Based on the premise that thoughts are spirit not substance

[savagewind]

You're not making sense again. All claims need evidence, especially claims that are about how the world functions. If you have no evidence, then your claim is baseless.


I hear you, your reasoning is just very poor, confusingly worded and lacking in any evidence.

Lacking in evidence? :areyoucra

 

[savagewind]

I shall try and reword it for everyone who does not speak my language.
Matter, which is the physical reality, is abundantly successful being complete. It's being complete has taken time and trial in a physical way. How did one bit of matter that was incomplete find the other bit it needed to be complete? We do not know. However it happened it demonstrates an amazingly cooperative spirit. But it doesn't have spirit. There might not be a word in English that describes accurately what it is that forms the bonds of matter.

On the other hand it takes no time, trial or even effort for two minds to agree on anything. Does anyone want to argue with me that human agreement is not rare?

 

[savagewind]

Two bits of dumb matter can "agree" that they should be together in a bond but the most intelligent minds that ever existed cannot come to agreement like dumb matter can.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I shall try and reword it for everyone who does not speak my language.
Matter, which is the physical reality, is abundantly successful being complete.

I didn't realize matter was ever incomplete. What do you mean?

On the other hand it takes no time, trial or even effort for two minds to agree on anything. Does anyone want to argue with me that human agreement is not rare?

I would, and I'm certain many would agree with me as well.

 

[savagewind]

I didn't realize matter was ever incomplete. What do you mean?

According to the bible man was made out of dirt. When man was dirt man was incomplete. When the particles in dirt were bonded together according to the plan the physical man was then complete.

What do you mean what do you mean? Did I answer the question?

 

[Gjallarhorn]

According to the bible man was made out of dirt. When man was dirt man was incomplete. When the particles in dirt were bonded together according to the plan the physical man was then complete.

What do you mean what do you mean? Did I answer the question?

No, you didn't. You are assuming the goal was to make man. Are atoms in themselves incomplete?

 

[painted wolf]

That is a good illustration. But like I said before twice, I did not say ideas never have affinity for each other. I said it is rare. Compared to the affinity of matter for each other, the affinity for ideas to work for the greater good is "poor". So the mindless physical reality is way way ahead of Man concerning getting things done.

One more time I shall say it is not impossible for the mind to get things done. It is the exception rather than the rule.

but all ideas have an affinity for other ideas and they build and grow over time... Which is why we are sending rovers to other planets and not still stuck in caves banging rocks together.

and what is the "greater good" anyway?

wa:do

 

[savagewind]

but all ideas have an affinity for other ideas and they build and grow over time... Which is why we are sending rovers to other planets and not still stuck in caves banging rocks together.

and what is the "greater good" anyway?

wa:do

Greater good is the survival of Earth and earth's species.

Please THINK of how many people there are on Earth. Then CONSIDER how few are proficient in things like "sending rovers to the moon". Even the ones who can calculate such things as space travel, are the same who cannot agree at home on simple things.

I am talking about the fact that dumb matter agrees on everything. Human agreement is very very rare. Do you agree? NO you do not. My point.

 

[idav]

Brains are matter. I am referring to all matter. I understand the brain which is matter originates thoughts. But thoughts are not matter. Thoughts are real to me. Maybe if thoughts are not real to someone the someone should not comment.

Real thoughts that are not matter do not cooperate to make something sensible. But matter does. Does no one think that is backwards?

Thoughts need matter because thoughts are contemplations on things that exist. A good example is when your counting objects. You look at the objects your though is that there are five and if you take two then three will be left. There is no room for these sort of thought if there is nothing to think about in the first place.

I'm not sure thoughts are matterless anyhow. Data is not formless and when analyzing the data to make sense of it the brain utilizes physical elements. Even the voice in our head comes from part of the brain or something stored in the brain in a tangible, retrievable form.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I am talking about the fact that dumb matter agrees on everything. Human agreement is very very rare. Do you agree? NO you do not. My point.

You are comparing Legos and skyscrapers.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Lacking in evidence?

Yes. If not, where is it?

I shall try and reword it for everyone who does not speak my language.
Matter, which is the physical reality, is abundantly successful being complete.

Nope, you're still failing to communicate clearly.

It's being complete has taken time and trial in a physical way. How did one bit of matter that was incomplete find the other bit it needed to be complete? We do not know.

You're still making no sense. In what sense is something "complete"?

However it happened it demonstrates an amazingly cooperative spirit. But it doesn't have spirit. There might not be a word in English that describes accurately what it is that forms the bonds of matter.

Physics, chemistry, biology. I suggest you look into them.

On the other hand it takes no time, trial or even effort for two minds to agree on anything. Does anyone want to argue with me that human agreement is not rare?

What does that have to do with anything? Why are you comparing the action of matter to the behavior of thinking organisms when you are already aware that these two things are entirely distinct? Where does your comparison lie? What, exactly, is your point?

Two bits of dumb matter can "agree" that they should be together in a bond but the most intelligent minds that ever existed cannot come to agreement like dumb matter can.

Again, what is with this inane comparison? Individual minds do not interact in the same way as matter does. So what? What's your point?

 

[savagewind]

You are comparing Legos and skyscrapers.

OK. Skyscrapers is what dumb matter can accomplish but intelligence is only at Legos so far. Right!

 

[Gjallarhorn]

OK. Skyscrapers is what dumb matter can accomplish but intelligence is only at Legos so far. Right!

No. Intelligence is a function of matter, which is highly developed in human brains.

As for your analogy to not being able to agree, ideas agree with one another all the time. A human is a composite of millions of ideas which become larger and larger and form complexes and religions and governments and novels. Fire and ice are ideas easily related and bonded in the mind. Islam and Buddhism is a bit like trying to get two humans to suddenly chemically bond to one another and form a composite creature with two heads and eight limbs.

 

[savagewind]

In what sense is something "complete"?

Something is complete whenever it can function to live.

Where is the evidence? LIFE is evidence enough for me.

Why are you comparing the action of matter to the behavior of thinking organisms when you are already aware that these two things are entirely distinct? Where does your comparison lie? What, exactly, is your point?

People say life evolved with no plan. Dumb matter found dumb matter and united, again and again many times, and resulted in very complex life as we know it. So dumb made something very grand. On the other hand the intelligence of humans have NOT united to make something grand. You might say what man has made is grand. We have a difference of opinion. Neither opinion is wrong. I will tell you an example. Are you from the USA? Do you know what grade the USA got for it's infrastructure? A D. How is that grand? The USA is doing much better than many other countries. USA got a D. Man has not been successful, even with MIND power behind him. All other life on Earth has been successful without MIND power behind it. That is according to all those who do not believe in Spirit. I believe it is God the Spirit who is the MIND that has cause success. Man will not acknowledge The Mind so man is failing.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Something is complete whenever it can function to live.

So nothing is complete except living organisms - all of which are "complete"?

Where is the evidence? LIFE is evidence enough for me.

The existence of life is not evidence of what process made it, just that life has been produced.

People say life evolved with no plan. Dumb matter found dumb matter and united, again and again many times, and resulted in very complex life as we know it. So dumb made something very grand.

Okay, now we're starting to get somewhere.

But what you're talking about is not evolution, it's abiogenesis.

On the other hand the intelligence of humans have NOT united to make something grand.

I strongly disagree. By what criteria does something count as "grand", exactly? I'd say humans have made a massive variety of extremely grand things.

You might say what man has made is grand. We have a difference of opinion. Neither opinion is wrong.

It depends entirely on how you define "grand".

I will tell you an example. Are you from the USA?

No.

Do you know what grade the USA got for it's infrastructure? A D. How is that grand? The USA is doing much better than many other countries. USA got a D.

So? What's your point? Where are you getting this from? What "grade"?

Man has not been successful, even with MIND power behind him. All other life on Earth has been successful without MIND power behind it.

That depends entirely on how you define success. You need to define your terms.

That is according to all those who do not believe in Spirit. I believe it is God the Spirit who is the MIND that has cause success. Man will not acknowledge The Mind so man is failing.

You're completely failing to make any kind of rational argument, here. I don't believe in spirits, but I will happily say that mankind has had a massive degree of success and achieved a great many amazing things. What do you mean that "man will not acknowledge the mind"?

 

[savagewind]

I strongly disagree. By what criteria does something count as "grand", exactly? I'd say humans have made a massive variety of extremely grand things.

Things do not make life on Earth better. Things strain life on Earth. Of all the things made there are relatively few that make for a better Earth and a more pleasant life for most people on Earth. The Mind knows how to fulfill Earth's potential for all living things. And btw, a living thing being complete when it can function to live imo does not mean that rocks can't be complete too. It is a lame argument. Two peas in a pod we are. LOL

I do not want to talk about my country's grade. It is way away off topic.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Things do not make life on Earth better.

Again, I disagree. You're making these very broad, sweeping statements. You need to be more specific.

Things strain life on Earth. Of all the things made there are relatively few that make for a better Earth and a more pleasant life for most people on Earth.

Medicine, agriculture, clothing, architecture, charity, mass production. There's a few.

I do not want to talk about my country's grade. It is way away off topic.

I didn't ask you to. I asked you to explain what this "grading" system is.

 

[savagewind]

Medicine, agriculture, clothing, architecture, charity, mass production. There's a few.

Charity is not a thing and mass production is the father of plenitude which is definitely straining the Earth. The other four are some of the "relatively few" things that have helped all mankind.

I am done arguing as I cannot stand people who say black and white can never be gray. I do not care that you do not know what grey is.

 

[savagewind]

After I considered my answer I have decided to change it. It is my opinion that agriculture and architecture may have caused more harm than good so far over all. So that leaves clothing. I think most people are glad for clothing. There are a few who are not.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

After I considered my answer I have decided to change it. It is my opinion that agriculture and architecture may have caused more harm than good so far over all. So that leaves clothing. I think most people are glad for clothing. There are a few who are not.

So food and shelter are bad things, but stuff to cover our naughty bits is okay.