Israeli using Palestinian Kids as Human Shields

[Jayhawker Soule]

Since you understand these distinctions, you must therefore understand that the intention to inflict punishment can coexist with, and subsume, the intention to minimize casualties. If the latter was primary over the former, Operation Cast Lead would not have been launched in the first place, since you don't minimize casualties by bombing one of the densest populations on the planet.

Perhaps I should give your cell phone a call, and tell you that I will destroy your house in 15 minutes, and furthermore that you should "take responsibility for yourself" (to use IDF wording) and stay away from other areas I might bomb. Don't worry, I'm not inflicting punishment on you .... I'm minimizing casualties. This is the colonialist mindset at its worst.

And this is bigoted spin at its worse.

 

[jazzymom]

Since you understand these distinctions, you must therefore understand that the intention to inflict punishment can coexist with, and subsume, the intention to minimize casualties. If the latter was primary over the former, Operation Cast Lead would not have been launched in the first place, since you don't minimize casualties by bombing one of the densest populations on the planet.

Perhaps I should give your cell phone a call, and tell you that I will destroy your house in 15 minutes, and furthermore that you should "take responsibility for yourself" (to use IDF wording) and stay away from other areas I might bomb. Don't worry, I'm not inflicting punishment on you .... I'm minimizing casualties. This is the colonialist mindset at its worst.

Then hamas should not place armaments, weapons nor shoot rockets at Israeli civilian populations.

Hamas uses schools, hospitals and has established its military arm in a very dense population.

The civilian population supports and lives among members of hamas.

Israel does what it can to minimize civilian death but they also have a right to self defense against the aggression of hamas.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

And this is bigoted spin at its worse.

Keep your head buried in the sand Jay, but if you want the rest of us to join it will require facts and reason instead of unsupported grumbling.

For the record, what I said about leaflets and cell phone calls comes straight from the IDF.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Then hamas should not place armaments, weapons nor shoot rockets at Israeli civilian populations.

Hamas uses schools, hospitals and has established its military arm in a very dense population.

The civilian population supports and lives among members of hamas.

Israel does what it can to minimize civilian death but they also have a right to self defense against the aggression of hamas.

Yes I know that is the argument but the facts do not support it.

Love them or hate them, the plain fact of the matter (as documented by the Israeli govt.) is that during the months of the ceasefire (July - October, 2008) Hamas lived up to its end of the bargain and almost entirely stopped rocket attacks from Gaza:

This is from here, according to data from official Israeli govt. sources.

The few rockets that got through during the ceasefire were fired by Fatah and other groups, in order to discredit Hamas. Hamas responded by arresting members of those groups. Israel responded by attacking members of Hamas. Israeli minister Tzipi Livni said (paraphrasing) "I don't care who fired". Clearly these are not the actions you would take if your #1 concern was to decrease rockets. Why not build on the success of July-October 2008? Rockets are at an all-time low, why would Israel jeopardize that by attacking Hamas? Hamas was the first democratically-elected ruling party of the Palestinians, and for the first time it was moving in a peace-and-reconciliation direction. Why not seize on that? Why not spur things on in that direction?

The answer is because the Israeli govt. simply refused to consider the possibility of peace and reconciliation with Hamas, rocket attacks or not. I view it as analogous to the U.S. embargo against Cuba. It is a stubborn policy which no longer makes any sense, in terms of helping Americans or Cubans. But historical hatreds keep it going anyway.

And, love it or hate it, the fact is the Israeli govt. further jeopardized the ceasefire by not living up to its end of the bargain: end the blockade. The easing of the blockade by Israel during those months was negligible. Instead the IG continued to make life intolerable for 2 million people, half of them children, effectively turning it into the world's largest open-air prison. It's no surprise that during the blockade, unemployment rose to 30% and reliance on humanitarian aid for survival went as high as 70%. The IG wouldn't even allow most exports from Gaza, which clearly targeted the economic welfare of Gazans and not the security of Israel (are they worried Hamas will send weapons OUT?) The IG restricted commercial fishing to within 3 miles off shore, no airports of course (that was banned long ago). The IG arbitrarily banned certain food imports like chocolate and coriander (but cinnamon was okay).

Clearly, this blockade was not just about the security of Israel, it was also about making life miserable for Gazans without starving them (which would be genocide). The blockade had no effect on rocket attacks (clearly--see graph above). The goal was to make life miserable for the people of Gaza as a way to undermine Hamas, which had to be destroyed, as I said above, whether it was firing rockets or not:

Israeli government officials now acknowledge the food restrictions were partly intended to put pressure on Hamas by making the lives of people in Gaza difficult, says the BBC's Jon Donnison in Gaza City.

In 2006, Israeli government adviser Dov Weisglass was widely quoted as having said: "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger."​

This is the heroically generous policy misleadingly described in the video on page 1 of this thread. You take away all means of a decent life for people, then you claim to be generous because you allowed the United Nations to deliver enough food to prevent the 2 million people you are holding prisoner from starving. That's a lot of food, therefore, we must be very generous. This strategy of punishing the people in order to undermine Hamas would reach its most extreme form in Operation Cast Lead: no longer were people being denied basics like chocolate, now their infrastructure and houses were being bombed and bulldozed. In fact 15% of the buildings in Gaza were destroyed, and remember this is one of the densest human populations on Earth. Even a police cadet graduation ceremony was bombed, killing 40 Gazans who, unlike many of their peers, managed to get a job (a job which at one time presumably involved stopping Fatah's rocket attacks against Israel, by the way). Personally I don't consider my local police officers valid targets in war, but these young men were associated with Hamas, and therefore they had to die. (It's worth noting that a total of eight Israelis were killed in the entire year of 2008, by all the rockets and mortars combined. Within the first 200 seconds of Operation Cast Lead, in the first wave of airstrikes, hundreds of Palestinians were killed, and hundreds more were wounded.) When the IG refused to end the blockade after a few months without rockets, Hamas predictably started firing again, thus giving the IG the necessary pretext for launching Operation Cast Lead, which it had been planning for many months.

None of this excuses the terrorist attacks by Hamas on Israeli civilians. I am only saying that the Israeli govt. actions were not those of a govt. whose #1 goal was to stop the rocket attacks. It's just like the U.S. embargo of Cuba, criticizing the U.S. govt. embargo is not an endorsement of the Cuban govt. You can argue that Hamas is so incredibly bad, it had to be undermined, it had to be de-legitimized, even if there were no rocket attacks, even if it meant punishing the civilians of Gaza. Fine. But own that argument. Don't pretend Operation Cast Lead was about protecting Israeli civilians from rocket attacks; that was secondary to preventing legitimization of Hamas.

I documented this all extensively in other threads, I'm too exhausted to do it again. For those interested in learning more I encourage you to read the many links I provided in this post, and read mainstream newspaper articles on the subject, none of this information is secret although sometimes it's just glossed over (as if collective punishment of a civilian population is a normal, acceptable practice).

 

[F0uad]

I can't give you frubals but thanks for the excellent post.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I can't give you frubals but thanks for the excellent post.

Thanks I appreciate that, it's a lot of work, sometimes I don't know why I bother ...

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I love how Jay calls my criticism of the policies of the Israeli government "bigoted".
I guess all the outstanding Jewish people writing for Haaretz, or the human rights organization B'Tselem, where my statements would be uncontroversial, are bigots, too?

What a cheap move. Present no facts of your own, just insinuate that I'm an anti-Semite. As it happens, my best friend since childhood happens to be Jewish, I stood at his side during his Bar Mitzvah and he at mine during my wedding, and his parents are like my own. As a kid I celebrated Passover and went to Temple with them. They happen to be the most wonderful, funny, smart, talented family I know. It also happens that my friend's grandmother survived a concentration camp in Poland. But more to the point: if in 2008 the Israeli government had followed the proposals of those of us on the Left (this includes of course the Jewish/Israeli Left), it would have saved innocent Israeli, Jewish, and Palestinian lives. That is why I, along with many Jews and Israelis, criticize the government policy. Not out of bigotry.

I criticize the U.S. government all the time for its reckless policies, does that make me a bigot against Americans? You should know better and frankly you should be ashamed, Jay.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Perhaps I should give your cell phone a call, and tell you that I will destroy your house in 15 minutes, and furthermore that you should "take responsibility for yourself" (to use IDF wording) and stay away from other areas I might bomb. Don't worry, I'm not inflicting punishment on you .... I'm minimizing casualties. This is the colonialist mindset at its worst.

And this is bigoted spin at its worse.

I love how Jay calls my criticism of the policies of the Israeli government "bigoted".

No, I called the above bigoted spin at its worse.

In roughly six weeks, God willing, I will be visiting a patient at a convalescent home in Be'er Sheva. Should terrorists in Gaza choose to target that city at that time, I will be warned by a siren and have literally seconds to locate and get to a shelter. I'm not at all confident in my ability to do so. I am absolutely sure that the woman I'll be visiting is wholly unable to accomplish this feat.

A phone call with a 15 minute warning would be deeply appreciated.

'Luckily' - since these rockets are episodic and directed against arbitrary civilian targets of which there are many, my odds of returning safely from my visit are extremely good.

The situation in Gaza is somewhat different. Mortars and rocket launchers are purposely located in densely populated civilian areas in great part because it creates a serious ethical problem for the IDF. Israeli, for its part, has limited options when faced with mortar/rocket attack. They can do nothing. They can attempt to immediately eliminate the threat. Or they can seek to mitigate the threat while minimizing civilian casualties.

The latter approach, employing radio broadcasts, leaflets, cellphone calls, megaphones, etc. has been the typical option of choice. This is true despite the fact that it also gives the terrorists time to relocate. And this you denigrate as colonialist mindset.

For what it's worth, I've been an active supporter of B'tzelem, Gisha, and the NIF for a number of years, I have been on their email feed for a number of years, and I cannot recall ever hearing them share your view. Nor, for that matter, do I recall reading anything like that in the pages of Haaretz, to which I also subscribe. Perhaps I missed it. But I have no doubt that, given your mindset, you'll assiduously search out such articles if they exist.

My regards to your Jewish friend. L'shalom.

 

[Revoltingest]

Thanks I appreciate that, it's a lot of work, sometimes I don't know why I bother ...

To derail the thread a little. It wears on one to weigh in on controversial topics, only to have the opposition's amen chorus launch into
the recurring name calling & demonization. If we disagree, let's explain why we disagree, instead of attacking the message bearer.
If one believes I'm delusional, paranoid, stupid or dishonest, it does no good to tell me that. Such abusive treatment has driven away
many value posters. Either we descend into sharing our harsh judgements of each other, or we honor the spirit of civil discourse.

Note: I often hear the excuse that the recipient of snark is imperfect.
There is no excuse to heap abuse.

 

[FearGod]

No, I called the above bigoted spin at its worse.

In roughly six weeks, God willing, I will be visiting a patient at a convalescent home in Be'er Sheva. Should terrorists in Gaza choose to target that city at that time, I will be warned by a siren and have literally seconds to locate and get to a shelter. I'm not at all confident in my ability to do so. I am absolutely sure that the woman I'll be visiting is wholly unable to accomplish this feat.

A phone call with a 15 minute warning would be deeply appreciated.

'Luckily' - since these rockets are episodic and directed against arbitrary civilian targets of which there are many, my odds of returning safely from my visit are extremely good.

The situation in Gaza is somewhat different. Mortars and rocket launchers are purposely located in densely populated civilian areas in great part because it creates a serious ethical problem for the IDF. Israeli, for its part, has limited options when faced with mortar/rocket attack. They can do nothing. They can attempt to immediately eliminate the threat. Or they can seek to mitigate the threat while minimizing civilian casualties.

The latter approach, employing radio broadcasts, leaflets, cellphone calls, megaphones, etc. has been the typical option of choice. This is true despite the fact that it also gives the terrorists time to relocate. And this you denigrate as colonialist mindset.

For what it's worth, I've been an active supporter of B'tzelem, Gisha, and the NIF for a number of years, I have been on their email feed for a number of years, and I cannot recall ever hearing them share your view. Nor, for that matter, do I recall reading anything like that in the pages of Haaretz, to which I also subscribe. Perhaps I missed it. But I have no doubt that, given your mindset, you'll assiduously search out such articles if they exist.

My regards to your Jewish friend. L'shalom.

What about the American girl Rachel Corrie,why she was killed by the Israeli soldiers.

Was she holding gun,was she launching rockets,was she a terrorist.

[youtube]UK8Z3i3aTq4[/youtube]
Rachel Corrie 5th Grade Speech I'm here because I care - YouTube

She moved to Gaza to protect children and support palestinians

[youtube]O3JI-axaRF4[/youtube]
Rachel Corrie - Interview - YouTube

What happened to here then

[youtube]SHCJ-wUIPV0[/youtube]
My name is Rachel Corrie | Remember Rachel Corrie - YouTube

Critics have accused Israel of committing the crime of apartheid; In a 2007 report, United Nations Special Rapporteur for Palestine John Dugard stated that "elements of the [state of Israel's] occupation constitute forms of colonialism and of apartheid, which are contrary to international law." and suggested that the "legal consequences of a prolonged occupation with features of colonialism and apartheid" be put to the International Court of Justice.[16]

Reference : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_apartheid

So what other choices is left for Gaza other than Gun and rockets to protect their families.

[youtube]82cYaRJQFV4[/youtube]
Hamas nasheed Qassam-Men eng english sub - YouTube

CrossTalk on Israel-Gaza conflict.

[youtube]1S8DaGl6YG0[/youtube]
CrossTalk on Israel-Gaza conflict: Gates of Hell (ft. Norman Finkelstein) - YouTube

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What about the American girl Rachel Corrie,why she was killed by the Israeli soldiers.

Horribly and, to the best of my knowledge, without reason. Thanks for sharing.

Shall we now talk about Itamar or return to the OP?

 

[FearGod]

Horribly and, to the best of my knowledge, without reason. Thanks for sharing.

Shall we now talk about Itamar or return to the OP?

My post is in line with the topic,

isn't it about Palestine & Israel.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Again, what happened to Rachel Corrie was a horrible tragedy.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

...Israeli, for its part, has limited options when faced with mortar/rocket attack. They can do nothing. They can attempt to immediately eliminate the threat. Or they can seek to mitigate the threat while minimizing civilian casualties.

The latter approach, employing radio broadcasts, leaflets, cellphone calls, megaphones, etc. has been the typical option of choice. This is true despite the fact that it also gives the terrorists time to relocate. And this you denigrate as colonialist mindset. ...

You have neglected the most obvious option to reduce rocket attacks: abide by the terms of the ceasefire and end the blockade (by which I mean that part of the blockade not intended to block weapons, but to "put the Palestinians on a diet"). Again look at the graph of rocket attacks in my last post, and consider what you would do if your absolute #1 concern was to reduce rocket attacks.

Like you, the Israeli govt. did not even consider this third and most obvious option, because it was said that it would "legitimize" Hamas and they had already been planning Operation Cast Lead for 6 months (even before the ceasefire). They had already decided Hamas had to be destroyed long ago, and this prevented them from seizing an opportunity for peace when Hamas actually did shift away from terrorism.

And no I did not "seek out" articles that support my opinion on Gaza in Haaretz and B'Tselem. You're flailing. I sought ought articles about Gaza. After I read those articles, I came to my current opinions. If you would care to do the same, you would find, for example:

The siege on the Gaza Strip: 1.5 million people imprisoned

Since June 2007, when Hamas seized control of the Gaza Strip, Israel has imposed a tight blockade on the area. According to Israeli officials, the objective of the siege is to bring down the Hamas government and lead to the release of Gilad Shalit. The siege thus constitutes collective punishment of the civilian population, and as such it is unlawful.
...
Under agreements between Israel and Egypt, the Gaza Strip's foreign trade must be conducted through Israel. The quantity of goods that Israel allows into the area is less than one-quarter the quantity that entered prior to the siege, and far below the amount required for the population's needs. The range of goods that Israel allows in is also much smaller: 150 types of goods compared with 4,000 before the siege.
...
The siege also severely impairs the supply of electricity in the Gaza Strip. Since September 2007, when Israel declared the Gaza Strip a “hostile entity” following the firing of Qassam rockets, Israel has cut reduced the supply of industrial fuel, which is needed to operate the power station in Gaza. Following a petition filed by the NGOs Gisha and Adalah, the state agreed to supply some 63 percent of the fuel needed to meet all the residents' needs. In practice, however, it provides less than this quantity. As a result of Israel's policy, 98 percent of Gaza residents suffer from planned blackouts lasting up to eight or ten hours a day.
...
The water supply is defective, and thousands of residents are not even connected to the water grid. Waste treatment has also been affected: every day, some 100,000 cubic meters of untreated, or partially untreated, wastewater flow into the sea.
...
Prior to the siege, seventy trucks with goods intended for export, such as furniture, clothes, and agricultural produce, left the Gaza Strip daily. Israel currently prohibits almost all exports.
...
Israel's policy has led to economic collapse in Gaza. The prohibition on bringing in raw materials and on exports has led to the closing of 95 percent of the factories and workshops in the area. Tens of thousands of persons have lost their livelihood, and unemployment now exceeds 40 percent. As a result, more than 70 percent of the population depends on aid from international organizations to obtain food. In 2007, humanitarian aid amounted to 3 percent of imports; by 2009, this figure had risen to 26 percent.

-B'Tselem, May 31, 2010

That's pretty much exactly what I said, isn't it? So this accusation that I somehow cherry-picked Haaretz and B'Tselem is just flailing and wishful thinking on your part.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That's pretty much exactly what I said, isn't it?

Actually, no.

 

[WyattDerp]

I recently saw a Chomsky thing about Gaza ( Noam Chomsky Addresses the Gaza Crisis | MIT Video ) and unless I horribly misremember this, he mentioned that the IDF does the same, but not in the sense of the OP, but simply because they put their military command centres smack dab into population centres.

But then again, Israel isn't that huge; where to put stuff? And doesn't that doubly go for Gaza? It's a tiny, cramped ghetto, how can you even throw a rock without being next to civilians? That doesn't excuse doing it on purpose, and it doesn't excuse lobbing rockets at school buses and whatnot. But still, how exactly would a "clean", purely military fight with the IDF look like? Maybe donate them uniforms, and go halfsies on the military aid Isreal is receiving from the US, maybe that would help? (no, I don't mean that seriously, I'm being absurd to point out how ******* absurd all of this is already)

 

[Assad91]

If only ksa and other "islamic" countries would fight, Palestine wouldnt be occupied and persecuted by imperialist.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... like Jordan and Lebanon.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Jay,

Please explain how B'Tselem's criticism of the unlawful, collective punishment of a civilian population inflicted on Gaza by the Israeli government differs significantly from my view.

Also, please provide evidence that the following is anything but baseless flailing on your part:

For what it's worth, I've been an active supporter of B'tzelem, Gisha, and the NIF for a number of years, I have been on their email feed for a number of years, and I cannot recall ever hearing them share your view. Nor, for that matter, do I recall reading anything like that in the pages of Haaretz, to which I also subscribe. Perhaps I missed it. But I have no doubt that, given your mindset, you'll assiduously search out such articles if they exist.

For what it's worth, here are actual articles from Haaretz:
Then came Cast Lead in Gaza - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper
http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-...ssons-of-operation-cast-lead.premium-1.478228

Oh but I guess my mindset must have assiduously searched out those articles .... that's a very convenient hypothesis, since it can't be disproved. No matter what evidence I provide, you can dismiss me and my "bigoted spin" and my "mindset" and thereby rationalize keeping your head planted firmly underground.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

FearGod,

I have to say that one of the videos you posted, which sings a song praising the Qassam men, is truly despicable. The idea that violence against Israel, and Israeli civilians in particular, will solve anything is not only unethical, it's also incredibly stupid and self-destructive.