used against the majority who have protested/demonstrated has been excessive.

Go there and get tear-gassed, have a local church looted by the PD in camo and holding assault weapons up, watch as Wilson supporters have police surrounding them protecting their assembly, chant "Hands up, don't shoot!" while Wilson supporters start chanting "Shoot Shoot Shoot!" in response, and then try to tell me that there isn't something incredibly wrong with this picture.

I don't need to go there. I think the media has done a fine enough job of depicting excess force by law enforcement. I don't discount this in any way.

Wilson supporters have the right to retort with whatever they want. Right or wrong, it's their right to support Wilson.

I remain open minded to the possibility that Wilson may have been following protocol. Clearly, there's concern with this police department's protocol, regardless.

True, I was not there at the shooting.

But I've been there since then. It was a ****ing war zone.

Understand I'm incredibly upset, and none of this anger is directed at you personally, Dawny. I think out of everyone who disagrees with me on the subject, though, you are the only one who would give me and my perspective more than an ounce of respect.

I don't discount your perspective. I read your FB posts. I've been reading what you and your friends are doing and that's the positive kind of stuff that will resonate with people long after this is over.

As I've said, there's multiple, complex issues that need to be considered and addressed. Approaching this situation cautiously doesn't negate the points that I think most of us here agree on.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Apparently the Ferguson police had dashcams and bodycams available, but the dozy Chief of Police left them sitting in a storeroom and never issued them..

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Because he wasn't the goody "gentle giant" that some in news media tried to portray him to be. Gentle giants typically wouldn't steal and push around store clerks. The friend that Michael Brown associated with (Dorian Johnson) is no saint either. There are reports of Dorian having a past criminal arrest which includes theft and lying to police.

"In 2011, Johnson was arrested and accused of theft and lying to police about his first name, age and address."
Source: CNN(The last section titled Key Witness Speaks Out).



Or is the real problem that some on BOTH sides want to paint Michael Brown in a way that would support their preconceived judgement of this case? Some who see his death as justified try to paint him in a negative light; and of course, some who believe otherwise try to paint him in a positive light while also trying to paint the police in a negative light.



Are you trying to caste the police in a bad light to imply that officer Wilson also used excessive force when he killed Mike Brown? It's impossible for the residents of Fergueson to also do wrong, as well? Perhaps both Michael and officer Wilson broke the law, Michael assaulted store clerk AND officer Wilson, and the officer Wilson handled that excessively. Michael obviously paid the ultimate price.

Question, ever been tear gassed and had a couple dozen assault rifles pointed at you?

In a residential neighborhood?

By the police department?

For not marching an failing to follow the "no static assembly" bs mandate?

There is no need for me to cast the PD in a bad light. I think they're doing a fine job on their own.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Apparently the Ferguson police had dashcams and bodycams available, but the dozy Chief of Police left them sitting in a storeroom and never issued them..

I am a strong supporter of such things, so long as they are submitted, no questions asked, whenever a defendant requests them. That is probably one of the greatest tools to protect both police and civilians. And because I have seen so many cops use their lights just long enough to get through a red light, each and every time they use their lights and sirens should be tracked.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Question, ever been tear gassed and had a couple dozen assault rifles pointed at you?

In a residential neighborhood?

By the police department?

For not marching an failing to follow the "no static assembly" bs mandate?

There is no need for me to cast the PD in a bad light. I think they're doing a fine job on their own.

Since you want to be biased and talk bad about cops let me show you the bad in some of the Ferguson residents. Let everyone view the other side and decide for themselves if the police overreacted or if the actions of Ferguson residents is the problem.

Law abiding officer Wilson supporter attacked by close-minded Ferguson residents:
[youtube]b5bhWARy0QI[/youtube]
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b5bhWARy0QI

Ferguson residents' looting:
[youtube]_w515m7Wpqc[/youtube]
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_w515m7Wpqc

Here's Captain Ron Johnson who is from Ferguson:
[youtube]OCZ6zikvJQo[/youtube]
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OCZ6zikvJQo

 

[s2a]

Apparently the Ferguson police had dashcams and bodycams available, but the dozy Chief of Police left them sitting in a storeroom and never issued them..

Is that verified as a fact?

Just curious...

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Because he wasn't the goody "gentle giant" that some in news media tried to portray him to be. Gentle giants typically wouldn't steal and push around store clerks. The friend that Michael Brown associated with (Dorian Johnson) is no saint either. There are reports of Dorian having a past criminal arrest which includes theft and lying to police.

So does Officer Darren Wilson's record factor into the equation too?

 

[s2a]

OP was, and remains...

...well in short, all the protests, violence, vandalism in the wake of the shooting of Michael Brown.

In short, it was completely lawful under Missouri code to shoot an unarmed man in the street at mid day, so long as the officer can testify (not even proven mind you) that he may have felt himself to be threatened. or even harmed by any attacking individual.This is no special exemption mind you. This is the reality of Missouri state law...yet another "stand your ground" state.

Section 563-031 Use of force in defense of persons.

Expanded self-defense laws

Missouri House passes change in self-defense 'castle doctrine' law | KMOV.com St. Louis

Agree or disagree, this is LAW. Period, End of rebuttal. If you disagree with such, then um, write your congressman and senators that voted in favor.

Note that within that law, a police officers testimony counts just as much, if not more, than even 100 others that may testify otherwise, Again, it's current law.

Courts are FORCED to do so. This is not an option.

Even in cases such as this, even jury nullification CAN NOT apply. The "prosecution must not only "Prove" that a suspect had no reasonable expectation of harm, but must also "prove" beyond any reasonable doubt that the "victim" made NO actions to cause the victim to fear for ("their") life. NONE.

Good luck with that. It ain't gonna happen, and it's the law,

Only changing the consequences of gun violence will alter these laws.

*sigh*

Ya'll were saying?

 

[AgnosticBoy]

So does Officer Darren Wilson's record factor into the equation too?

Yes it can depending on what it is.

Question, ever been tear gassed and had a couple dozen assault rifles pointed at you?

In a residential neighborhood?

By the police department?

For not marching an failing to follow the "no static assembly" bs mandate?

There is no need for me to cast the PD in a bad light. I think they're doing a fine job on their own.

I question why you would even dial 911 seeing some of the negative comments here about police.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Yes it can depending on what it is.


I question why you would even dial 911 seeing some of the negative comments here about police.

Coming from somebody who thinks yelling at a protestor is "attacking." LOL

 

[Shadow Wolf]

OP was, and remains...

...well in short, all the protests, violence, vandalism in the wake of the shooting of Michael Brown.

In short, it was completely lawful under Missouri code to shoot an unarmed man in the street at mid day, so long as the officer can testify (not even proven mind you) that he may have felt himself to be threatened. or even harmed by any attacking individual.This is no special exemption mind you. This is the reality of Missouri state law...yet another "stand your ground" state.

Section 563-031 Use of force in defense of persons.

Expanded self-defense laws

Missouri House passes change in self-defense 'castle doctrine' law | KMOV.com St. Louis

Agree or disagree, this is LAW. Period, End of rebuttal. If you disagree with such, then um, write your congressman and senators that voted in favor.

Note that within that law, a police officers testimony counts just as much, if not more, than even 100 others that may testify otherwise, Again, it's current law.

Courts are FORCED to do so. This is not an option.

Even in cases such as this, even jury nullification CAN NOT apply. The "prosecution must not only "Prove" that a suspect had no reasonable expectation of harm, but must also "prove" beyond any reasonable doubt that the "victim" made NO actions to cause the victim to fear for ("their") life. NONE.

Good luck with that. It ain't gonna happen, and it's the law,

Only changing the consequences of gun violence will alter these laws.

*sigh*

Ya'll were saying?

And it still remains that just because it's the law doesn't mean it's right. Of course people should have the right to defend themselves, but shooting someone six times is excessive.

 

[Father Heathen]

Question, ever been tear gassed and had a couple dozen assault rifles pointed at you.

I haven't, but I haven't looted or vandalized people's businesses, either.

 

[Father Heathen]

So does Officer Darren Wilson's record factor into the equation too?

If his record hints at a history of misconduct, incompetence, and/or corruption, then of course it does.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Coming from somebody who thinks yelling at a protestor is "attacking." LOL

If the police weren't there to provide protection for the one police supporter in the middle of a crowd of those who are heated about a police shooting, how do you think that would've turned out?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

If the police weren't there to provide protection for the one police supporter in the middle of a crowd of those who are heated about a police shooting, how do you think that would've turned out?

A bunch of yelling. Know why?

I've seen it.

Your attempts at painting Ferguson residents as a community full of "criminals" is duly noted.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

I haven't, but I haven't looted or vandalized people's businesses, either.

Precisely although I would even go further seeing how bad crime got during hurricane Katrina with even many police running away (LA riots, as well). So you can't even rely on police all of the time. I'd not only militarize the police but also would be for militarizing myself and other law abiding citizens. I'm assuming body armor and assault rifle is all I'd need until I get a learner's permit to take off in an armored tank.