Science 3, God 0

[Mycroft]

People all around the world every day pray and pray for their cancer, leukemia or HIV to be miraculously taken away. It never happens. Ever.

In the meantime, however, Science has cured both:

Scientists Create Genetically Modified Cells That Protect Against HIV

HIV cleared in 2nd baby.

CAR T-Cell Immunotherapy for ALL - National Cancer Institute

Living Drug beats cancer

Thoughts?

 

[Contemplative Cat]

some would say God made such diseases
to balance out the human population.
Human should be only a few million, but instead are 8billion

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Doesn't really say anything about the effectiveness of God (though it does speak to its morality). Prayer seems to be an ineffective means of attaining divine intervention though.

some would say God made such diseases
to balance out the human population.
Human should be only a few million, but instead are 8billion

Where did you get your numbers? Obviously if humans "should" only be a certain number there would be a valid argument for it.

 

[Contemplative Cat]

For thousands upon thousands of years, low birth rates and lack of modern medicine kept humans in check(balanced with the rest of the people/species)

In modern times populations have
exploded throwing the entire planet
into An ecological survival mode.

Let see what happens next.

 

[Mycroft]

Where did you get your numbers? Obviously if humans "should" only be a certain number there would be a valid argument for it.

There's never been a definitive number. Numerous scientists over the years have claimed a carrying capacity from 2 billion to 40 billion.

 

[George-ananda]

People all around the world every day pray and pray for their cancer, leukemia or HIV to be miraculously taken away. It never happens. Ever.

I disagree that it never happens but miracle cures are rare. But the fact that they do happen is very important in forming my view of the universe. Certainly our bodies were meant to be short and temporary and part of nature's struggles and there's a wisdom behind that.

In the meantime, however, Science has cured both:


Thoughts?

I'm pro-science too.

 

[ranvirk]

I disagree that it never happens but miracle cures are rare. But the fact that they do happen is very important in forming my view of the universe. Certainly our bodies were meant to be short and temporary and part of nature's struggles and there's a wisdom behind that.



I'm pro-science too.

No miracles don't happen in real life, when we talk about miracle we only talk about of lack of understanding of the way the body or universe work. It simply means we need to work harder than before to understand it..

 

[Quintessence]

No miracles don't happen in real life, when we talk about miracle we only talk about of lack of understanding of the way the body or universe work. It simply means we need to work harder than before to understand it..

The word miracle is actually used in many different fashions by folks. I've heard of the fashions being classified as "strong" miracles and "weak" miracles.

A "strong" miracle seems to be what most hardline "skeptics" claim does not exist - something completely inexplicable and supernaturalistic.

A "weak" miracle is something that can quite feasibly have a naturalistic explanation, but inspires a sense of sublime or magical awe in the beholder.

I don't think it can reasonably be argued that weak miracles don't happen given it's a very human emotional response to something wondrous. Strong miracles are another matter. Personally, I prefer to fence-sit on this one, because I don't particularly care given I don't use the word "miracle" to classify events in my path. For me, all things that happen are of the gods. It makes no difference if it is scientific or not because the gods govern science itself. Thus, I had to laugh at the thread title, because for me, the score would always read: Science 3, Gods 3. They're the same thing to me.

 

[George-ananda]

No miracles don't happen in real life, when we talk about miracle we only talk about of lack of understanding of the way the body or universe work. It simply means we need to work harder than before to understand it..

I agree and disagree with your comment.

I agree that ultimately there are no 'miracles' in the universe because everything has a reason even if we can't see it from our limited perspective.

I disagree because I think you are implying that everything has a physical only explanation and we just have to work to find it. I believe entities and forces above the physical plane do exist and are the ultimate cause of many things we call 'miracles'.

 

[oldbadger]

People all around the world every day pray and pray for their cancer, leukemia or HIV to be miraculously taken away. It never happens. Ever.

In the meantime, however, Science has cured both:

Scientists Create Genetically Modified Cells That Protect Against HIV

HIV cleared in 2nd baby.

CAR T-Cell Immunotherapy for ALL - National Cancer Institute

Living Drug beats cancer

Thoughts?

Miraculous!!
And a future hell on Earth....

But miraculous events do happen.... you just don't notice them. I did.....
I injured my back in a motorcycle accident in 1983. By 1994 it became more painful, increasing into agony by 2013. I could not walk for the first hour of any day. Most powerful painkillers could do nothing. A herbalist suggested black-pepper. A yoga teacher showed me exercises. An NHS physiotherapist could not make any difference. I tried acupuncture. My doctor could only prescribe more painkillers and anti-inflammatories. It looked like ending my job and getting a wheelchair.
One evening last August I stood up after dinner, expecting the usual agonies, and...... nothing...... perfect movement and no pain..... nothing. I haven't taken a painkiller since. I kept my (very physical) job.
I give thanks each and every day......
If, just before I had stood up, back in August, somebody had touched me and said that my sins were forgiven, I would be a follower today...... As it is I just believe in miracles.

 

[George-ananda]

Miraculous!!
And a future hell on Earth....

But miraculous events do happen.... you just don't notice them. I did.....
I injured my back in a motorcycle accident in 1983. By 1994 it became more painful, increasing into agony by 2013. I could not walk for the first hour of any day. Most powerful painkillers could do nothing. A herbalist suggested black-pepper. A yoga teacher showed me exercises. An NHS physiotherapist could not make any difference. I tried acupuncture. My doctor could only prescribe more painkillers and anti-inflammatories. It looked like ending my job and getting a wheelchair.
One evening last August I stood up after dinner, expecting the usual agonies, and...... nothing...... perfect movement and no pain..... nothing. I haven't taken a painkiller since. I kept my (very physical) job.
I give thanks each and every day......
If, just before I had stood up, back in August, somebody had touched me and said that my sins were forgiven, I would be a follower today...... As it is I just believe in miracles.

Yeah but the dog part of the story is what made it even more intriguing to me....

 

[Mycroft]

Miraculous!!
And a future hell on Earth....

But miraculous events do happen.... you just don't notice them. I did.....
I injured my back in a motorcycle accident in 1983. By 1994 it became more painful, increasing into agony by 2013. I could not walk for the first hour of any day. Most powerful painkillers could do nothing. A herbalist suggested black-pepper. A yoga teacher showed me exercises. An NHS physiotherapist could not make any difference. I tried acupuncture. My doctor could only prescribe more painkillers and anti-inflammatories. It looked like ending my job and getting a wheelchair.
One evening last August I stood up after dinner, expecting the usual agonies, and...... nothing...... perfect movement and no pain..... nothing. I haven't taken a painkiller since. I kept my (very physical) job.
I give thanks each and every day......
If, just before I had stood up, back in August, somebody had touched me and said that my sins were forgiven, I would be a follower today...... As it is I just believe in miracles.

What is god doing healing your bad back when there are thousands of children dying of cancer each day crying out to god for a Miracle?

 

[Farrukh]

I believe that human beings were sent here for test, as God Almighty tells us in Holy Book, “[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving” Quran 67:2
If for example, some poor guy has got cancer, he has not even enough money for going hospital, it is now a test for him whether he praises God Almighty in that condition or not, and it is test for other people who know him, whether they help him or not. It is also test for doctors if they pay attention to him or not,……..
And it is clear that diseases are also a mean of test, and every disease comes with cure, last and final prophet of God told us about 1400 years ago "There is no disease that Allah has created, except that He also has created its treatment."(Al-Bukhari)
There were lot many diseases at that time for which no treatment was discovered, how true prophets were, now we see, everyday pharmaceutical industry comes up with new medicines for diseases that were not possible to cure in past. It makes my belief more strong.

 

[shawn001]

So your god gives you horrible cancer as a test?

Or Ebola and blood comes out your eyes and orifices and your organs basically melt?

A lot of people die before a "cure" comes along.

Why would an omnipotent God need to test anything if that said god already knows everything and can do anything?

Why would that omnipotent God create so many different religions?

 

[psychoslice]

Yep prayer never helped anyone.

 

[shawn001]

Yep prayer never helped anyone.

Actually I know what your saying here, but

Prayer can help people by making them feel happy, so biologically it can.

Not because something is answering back that anyone knows about though.

 

[Farrukh]

Why would that omnipotent God create so many different religions?

Yes, he can give me whatever disease he likes, I'm supposed to praise him in all conditions. If I have done good deeds and followed Allah's commandments then death will take me to better place, I will die smiling.
why God created different religions? God has created only one religion. Muslim means a person who surrenders to God. All messengers and all those who followed them were Muslims, but name 'Muslim' was given for the first time in the age of Abraham peace be upon him. Abraham's son Isac and Isac's son Jacob ( may peace be upon them all) were all Muslims. And Jacob begat all tribes of Banu Israil. And last messenger came with same religion. In the age of last and final messenger, Jews and Christians were debating with each other, Jews were saying Abraham was a Jew and Christians were arguing that Abraham was a Christian, and we have beautiful answer in last book of God almighty
"Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim [submitting to Allah ]. And he was not of the polytheists. " Quran 3:67

 

[psychoslice]

Actually I know what your saying here, but

Prayer can help people by making them feel happy, so biologically it can.

Not because something is answering back that anyone knows about though.

yes I think I would agree with that, its more or less like a placebo effect.

 

[shawn001]

yes I think I would agree with that, its more or less like a placebo effect.

Actually in the Buddhist monk brain Scans and meditation parts of the brain involved in happiness were larger then those who did not meditate. It can also clear your mind, like rebooting the computer.

Part of this is chemical reactions as well. They trigger some of the same parts of the brain involved in addiction. Some people replace addictions with religion they both reward some of the same parts of the brain and brain chemicals.

The placebo effect however is very strong as well and should never be overlooked and should be better understood in neurobiology.

 

[Farrukh]

Yep prayer never helped anyone.

who said that? I can give you many examples when prayers were answered immediately.

there are three possibilities,
1. you will get whatever you are praying for.
2. the thing you are asking may not be good for you, so you will not get it, not getting that will be in your benefit.
3. you will get reward hereafter as prayer is also a form of worship. i will ask you for something only if i know that you can give me that thing. Similarly i will ask God for something if I believe that he has power and ability to provide me that thing.