astral projection is biblical

[Windwalker]

Not everyone has the same spiritual gifts; St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12,
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best[d] gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

Just as you can have a four-year-old who can play Tchaikovsky, whereas a forty-year-old who was never good at piano can barely play Mary Had a Little Lamb, and some other adult can also play Tchaikovsky after years of practice. Each person was made differently, and we each have our own aptitudes, affinities and abilities.

I haven't really formed my thoughts too well yet to this, though I have pondered it for some time. Is spiritual development a line of development like music, or math, or athletics, where you have those with exceptional aptitudes towards those? Is this true of spiritual development as well?

On the one hand, everyone is spiritual by default. It is not an ability. To be spiritual is really simply to be aware. It is an awareness that sees through the masks to the soul of what is its basic essence. It is an existential thing, and therefore common to every human that exists. But not everyone opens to that. It really is more a matter of something that happens that makes one willing and compelled to look.

If that something happens and the person is drawn to pursue this inner knowledge, then I suppose we can begin to talk about 'skill's. And this really is where it absolutely comes down to the individual. It is a process of self-discovery that you alone have to walk. There are those that can guide us to different practices, but ultimately you have to find that within yourself through that process. I see that as a combination of firstly, a deep desire for that Unity that compels us to seek with all our hearts, willing to pour ourselves out to drink of that Water. Secondly, a deep commitment with which we bring our intention to this path, keeping ourselves on it to listen, to learn, to seek, and to grow. With those, we draw from the knowledge of others to open to ourselves to hear what needs to be done. I think that skill is something that comes through consistent practice.

Does someone easily know how to do everything in reverse of what we normally do (which is what the spiritual path is, actually)? Are there those born saints, born sages? I would say not, but I would say there are those who have that 'call' at an early age, and perhaps a mind more well-suited for the highly non-linear reality of spiritual knowledge. Very concrete-literal thinking is very difficult to put this "new wine" of spirit, in the old skins of worldly thinking. This does not mean that cannot have spiritual experience, but to think spiritually does require breaking out of the box, to say the least! Those boxes are created by our mind, and spirit transcends the mind.

One thing that came up in conversation with my friend yesterday in fact, was that one thing that seems common with the more spiritually developed, or advanced, is that of creativity. It doesn't have to do with intelligence. But it seems those who 'hear' and 'listen' to spirit, are more intuitive, fluid, and creative both in thought and in living life. There is a certain freedom of movement. And that comes as little surprise considering the verse, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". That liberty is Freedom itself.

Anyway, thanks for letting me throw out these musings. It's helped me a little just putting it into words to look at, at least.

What do you think of these thoughts my friend?

 

[Jollybear]

Tell me, is driving a car the same as flying a Boeing 747? They're the same in that they both require operating a vehicle, true. And you can do both safely. But one requires much more training and preparation than the other.

Ok, so this sounds like your indirectly admitting that astral projection is safe, just as long as one trains and prepares enough? Plus if i may add, i think your analogy does not accurately compare, i would say it's more like driving a bike vs driving a car (car being astral projection). But even if it is like driving a car vs a boeing 747, still, that just means we train for it. Plus to astral project, that in itself takes training to do so, you cannot pull it off WITHOUT the training, so....yea.

Here is another comparison to what i would say would be a safety issue. Someone takes drugs to induce astral projection, or they ask the devil for help. Obviously those two things would be "unsafe" it would be compared to someone trying to drive a 747 plain without having trained for it. But actually training and meditating and doing the techniques to induce astral projection, i cannot see how that is unsafe?

Actually, the third doesn't raise my brow at all, shocking as you may find that.

Well, that is good then. I would have thought it would have raised a brow, it has for many christians I have talked to in person. Vertually all christians i have talked to in person it has raised a brow. It's very ODD to me that this has been the case.

If you are doing whatever it is you're doing while knowing precisely what you are doing, and maintaining full awareness and control over yourself, and doing it in cooperation with God and with God as the focus, then that would be much more acceptable.

Right, i agree. To clarify, this is what I would be doing, or anyone who induces astral projection. This is what i did anyhow, i will briefly state: visualize or imagine energy flowing through your body, fingers, hands, toes, torso, ect. Breath, relax the body, let the body fall asleep, keep your mind mentally awake. Come into a lucid dream, then when you come into a lucid dream, imagine comming out of your body. That's all you do, then magically, it happens, and it's no longer like a lucid dream, it's like waking reality life, pop, your out of your body. Now if i do that, which is the method to come out, then once i'm out i start praying to God saying, Lord come, fill me afresh with your Spirit. Their, i just focused on God in the experience. Does that sound evil or OK or good to you? Anything here i said that sounds wrong?

In fact, in Orthodox tradition, there are those who constantly remember God and pray to Him ceaselessly while doing all of the things that you mentioned above. So even simple things like pushing carts into the vestibule at a grocery store, weeding the garden, or playing with the cat, become a means of communion to God. The spiritual becomes decompartmentalized, and our spiritual life with God spills over into everything we do, no matter how mundane or ordinary. And this communion with God turns the mundane and ordinary into the wondrous and extraordinary, as we begin to glimpse this world as God intended it, and as we begin to see God's Light and Presence in all created things. The world itself begins to reveal itself as an icon of God, as we see the Kingdom of God within His creation.

Ok, i can go with that, im not against this, however at the same time, their is times when i am doing things, if i am praising God and thanking God and talking to him while doing all the above listed stuff, sometimes i find it hard to focus on what i am doing, and then i feel i am giving God a deservice by not giving him my FULL attention. So i see myself compartmentalizing my life. When i pray, that means NOTHING else is going to be interupting me or having room for my time, i will be giving God my FULL attention. I find when i give myself to something in full focus, then i can do it better, and isn't that how he wants us to do whatever we do? To do it with all our heart? Remember it was said of King David "whatever your hand finds to do, do it with ALL your heart, for the Lord is with you".

God lets us do whatever we want. Some things are gifts from Him, and He will bestow them upon us if we ask or when He sees fit to give them, but on the whole, He allows us to make our own decisions about the path we want to take.

Do you mean he lets us do whatever and allows us to make decisions out of free will, or out of approval? I think what i am getting at is, what is your view on astral projection BY ITSELF, apart from motives, focus, or anything else. Is the actual thing itself aproved of God in your view? Some Christians call it witchcraft, the practice itself, but i can't see that.

Even if you pray for something not in accordance with God's Will, you are still seeking communion with Him, and you are still calling upon His name. You are still seeking Him. As I said, prayer is never unsafe, no matter what we pray for or about; there are plenty of people who curse God in their prayers to Him, because they know that God already knows what's in our hearts, so we might as well tell Him straight up exactly what's on our minds.

Well, think of it for a moment, if we cursed God in our prayer, yes, that would be unsafe, here is why: It seperates us from him, and when we are seperated from him, satan can then get a foothold upon our mind, and that is UNSAFE. So my point stands that you don't have to leave your body in order to be unsafe spiritually.

The purpose of muscles is not to be exercised and flexed, the purpose of muscles is to use them for work.

Muscles have multy purposes, their purposes are based on what their DESIGNED to do. So what can they do? They can flex, they can exercise, and they can do work. They can do all of that and all of that is good for them. Exercising muscles also DOES make them WORK. Actually it helps you HOLD on to muscle as you grow older and not only that, it helps build them stronger FOR work. And it creates more health to the matabolism. So in the same way, why would it be any different with the spiritual muscles? Like the mind, the soul, the spirit, exercising the mind to astral project would be good for the mind, to sharpen it. God designed it to be sharp and strong.

Then that is between them and God. I've never done astral projection, so I wouldn't know. But I'm generally cautious about condoning things that I don't understand.

ok, well based on your understanding of it now, i told you how astral projection is achieved, based on the techniques that i told you, you now briefly understand it, so, what do you see wrong in it if anything?

 

[Shiranui117]

I haven't really formed my thoughts too well yet to this, though I have pondered it for some time. Is spiritual development a line of development like music, or math, or athletics, where you have those with exceptional aptitudes towards those? Is this true of spiritual development as well?

I would say yes. Let's say for example, a person cannot do anything more than basic math or algebra to save their life, but they're quite gifted in the area of foreign languages and history. They can't do track or cross-country, but they can do martial arts. And even within martial arts, they can't do the explosive, powerful fancy kicks of Taekwondo, but they can do things like Aikido or Hapkido, or perhaps tai chi and wing chun. They have a natural affinity or difficulty with each of these things, and so they are predisposed to developing one way or the other.

Just the same, you may have someone who is able to cultivate silence in their hearts, and be an ascetic, spending all their times in communion with God. Or you may have someone who is gifted with insight, and can see the condition of another's soul and offer help and support accordingly. Or you may have someone who is able to contemplate and expound upon the Scriptures. You may have mystics, but one may be a visionary mystic, another is an ordinary mystic, and another is a direct mystic.

A good way to think about this is the Parable of the Talents. Each servant was given a different amount of money to use. Just the same, we're each given a different set of spiritual gifts, or a different amount of ability in each of the spiritual gifts. These do need to be cultivated, and we all need a teacher to train us. God is that Teacher, but the other, more experienced students of the Teacher in the realm of what we're trying to cultivate can also be a source of advice. In martial arts, higher-rank students often help the lower-rank students, but the master is the one who is really the teacher; the higher-ranks are merely assistants to the master in teaching the inexperienced.

On the one hand, everyone is spiritual by default. It is not an ability. To be spiritual is really simply to be aware. It is an awareness that sees through the masks to the soul of what is its basic essence. It is an existential thing, and therefore common to every human that exists. But not everyone opens to that. It really is more a matter of something that happens that makes one willing and compelled to look.

Agreed. We are both body and spirit.

If that something happens and the person is drawn to pursue this inner knowledge, then I suppose we can begin to talk about 'skill's. And this really is where it absolutely comes down to the individual. It is a process of self-discovery that you alone have to walk. There are those that can guide us to different practices, but ultimately you have to find that within yourself through that process. I see that as a combination of firstly, a deep desire for that Unity that compels us to seek with all our hearts, willing to pour ourselves out to drink of that Water. Secondly, a deep commitment with which we bring our intention to this path, keeping ourselves on it to listen, to learn, to seek, and to grow. With those, we draw from the knowledge of others to open to ourselves to hear what needs to be done. I think that skill is something that comes through consistent practice.

I would say that no one can tell us what our spiritual path should be (unless someone is gifted with such insight), but there are certainly those who can help us along that path.

Does someone easily know how to do everything in reverse of what we normally do (which is what the spiritual path is, actually)? Are there those born saints, born sages? I would say not, but I would say there are those who have that 'call' at an early age, and perhaps a mind more well-suited for the highly non-linear reality of spiritual knowledge. Very concrete-literal thinking is very difficult to put this "new wine" of spirit, in the old skins of worldly thinking. This does not mean that cannot have spiritual experience, but to think spiritually does require breaking out of the box, to say the least! Those boxes are created by our mind, and spirit transcends the mind.

Very true. I would also say that we are all born with the ultimate goal of becoming Saints.

One thing that came up in conversation with my friend yesterday in fact, was that one thing that seems common with the more spiritually developed, or advanced, is that of creativity. It doesn't have to do with intelligence. But it seems those who 'hear' and 'listen' to spirit, are more intuitive, fluid, and creative both in thought and in living life. There is a certain freedom of movement. And that comes as little surprise considering the verse, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". That liberty is Freedom itself.

This could be true, to an extent. I don't think creativity is always associated with spirituality, though spirituality can certainly give inspiration for the creativity.

Anyway, thanks for letting me throw out these musings. It's helped me a little just putting it into words to look at, at least.

No problem! I'm enjoying this conversation so far.

 

[Shiranui117]

Plus to astral project, that in itself takes training to do so, you cannot pull it off WITHOUT the training, so....yea.

Fair enough.

But actually training and meditating and doing the techniques to induce astral projection, i cannot see how that is unsafe?

Preparing the techniques for inducing an astral projection is different than the astral projection itself, and I'm sure that even you would agree with this. It's like learning to dive without first knowing what it's like to be in the water.

Well, that is good then. I would have thought it would have raised a brow, it has for many christians I have talked to in person. Vertually all christians i have talked to in person it has raised a brow. It's very ODD to me that this has been the case.

Let me guess, most of the Christians you've talked to in person have all been Protestants, non-mystical Anglicans, or non-mystical Roman Catholics, right? Talking to those two groups is nothing like talking to an Orthodox Christian or a Catholic/Anglican versed in Christianity's rich mystical tradition.

Right, i agree. To clarify, this is what I would be doing, or anyone who induces astral projection. This is what i did anyhow, i will briefly state: visualize or imagine energy flowing through your body, fingers, hands, toes, torso, ect. Breath, relax the body, let the body fall asleep, keep your mind mentally awake.

How does the body fall asleep while the mind is awake? What does it feel like? How do you know when you've done it? Should you be sitting or lying down, or even standing? I've heard of this, but I've never been able to figure out how it works.

Also, you don't have to "visualize" or "imagine" energy flowing through your body. It is flowing through your body. You just need to perceive it and be aware of it. Then again, I'm speaking as a person who believes in qi/ki/chi...

Come into a lucid dream, then when you come into a lucid dream, imagine comming out of your body. That's all you do, then magically, it happens, and it's no longer like a lucid dream, it's like waking reality life, pop, your out of your body. Now if i do that, which is the method to come out, then once i'm out i start praying to God saying, Lord come, fill me afresh with your Spirit. Their, i just focused on God in the experience. Does that sound evil or OK or good to you? Anything here i said that sounds wrong?

No. Sounds like a much smaller scale of someone getting caught up to the third heaven in one of Paul's Epistles, though I forget which one.

Ok, i can go with that, im not against this, however at the same time, their is times when i am doing things, if i am praising God and thanking God and talking to him while doing all the above listed stuff, sometimes i find it hard to focus on what i am doing, and then i feel i am giving God a deservice by not giving him my FULL attention.

In Way of a Pilgrim, which is now a classic of Orthodox Christianity, the pilgrim makes an analogy about this concern that you raised. I'll try to find where in the book it is, since my memory of it is spotty, but in the meantime, I hope this will give you something to think about:

1 Thessalonians 5:17 says, "Pray without ceasing." Patriarch Kallistos, whose words made it into the Philokalia (a compilation of mystical texts belonging to the Eastern Orthodox Christian monastic tradition), says the following:

Ceaseless prayer consists in constantly calling on the name of God, whether one is talking, walking, working, eating, or doing anything else; in all places and at all times it behooves us to call on the name of God.
​

This ceaseless calling on the name of the Lord is a way to bring ourselves before His presence.

Ahh, yes, finally found it! Here's the passage.

We can answer your question easily if we take into consideration the fact that those who pray constantly can be divided into three groups: (1) The beginners, (2) Those who have made some progress, and (3) those who have learned how to pray. The beginners can periodically raise their mind and heart to God and express a short vocal prayer even while they are engaged in mental work; and those who have made some progress in prayer or have attained certain recollection can do their intellectual work in constant awareness of God's presence, which is the basis of all prayer. This can be illustrated by the following example. Imagine that a very severe and exacting king commanded you to write an essay in some difficult subject in his very presence, at the feet of his throne. Now, no matter how completely engrossed you would be in your assignment, the presence of the king, who has authority over you and who has your life in his hands, would not allow you to forget even for a moment that you are not working alone, but that you are in a place which demands special reverence, respect, and propriety. This very real awareness of the presence of the king clearly illustrates the possibility of praying even while one is engaged in mental work.
​

So you see, praying while working is no disrespect to God; it is acknowledging that He is present in every corner of our lives, even while we work. Never does He become the "big man upstairs." Compartmentalizing our lives is what is disrespectful to God; ignoring Him while doing anything, telling Him "Not now, I'm busy working; you stay in this part of my life, but stay out of that one" is what is disrespectful. Giving Him as much attention as we can whenever we can is respectful to Him.

So i see myself compartmentalizing my life. When i pray, that means NOTHING else is going to be interupting me or having room for my time, i will be giving God my FULL attention. . .Remember it was said of King David "whatever your hand finds to do, do it with ALL your heart, for the Lord is with you".

Colossians 3:23-24 has a different version of what you quoted from Ecclesiastes 9:10, and it says "And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ."

So even here, we see that our work should be done for the service and glory of God. We should be serving Him even in our daily tasks and goings. Even this is a way of prayer and communion with Him.

 

[Shiranui117]

Do you mean he lets us do whatever and allows us to make decisions out of free will, or out of approval?

Free will. But there are certainly things we do that He would approve of.

I think what i am getting at is, what is your view on astral projection BY ITSELF, apart from motives, focus, or anything else. Is the actual thing itself aproved of God in your view? Some Christians call it witchcraft, the practice itself, but i can't see that.

I can see your point, but I can also see the point of what some Christians say. Actually leaving your body and going a ways away, having an out-of-body experience on purpose, and just having astral projections or out-of-body experiences for the sake of having them isn't right in my view. It opens up to too many distractions that can take us away from God.

Well, think of it for a moment, if we cursed God in our prayer, yes, that would be unsafe, here is why: It seperates us from him, and when we are seperated from him, satan can then get a foothold upon our mind, and that is UNSAFE. So my point stands that you don't have to leave your body in order to be unsafe spiritually.

True. But being honest with God is also a good thing. If Jesus told us to bless those who curse us, how much more do you think God does the same? We can hide nothing from God, Who made us. We don't have to put on our Sunday best with Him; He sees us even in our sins and temptations. He already knows what's in our minds and hearts, so why hide it from Him? Cursing God is being honest, and getting it off our chest to Him is even healthy; once we say precisely what we think and get it out there, God can take away that frustration and anger with Him, and burn it up, and it's as if it was never there! Then we can thank God and repent of our folly.

Relationships do turn rocky from time to time, and our relationship with God is no different. But breaking up with God is another matter entirely. Surely Satan does try to break up our relationship with God. But the rocky parts of the relationship with God will not destroy it; only our walking away from the relationship can destroy it.

ok, well based on your understanding of it now, i told you how astral projection is achieved, based on the techniques that i told you, you now briefly understand it, so, what do you see wrong in it if anything?

The Fathers have issues with imaginings and imagery in spiritual practice; even icons of Christ are avoided. Imageless prayer is considered purer, as imaginations are a construct of our fallen minds. We imagine things because we cannot comprehend them as they truly are. With very few exceptions, we envision things as they appear to be, not as they actually are. Appearances can be distracting and deceiving. The devil can come to us as an angel of light.

There is another reason why Orthodox and Christians in general shy away from out of body experiences. I mentioned the part about demonic influence, I think, and I know I've mentioned the chances for deception in leaving your body. But there is another reason; the separation of body and soul is unnatural. We were created as both body and soul, and they should not be divided. You do not have to leave your body to find communion with God; He is already closer to you than your own heart, and you don't have to leave your body or try and venture into the spirit world to find Him.

Silence your body to listen to your mind. Silence your mind to listen to your spirit. Silence your spirit to listen to your heart. Silence your heart to listen to Him Who dwells in your heart.

 

[Windwalker]

I found this explanation on another site dedicated to dream states just now that puts this in a clearer format what I was trying to express how that out of body experiences are not the same as astral projection:

A Non-Lucid Dream is an event that you don't know is a dream until you wake up.

A Lucid Dream is an event that you know is a dream while you are dreaming.

An Out of Body Experience is an event where you get the feeling of going out of your body. THIS COULD EITHER BE A DREAM OR A PARANORMAL EXPERIENCE. Whether it is one or the other Does Not Matter, because if you get the experience of leaving your body (in that you can actually see it), then you are having an OoBE.

An Astral Projection is an event where your mind actually (allegedly) leaves your body. It's not open for interpretation because, by definition, your consciousness is actually leaving your body, by way of the Astral Plane. Whether or not this phenomenon is real is in dispute, because it has never been scientifically verified.​

From here: Lucid Dream vs Out of body Experience vs Astral Projection?

I think in this discussion when we are speaking of "astral projection" we should be clear if we are speaking of an OBE, or simply astral projection. When I say I experience astral projection all the time, I am not referring to an OBE. What astral projection is to me, is allowing our consciousness to expand beyond our normal constriction, confined in our "heads" so to speak. This is not the same thing as the sensation of standing outside your body as seeing it detached from your conscious mind. That experience is an OBE. Astral projection in a sense is where our consciousness 'leaves the body' in the sense of 'seeing' beyond our normal set of eyes into a far more expansive domain of reality.

Do we see the difference?

So in this discussion, if we are speaking of OBEs, I don't see that they are necessarily spiritual in nature. To induce these deliberately then I would ask, what part of a spiritual path are they? What is the take away of an OBE versus astral projection?

 

[Shiranui117]

I found this explanation on another site dedicated to dream states just now that puts this in a clearer format what I was trying to express how that out of body experiences are not the same as astral projection:

A Non-Lucid Dream is an event that you don't know is a dream until you wake up.

A Lucid Dream is an event that you know is a dream while you are dreaming.

An Out of Body Experience is an event where you get the feeling of going out of your body. THIS COULD EITHER BE A DREAM OR A PARANORMAL EXPERIENCE. Whether it is one or the other Does Not Matter, because if you get the experience of leaving your body (in that you can actually see it), then you are having an OoBE.

An Astral Projection is an event where your mind actually (allegedly) leaves your body. It's not open for interpretation because, by definition, your consciousness is actually leaving your body, by way of the Astral Plane. Whether or not this phenomenon is real is in dispute, because it has never been scientifically verified.​

From here: Lucid Dream vs Out of body Experience vs Astral Projection?

I think in this discussion when we are speaking of "astral projection" we should be clear if we are speaking of an OBE, or simply astral projection. When I say I experience astral projection all the time, I am not referring to an OBE. What astral projection is to me, is allowing our consciousness to expand beyond our normal constriction, confined in our "heads" so to speak. This is not the same thing as the sensation of standing outside your body as seeing it detached from your conscious mind. That experience is an OBE. Astral projection in a sense is where our consciousness 'leaves the body' in the sense of 'seeing' beyond our normal set of eyes into a far more expansive domain of reality.

Do we see the difference?

So in this discussion, if we are speaking of OBEs, I don't see that they are necessarily spiritual in nature. To induce these deliberately then I would ask, what part of a spiritual path are they? What is the take away of an OBE versus astral projection?

This helps. I will now exclusively use "astral projection" for an expanded consciousness or awareness, and "out of body experience" for detaching soul from body.

 

[Windwalker]

*edit*

And you say this on what basis? Besides, no one who practices meditation really "empties the mind". You should inform yourself. Here's something to read from beliefnet for you: Meditation and Emptying the Mind - Beliefnet.com

*edit*

Experiencing God is a "worldly practice"? That's rich. And since when is experiencing God shallow and meaningless? Can I presume from this, you yourself never have?

*edit*

Exactly. Woe unto those who call good evil. Woe. :sad:

 

[Brickjectivity]

When you say releasing conscious control of your arareness, if i understand you correctly, i think you mean and are wondering if you astral project will you lose control of the experience?

I'm more concerned that I could lose my ability to discern reality from my own imagination or permanently alter my ability to concentrate or to exercise certain types of control. Its possible to want something too much, so that you begin to believe in things that don't exist -- start talking to 'Invisible people' etc. This is called hallucination, and whenever a person hallucinates they broaden a hole in their minds making it more easy to hallucinate and more difficult to focus upon reality. This results in worsening Math skills, conversational skills, abstract thought and various other kinds of productive thought. They can focus on the imaginary thing that they want, but when they try to think about other things it distracts them.

And if that is what your wondering, then it depends, if you control your thoughts, what you visualize, what you imagine, then you won't lose control. Pretty much, if you induce comming out of your body, that means you have allready fairly achieved mind control, so after your out of your body, you will already have a good level of control of your mind, thoughts and imagination, so you will be fine at that point. But keep in mind, sometimes the spirit realm has a little bit of a mind of it's own as well, but it's nothing too crazy that you won't be able to handle. Like their is different planes or levels within the spirit world or astral planes, each plain will make it appear like things are different. But when you first come out of your body you will be on the real time zone plane, so things will look like they would as if you were in your body, just you would be out of your body.

Basically, you will be fine, nothing to worry about for the most part that is.

Thanks, no I wasn't concerned about that. Whatever is present with me in the light is also present in the dark, and the only difference is what I can see at the moment. Darkness has no secrets in it if you remember what the light has already revealed. If one were to have a ghostlike self that could leave their body and fly about I don't see how it would introduce any hazards that were not already present before they did so.

 

[Brickjectivity]

If you think about this, you release this every night you go to sleep. Sweet dreams.

Thanks. Normally I don't remember my dreams, but lately I have been remembering some vivid dreams. I guess its better than dreaming about my own heartbeat, lungs and digestive tract. That would be a very long and boring dream.

 

[Jollybear]

Preparing the techniques for inducing an astral projection is different than the astral projection itself, and I'm sure that even you would agree with this. It's like learning to dive without first knowing what it's like to be in the water.

This is true: however, the water is not "unsafe", now true unsafe things can happen while your in the water, but the water (spirit world and projecting in it) is not what's unsafe. In the spirit world, their are different things going on, their is God, angels, souls of humans, demons, entities. One must be careful with whome they come in contact with and trust in that realm. That is the part that can become unsafe if one is not careful. But if you think projecting one's soul into the spirit realm is unsafe in itself, i beg to wonder how so?

Let me guess, most of the Christians you've talked to in person have all been Protestants, non-mystical Anglicans, or non-mystical Roman Catholics, right? Talking to those two groups is nothing like talking to an Orthodox Christian or a Catholic/Anglican versed in Christianity's rich mystical tradition.

Right, those are most of the christians i have talked to in person, now some of them have voiced to me they are not against spiritual experiences IF God sovorignly does it, but if you seek it, then that would be witchcraft, so they say. This to me seams to be a very DRY kind of christianity.

How does the body fall asleep while the mind is awake? What does it feel like? How do you know when you've done it? Should you be sitting or lying down, or even standing? I've heard of this, but I've never been able to figure out how it works.

Well, I have read two books on the subject of how to induce an out of body experience, and I have induced one, once, then i stoped because my goals changed, but i plan on maybe going back to it again soon, but before i do, i wanna be sure everything is clear and aproved of God, that is why i came on here to seek checks and balances from other people, to see different points, arguments and perspectives because by hearing other peoples thoughts, like yourself, i could perhaps come to see something I did not see before, which is important.

However, it's good to keep in mind in answer to your question, to not overcomplicate how this is done, it's actually quite simple, but does take work, but the methods are relatively simple. You can either do it laying down or sitting, standing up would not be preferable. Basically to keep the mind awake is like this: when you are dreaming, but your not aware that your dreaming, well your body is asleep, but your mind is semi awake, now the moment you become AWARE that your dreaming WHILE your dreaming, not after you wake up and become aware or remember what the dream was, but i am talking aware WHILE your having the dream, THEN your mind is FULLY awake, WHILE your body is fully asleep. So it feels like your body is totally asleep, it does not move, but your aware your dreaming, you can even CONTROL and paint the pictures of the landscape of the dream, that is how aware you are of the dream. That is how it feels. At this point, all one has to do is imagine comming out of their body, that's it.....and it magically happens after that. And then....it no longer looks like a dream, OR a lucid dream, it looks like real life as if you were awake. It's like me looking at the computer screen right now as im typing, it's real like that. Anyone who has an out of body experience, they KNOW it's not a dream, if someone is confused whether it was a dream or an out of body, then it was NOT an out of body, because when it is, you will KNOW it for sure.

Also, you don't have to "visualize" or "imagine" energy flowing through your body. It is flowing through your body. You just need to perceive it and be aware of it. Then again, I'm speaking as a person who believes in qi/ki/chi...

Right, pard me, i should have clarified. True, we don't have to visualize or imagine energy flowing through our body in order for it to do so, it's already flowing, but when you visualize it and imagine it, then you come to FEEL it flowing through you, that's the difference. For instance, if you touch the tip of your finger, the sense of touch is energy, but then if you visualize or imagine still touching the tip of your finger, even make it more intense by visualizing poking the tip of your finger with a needle over and over, for about 3 to five minutes, you will start to FEEL a tingling or a pulsating sensation at the tip of your finger. If you do this for your whole body, you will FEEL this in your whole body. Doing the whole body might take more then 3 minutes though, may take 30 minutes.

This does a few things, it sharpens the visualization skill and imagination skill and it relaxes the body and starts to unlock or loosen the soul from the body.

No. Sounds like a much smaller scale of someone getting caught up to the third heaven in one of Paul's Epistles, though I forget which one.

It was 2 corinthians 12:1-4. And yes, pretty much what i experienced was a out of body into just my bedroom, so in the real time zone of earth, but in the spirit realm, ON earth. So yes, it was a smaller scale of what Paul talked about.

In Way of a Pilgrim, which is now a classic of Orthodox Christianity, the pilgrim makes an analogy about this concern that you raised. I'll try to find where in the book it is, since my memory of it is spotty, but in the meantime, I hope this will give you something to think about:

1 Thessalonians 5:17 says, "Pray without ceasing." Patriarch Kallistos, whose words made it into the Philokalia (a compilation of mystical texts belonging to the Eastern Orthodox Christian monastic tradition), says the following:

Ceaseless prayer consists in constantly calling on the name of God, whether one is talking, walking, working, eating, or doing anything else; in all places and at all times it behooves us to call on the name of God.
​

This ceaseless calling on the name of the Lord is a way to bring ourselves before His presence.

Ahh, yes, finally found it! Here's the passage.

We can answer your question easily if we take into consideration the fact that those who pray constantly can be divided into three groups: (1) The beginners, (2) Those who have made some progress, and (3) those who have learned how to pray. The beginners can periodically raise their mind and heart to God and express a short vocal prayer even while they are engaged in mental work; and those who have made some progress in prayer or have attained certain recollection can do their intellectual work in constant awareness of God's presence, which is the basis of all prayer. This can be illustrated by the following example. Imagine that a very severe and exacting king commanded you to write an essay in some difficult subject in his very presence, at the feet of his throne. Now, no matter how completely engrossed you would be in your assignment, the presence of the king, who has authority over you and who has your life in his hands, would not allow you to forget even for a moment that you are not working alone, but that you are in a place which demands special reverence, respect, and propriety. This very real awareness of the presence of the king clearly illustrates the possibility of praying even while one is engaged in mental work.
​

So you see, praying while working is no disrespect to God; it is acknowledging that He is present in every corner of our lives, even while we work. Never does He become the "big man upstairs." Compartmentalizing our lives is what is disrespectful to God; ignoring Him while doing anything, telling Him "Not now, I'm busy working; you stay in this part of my life, but stay out of that one" is what is disrespectful. Giving Him as much attention as we can whenever we can is respectful to Him.

Ok, i'll go with that, so lets say we are not talking to him 24/7, but while we are doing our work, what would that look like being in communion, but not verbally talking?

Colossians 3:23-24 has a different version of what you quoted from Ecclesiastes 9:10, and it says "And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ."

So even here, we see that our work should be done for the service and glory of God. We should be serving Him even in our daily tasks and goings. Even this is a way of prayer and communion with Him.

So....just doing it whole heartedly, that is in itself communion? Do I understand?

 

[Jollybear]

Free will. But there are certainly things we do that He would approve of.

I can see your point, but I can also see the point of what some Christians say. Actually leaving your body and going a ways away, having an out-of-body experience on purpose, and just having astral projections or out-of-body experiences for the sake of having them isn't right in my view. It opens up to too many distractions that can take us away from God.

So..let me ask you this: why is it not right to have an out of body experience just for the sake of having one in your view? What would be those distractions that could take us from God just by having one?

To illustrate, i could just go for a walk, just for the sake of having one, would that take me away from God? Likewise, i could have an out of body experience, fly up in the sky, just for the sake of having one, the flying up in the sky is like going for a walk, what would be the distraction? How would it take away from God?

True. But being honest with God is also a good thing. If Jesus told us to bless those who curse us, how much more do you think God does the same? We can hide nothing from God, Who made us. We don't have to put on our Sunday best with Him; He sees us even in our sins and temptations. He already knows what's in our minds and hearts, so why hide it from Him? Cursing God is being honest, and getting it off our chest to Him is even healthy; once we say precisely what we think and get it out there, God can take away that frustration and anger with Him, and burn it up, and it's as if it was never there! Then we can thank God and repent of our folly.

ok....I get the part about honesty, yes God wants us to be honest with him, it's better to be honest and curse him then to lie by blessing him, but even the honesty in cursing him, if the person is kept in that state where they keep cursing God, that would be "unsafe" if they never got cleansed or repented of it. It's best to be honest in blessing him. That would be a "right standing relationship" with him. Anything that does not come into right standing relationship with him is on unsafe ground. So, that kind of praying would be unsafe, if kept that way, so in light of this, it's not just out of body experiences that are unsafe, this kind of praying, if kept that way, would be unsafe. So it's an honest heart, while blessing God that is safe and good, so likewise, why would their not be a safe kind of out of body experience?

The Fathers have issues with imaginings and imagery in spiritual practice; even icons of Christ are avoided. Imageless prayer is considered purer, as imaginations are a construct of our fallen minds. We imagine things because we cannot comprehend them as they truly are. With very few exceptions, we envision things as they appear to be, not as they actually are. Appearances can be distracting and deceiving. The devil can come to us as an angel of light.

True, but we can still imagine and invision something correctly. Their can be a false vision and a true one, a false imagination and a true one. We can see something as it really is or we can see something with blurry vision.

There is another reason why Orthodox and Christians in general shy away from out of body experiences. I mentioned the part about demonic influence, I think, and I know I've mentioned the chances for deception in leaving your body. But there is another reason; the separation of body and soul is unnatural. We were created as both body and soul, and they should not be divided. You do not have to leave your body to find communion with God; He is already closer to you than your own heart, and you don't have to leave your body or try and venture into the spirit world to find Him.

It may be unnatural to project from the body, but it being unnatural is not always a bad thing, for instance, going back to the gym analogy, it's not natural to do lots of repititions for the muscles and sets and tear up the muscle fibers, but it's good for them and makes them stronger and makes them last longer and raises matabolism. But then on the flip side, you could say it's natural, because what is natural? It's just having the ability to do that, that is natural. Natural is just something that is real. So, in that light, it would be natural to leave the body, if we define natural as real. But is it easy to leave the body? No, it takes work, so if we define unnatural as it's not easy to leave the body, then yea, it would be unnatural then, but so what? Lots of things in life are not easy, in that sense, not natural, does that mean it's bad or wrong to persue? Of course not.

As for projecting to find God, that is not the purpose, of course we can find God while in the body, we don't have to jump leaps and bounds to find him, his kingdom is near us, the purpose of projecting can be manifold, one to learn, to explore, to experience, to find out, to perhaps experience God further by DIRECTLY being IN the spirit realm, to experience him in a different level. Because you can experience God in many different ways. Another purpose of projecting could also be to find certain things out in locations either on earth or the spirit realm, to find information out that you have no means of extracting if you were in your body.

Silence your body to listen to your mind. Silence your mind to listen to your spirit. Silence your spirit to listen to your heart. Silence your heart to listen to Him Who dwells in your heart.

Give me an example of what that would look like?

 

[Jollybear]

*edit*

So we should not experience God? God is distant your saying? That must mean that Jesus death on the cross did not deal with the sin issue because God is still seperated from his people then huh? That's what it sounds like to me your saying.

 

[Jollybear]

I'm more concerned that I could lose my ability to discern reality from my own imagination or permanently alter my ability to concentrate or to exercise certain types of control. Its possible to want something too much, so that you begin to believe in things that don't exist -- start talking to 'Invisible people' etc. This is called hallucination, and whenever a person hallucinates they broaden a hole in their minds making it more easy to hallucinate and more difficult to focus upon reality. This results in worsening Math skills, conversational skills, abstract thought and various other kinds of productive thought. They can focus on the imaginary thing that they want, but when they try to think about other things it distracts them.

Thanks, no I wasn't concerned about that. Whatever is present with me in the light is also present in the dark, and the only difference is what I can see at the moment. Darkness has no secrets in it if you remember what the light has already revealed. If one were to have a ghostlike self that could leave their body and fly about I don't see how it would introduce any hazards that were not already present before they did so.

Ok, so your worried that if you had an out of body experience you would be hallucinating and you would want to make sure that is not what would be happening. Simple way to test it and many testimonies of people have tested it by doing this and it worked, which proved to them that it was not hallucination. The test is this: you make an agreement with a friend to fly over to his house and into his house while out of body, he is to have set up on his table in a particular room of both of your choosing certain objects, you are not to be told what they are. Then you must go their, look at the objects, go back to your body, get up, call your friend on the phone or whatever, and tell him what you saw. If what you describe is on the table, you KNOW for certain you were not hallucinating. Their is testimonies of this happening, so that rules out hallucination.

 

[Levite]

Wow, I had no idea this concept was something Christians got their knickers in a twist about. Live and learn.

 

[Shiranui117]

Wow, I had no idea this concept was something Christians got their knickers in a twist about. Live and learn.

What's the Jewish take on it, pray tell?

 

[Levite]

What's the Jewish take on it, pray tell?

We don't give it much thought, but it's not considered inherently evil. I said as much back here.

 

[Shiranui117]

We don't give it much thought, but it's not considered inherently evil. I said as much back here.

Oh, I completely forgot about that Oops. My bad.

 

[Windwalker]

May I ask for clarification? What is the take-away spiritual experience of out of body experiences (as contrasted with astral projection)? For instance, flying over the house of your friend, etc. What insights spiritually is derived from this? It seems you're just doing a sort of "remote viewing", as opposed to actually penetrating into spiritual insight and wisdom. What am I missing?

 

[Shiranui117]

This is true: however, the water is not "unsafe", now true unsafe things can happen while your in the water, but the water (spirit world and projecting in it) is not what's unsafe. In the spirit world, their are different things going on, their is God, angels, souls of humans, demons, entities. One must be careful with whome they come in contact with and trust in that realm. That is the part that can become unsafe if one is not careful. But if you think projecting one's soul into the spirit realm is unsafe in itself, i beg to wonder how so?

You mention that demons are in the spirit realm, and you say that you have to be careful with whom you come into contact, and you're wondering how the spirit world can be unsafe? Would you interact with an angel of light in the spirit world? Satan can come as an angel of light. We are a union of both flesh and spirit, our souls normally only separate from our bodies at death (which is unnatural to us), and you wonder why having out-of-body experiences is unsafe? Our souls are not meant to be divided from our bodies. God intended our souls/spirits to inhabit our bodies.

Right, those are most of the christians i have talked to in person, now some of them have voiced to me they are not against spiritual experiences IF God sovorignly does it, but if you seek it, then that would be witchcraft, so they say. This to me seams to be a very DRY kind of christianity.

Indeed. You should do a little research on Hesychasm sometime. You might find it very interesting.

It was 2 corinthians 12:1-4. And yes, pretty much what i experienced was a out of body into just my bedroom, so in the real time zone of earth, but in the spirit realm, ON earth. So yes, it was a smaller scale of what Paul talked about.

Reading over 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 again, what stands out to me is that being caught up to the third heaven wasn't necessarily an out-of-body experience; Paul doesn't know whether it was an OBE or not.

Ok, i'll go with that, so lets say we are not talking to him 24/7, but while we are doing our work, what would that look like being in communion, but not verbally talking?

Think like watching a movie with a friend, or your grandparents sitting out on the porch/patio together.

So....just doing it whole heartedly, that is in itself communion? Do I understand?

Doing it wholeheartedly for the glory of God, doing it to serve Him, and to redeem that experience to Him.

So..let me ask you this: why is it not right to have an out of body experience just for the sake of having one in your view? What would be those distractions that could take us from God just by having one?
Likewise, i could have an out of body experience, fly up in the sky, just for the sake of having one, the flying up in the sky is like going for a walk, what would be the distraction? How would it take away from God?

It bolsters our vanity, ego and pride.

To illustrate, i could just go for a walk, just for the sake of having one, would that take me away from God?

Yes. Even taking a walk for the sake of taking a walk distracts us from God. You can take a walk, and marvel at God's creation, and say with the Psalmist, "How manifold are Your works, O Lord; in wisdom have you made them all!" And in this, you are remembering God, and growing closer to Him, even by just taking a walk.

ok....I get the part about honesty, yes God wants us to be honest with him, it's better to be honest and curse him then to lie by blessing him, but even the honesty in cursing him, if the person is kept in that state where they keep cursing God, that would be "unsafe" if they never got cleansed or repented of it. It's best to be honest in blessing him. That would be a "right standing relationship" with him. Anything that does not come into right standing relationship with him is on unsafe ground. So, that kind of praying would be unsafe, if kept that way, so in light of this, it's not just out of body experiences that are unsafe, this kind of praying, if kept that way, would be unsafe.

Yes, because we would be walking away from God.

So it's an honest heart, while blessing God that is safe and good, so likewise, why would their not be a safe kind of out of body experience?

For reasons that I have already outlined.

True, but we can still imagine and invision something correctly. Their can be a false vision and a true one, a false imagination and a true one. We can see something as it really is or we can see something with blurry vision.

I think you missed my point. Unless we can capture the essence of something as it actually is (not what its physical appearance is or what its physical characteristics are), then the imagination is incorrect.

It may be unnatural to project from the body, but it being unnatural is not always a bad thing, for instance, going back to the gym analogy, it's not natural to do lots of repititions for the muscles and sets and tear up the muscle fibers, but it's good for them and makes them stronger and makes them last longer and raises matabolism. But then on the flip side, you could say it's natural, because what is natural? It's just having the ability to do that, that is natural. Natural is just something that is real. So, in that light, it would be natural to leave the body, if we define natural as real. But is it easy to leave the body? No, it takes work, so if we define unnatural as it's not easy to leave the body, then yea, it would be unnatural then, but so what? Lots of things in life are not easy, in that sense, not natural, does that mean it's bad or wrong to persue? Of course not.

Tell me, is it natural to jump off a bridge to your death? You have the ability to do that, and it's natural, if we define natural as real.

As for projecting to find God, that is not the purpose, of course we can find God while in the body, we don't have to jump leaps and bounds to find him, his kingdom is near us, the purpose of projecting can be manifold, one to learn, to explore, to experience, to find out, to perhaps experience God further by DIRECTLY being IN the spirit realm, to experience him in a different level. Because you can experience God in many different ways. Another purpose of projecting could also be to find certain things out in locations either on earth or the spirit realm, to find information out that you have no means of extracting if you were in your body.

And which of this information is important to our salvation?

Out-of-body experiences are also not necessary to contact God "more directly." All we need to do is pray with our eyes, ears and hearts open, and we will experience Him directly, come into contact with Him, commune with Him, and rest in Him.